FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 45 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 6
AndyLA 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Recent Posts
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35572 Topics
432478 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#308488 - 12/17/06 12:35 PM how hard do you hit a pp
princeofleaves Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 1
how hard are you supposed to hit a pp

Top
#308489 - 12/17/06 05:29 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: princeofleaves]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Depends. You need to mix yin and yang. If you hit all hard, uke tightens up and nothing works. Some points you just touch. Some you rub or twist. Some you hit lightly. In practice including practice KO work, of course, don't hit anyone harder than you yourself would want to be hit. Come to an agreement with your uke. You are generally practicing back and forth with someone of similar skill.

When your life depends on it, make your hard strikes harder. You just can't practice that way except on a Bob or on a bag or focus pad.

It isn't about hard though most of the time. It is about technique and targeting. You want to hit in a relaxed manner that transfers the energy into the point.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#308490 - 04/26/07 07:44 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
Angharad_Rhydd Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Wales
You don't always hit a pressure point though. Some pressure points liuke to be hit, some like to be pressed, and some like to be rubbed. A bit like people really.

Top
#308491 - 04/27/07 07:09 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Angharad_Rhydd]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
True.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#308492 - 07/13/07 05:30 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
practica Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/09/03
Posts: 19
If you're training? Do whatever it takes to activate the point as lightly as possible. Work on not looking at the point as well if you can so that you can start to locate them by touch. Just get a result, a tingle, a slight burn etc, as if you go bashing each other you're going to have very short training sessions.

Top
#308493 - 10/31/07 05:20 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: practica]
Russell_Stutely Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 22
In a fight .... as hard as you possibly can.

To say that Points do not work if struck too hard is one of the many myths put about by certain groups.

Simple test... hit a point.. then hit it harder and see if it hurts less or more!

Regards

Russell
_________________________
Russell Stutely www.russellstutely.com

Top
#308494 - 12/03/07 12:43 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Russell_Stutely]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In a fight .... as hard as you possibly can.

To say that Points do not work if struck too hard is one of the many myths put about by certain groups.
Simple test... hit a point.. then hit it harder and see if it hurts less or more!


THAT, is the funniest (I.E. "un"accurate) thing I've read so far....

Top
#308495 - 12/05/07 09:41 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
why is that inaccurate? it's simple physics. given any specific target and surface area, if there is more force transmitted, there will be more damage.

thats the danger of the magic button theorists...they get so caught up in trying to learn how to drop someone with a light tap, that they avoid the much more difficult training of learning efficient power generation.

Top
#308496 - 12/05/07 11:00 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
Anonymous
Unregistered


“why is that inaccurate? it's simple physics. given any specific target and surface area, if there is more force transmitted, there will be more damage.

thats the danger of the magic button theorists...they get so caught up in trying to learn how to drop someone with a light tap, that they avoid the much more difficult training of learning efficient power generation. “

Because it ignores the idea of a “Kyusho” point. “physics” is not the correct concept. If that were the case, then whom ever is Bigger, stronger would always be the victor in a given situation. “Kyusho” translates as “vital point”. There is no implication as to how, or why (this is for the individual to determine) I illustrate to my students all the time “kyusho” points which cause no pain in and of themselves, but without contact with, the technique would fail utterly. “Knock-outs” are a very small part of Kyusho techniques. Pain or unconciesness (in and of itself) is not always the desired reaction.

Top
#308497 - 12/05/07 08:10 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
flawed logic. you assume that just because someone can hit very hard that they don't know where to hit?

take two people the same size and age who have equally studied kyusho the same number of years - one strikes with mediocre impact, the other strikes with twice the force.

which strike does more damage?

last time I checked, 'force' in this case is an exact match to the representation of 'force' in physics.


by the way, I hate to break this to you, but if everything else is equal, bigger and stronger actually DO have a significant edge.

Top
#308498 - 12/05/07 09:48 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
Anonymous
Unregistered


“flawed logic. you assume that just because someone can hit very hard that they don't know where to hit?”
Actually, it isn't “flawed logic” the statement was “given any specific target and surface area” that (in and of itself) implies ANY target point. It returns to “desired effect”. You seem to be obsessed with causing great physical damage with any strike.(which I've often found to be an unnecessary effort)

“take two people the same size and age who have equally studied Kyushu the same number of years - one strikes with mediocre impact, the other strikes with twice the force.”
Again, you assume, that ALL Kyushu points are struck with force (presumably to cause trauma)
And, if both of these individuals have been studying this, why would there even be a confrontation? (the whole scenario seems improbable)

“which strike does more damage?”
again, “damage” may not be my desired effect

“last time I checked, 'force' in this case is an exact match to the representation of 'force' in physics.
by the way, I hate to break this to you, but if everything else is equal, bigger and stronger actually DO have a significant edge.”
If everything else is equal, the confrontation most likely wouldn't occur...and I've never seen an “everything is equal” confrontation.
By your logic, there's no point in even studying any martial art ,just work out at the gym more and muscle your way through life. Of course when you get older, you'll get your a$$ kicked a lot more, but that fits your bigger/stronger is better view.
I work extensively with L.E. That attitude doesn't fly at all ( And the courts don't see it that way either) And again, damage is not always the desired effect/outcome.

Top
#308499 - 12/05/07 10:17 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you are changing your premise in order to stay in the argument. I never said stronger and larger is better. I said if you have two people of equal age and training years, the stronger one will tip the balance to his/her favor as far as odds.


someone earlier wrote:
"Simple test... hit a point.. then hit it harder and see if it hurts less or more!"

then you wrote in response: "THAT, is the funniest (I.E. "un"accurate) thing I've read so far.... "


so, what is inaccurate? if you hit a point harder why wouldn't it hurt more?


or if you aren't going for damage, if you press a point with more pressure, why wouldn't it hurt more?



but if you aren't trying for pain, damage or KO...then what effect are you trying for? to scare your opponent away or buy him a beer?


Top
#308500 - 12/06/07 03:28 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
Anonymous
Unregistered


someone earlier wrote:
"Simple test... hit a point.. then hit it harder and see if it hurts less or more!"

then you wrote in response: "THAT, is the funniest (I.E. "un"accurate) thing I've read so far.... "

“so, what is inaccurate? if you hit a point harder why wouldn't it hurt more?
or if you aren't going for damage, if you press a point with more pressure, why wouldn't it hurt more?”
What is “inaccurate” is the the very broad statement that striking “any” point harder is more productive (or even necessary). For some points, it may be an accurate statement, but for many, an unnecessary exertion. And wasted motion and energy is pointless (if not detrimental,... you wear out faster).
My main point being, not all points are utilized to elicit a “pain/damage” reaction.

“but if you aren't trying for pain, damage or KO...then what effect are you trying for? “
Immobilization,and/or “activation” (pain is not a necessary factor, I.E. Suspect is on drugs, doesn't feel pain) as long as you have them immobilized, they are not a threat). Pummeling someone is pointless if no pain is being felt. Even something simple, like placement of a hand on a shoulder (prior to a knee spear to the thigh) need not be done with any force, yet is necessary to make the thigh strike most effective (in that it “activates the muscles/nerves in the thigh prior to the strike).

Top
#308501 - 12/06/07 10:36 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'm with Shujika. KO is not the whole picture. Hitting hard is not the whole picture. A lot of take-downs and tuite work better with pressure points. Many practitioners learn them with pressure points without any detail given them as to the name of the point. They are shown something like, "press here" or "do it this way it works better".

Hitting harder does hurt worse. When I practice, I hit people lightly because I like them. They are my practice partners and friends. When I need to defend myself for real, I will hit harder. Hitting lightly also makes me practice the proper technique of penetrating power and getting it right very efficiently. If you hit hard enough, I suppose any point will work, even if your targeting is wrong and your striking technique is terrible.

Kyusho players DO practice to learn to generate power. Why would anyone assume we don't? "they"... Who is they? avoid the much more difficult training of learning efficient power generation." That is quite an allegation. Fortunately, it doesn't apply to anyone studying Kyusho that I know.

All things being equal, (whatever that means since all things are never equal), bigger and stronger has an advantage. That is why I am the under-dog and collect techniques that work more efficiently for us older, weaker, smaller, more female types. Yup I'd trade anything to be younger, stronger, bigger and a male type. Significant edge is an under-statement.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#308502 - 12/07/07 06:28 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think everyone would agree that different points/areas have various effects. thats not the argument....


Is this true or false:
if you take one point A and hit or press it lightly - it will not be the same effect as hitting/pressing that same point very hard.

Top
#308503 - 12/07/07 07:40 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

Quote:


What is “inaccurate” is the very broad statement that striking “any” point harder is more productive (or even necessary). For some points, it may be an accurate statement, but for many, an unnecessary exertion. And wasted motion and energy is pointless (if not detrimental, you wear out faster).





I tend to disagree. In self-defence situation if something has to be struck then it would be hard and fast.
Depending on where the strike is aimed would determine with which part of the anatomy the part would be struck with.
Quote:


My main point being, not all points are utilized to elicit a “pain/damage” reaction.




In a self defence situation
The only other ones I can think of would be to strike to cause numbness.
Quote:


“But if you aren't trying for pain, damage or KO...then what effect are you trying for?
Immobilization,and/or “activation” (pain is not a necessary factor, I.E. Suspect is on drugs, doesn't feel pain) as long as you have them immobilized, they are not a threat)




Could I ask how is that going to happen?
Self defence situation.
Joint locks? Chokes? If they cant feel pain and you put them in a lock they will struggle? Can I ask what do you understand as activation?
Quote:


Pummelling someone is pointless if no pain is being felt. Even something simple, like placement of a hand on a shoulder (prior to a knee spear to the thigh) need not be done with any force, yet is necessary to make the thigh strike most effective (in that it “activates the muscles/nerves in the thigh prior to the strike).




I can’t see that.
Again in a self-defence situation. Pummelling works regardless if they feel pain or not. It would depend where a person is pummelled. Attack is the best form of defence

If I am attacked and I can get my hand any where near the persons shoulder I wouldn’t be putting it there and it wouldn’t be the knee I would be going for at first. Unless that was the only choice.
I think to do such things requires good body conditioning.
Also body strikes wouldn’t work to well against some one with body conditioning.
The weak areas if the situation is justified are the face and the neck.

Top
#308504 - 12/08/07 08:12 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: jude33]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I like pummeling. Pummeling in self defense is a good thing. Pummel the head. Get there as fast as you can and pummel it until the aggressor falls down.

If someone is going to attack me so that it is a self defense situation, they are picking on me because they think I am easy prey. I will not act like prey. Whatever my opportunity is, I will find and exploit it. I will hit the right points and hit them HARD, CORRECTLY and AS MUCH AS I CAN, until I believe that I can get away safely.

This will not be the time to "set things up" nicely like a demo KO. I have been selected for aggressive treatment because I am supposed to be an easy victim. Any strike I land has to be the one that will save my life. If a body strike or arm strike comes first, OK, I have a set up. I'm betting my life on hitting hard.

In the process, my first strike may be light. I have been taught that mixing Yin and Yang is a good thing. A light strike sets the body up to receive the stronger strike. That is nice. That will encourage me at the time to know that even the closed in cramped strike might have utility.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#308505 - 12/08/07 09:20 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




You seem to be obsessed with causing great physical damage with any strike.(which I've often found to be an unnecessary effort)







Totaly dissagree.
For use in self defence situations.
The unneccesary effort part might good be for marketing to a person who might be deemed unfit and unconditioned therefore cant keep the strikes going. Perhaps this is the marketing strategy of some people. Martial arts training is meant to improve the unfit and unconditioned. This isnt a critisism its a fact.


The striking points for self defence applications of kyushu I have looked at on charts seem to be the same target areas taught( please note I am saying trad karate) if trad karate was used in self defence.

If certain areas were struck by someone who couldnt/didint strike hard what exactly do you think the attacker is going to do? He will fight harder. Do you honestly think that will set some one up for the next strike?

Perhaps you could give some instances?
I presume your not talking about any form of distractions that wouldnt make contact anyhow?

With all due respect sir I think your dreaming.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/08/07 09:38 AM)

Top
#308506 - 12/12/07 09:59 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina


Right on, Roseanne... I was hitting "Bob" the other day, and (of course) very accurately... but just knocking the bejesus out of it. One of the "kempo" teachers came over and said "If you hit somebody like that, you'll kill them!"...

I walked away singing... "The object of my affection, is in the house of correction... he beat me 'til I died"...

Don't just "hit" pressure points... bury them. If you're doing dim mak techniques, the angles, timing, etc. are all important. If you're just using them as self defense... knock the skin off'em... or "knock'em out the other side".

Dim mak is a skill application... atemi is a force application... so knock their lights out... don't be spoiled by success...

As for "pummeling", Roseanne, I agree. Pound'em til they stop moving, and then knock them out of the way...

Like Democrats voting, do it early and often... Hit at your first opportunity, stop when somebody else grabs your hands...and utters "soothing words"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#308507 - 12/14/07 11:23 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

why is that inaccurate? it's simple physics. given any specific target and surface area, if there is more force transmitted, there will be more damage.





Can't argue with that, logically anyway.

Quote:

“Kyusho” translates as “vital point”. There is no implication as to how, or why (this is for the individual to determine) I illustrate to my students all the time “kyusho” points which cause no pain in and of themselves, but without contact with, the technique would fail utterly. “Knock-outs” are a very small part of Kyusho techniques. Pain or unconciesness (in and of itself) is not always the desired reaction.




Vital points, press or push points, and anywhere on the body hurts MORe when you hit it harder. There's no way around that whatsoever.

Dude, learn to use the quote function!!

Click the quote icon in the instant ubb code box. Then copy and paste what you want quoted.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#308508 - 12/14/07 11:57 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Russell_Stutely]
jbrown2130 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 7
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

In a fight ....





I think the arguement all comes back to that. You guys can train to fight like you like, but I'm going to tell you that I'm not going to be doing a lot of "setting up" or "numbing" or tweaking this or that for a response. If I can end a fight in ONE strike. I'm going to.

I agree with hitting it. hard.

Top
#308509 - 12/26/07 09:22 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: jbrown2130]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Just for a matter of fact, nothing taught in pressure points is designed for you to use them specifically and exclusively for self defense. They are "supplemental" techniques, that add to your ability to fight, and nothing precludes you from knocking somebody's lights out if you have the opening. That would be my choice too... but if I was having a problem with someone, I would rather set up the pressure points and use them than continue to fight endlessly with someone skilled.

Raking a block down someone's arm, or stepping on points in their foot might have a better chance than the "knockout" from one punch you're looking for... but become available if you've properly set them up and continue to fight. Hell, karate was designed to deliver force, and no one is suggesting other than that... pressure points are places on the body where specific strikes can disable and disorient people to the point of rendering them unconcious... so the use of pressure points is always an option.

If I had one opening in a fight, and could only deliver one punch, I'd like it to be on my choice of pressure points... because I know what they'll do and where the fight will go from there. What is missing from most kyusho studies these days, is the "structural side" of pressure point striking. Blocking against the extended elbow "against it's natural fold", and striking the side of the knees are also "kyusho" strikes... and many schools don't recognize the "karate side" of kyusho, or the use of the "points" to manipulate someone into jujutsu techniques. I have absolute confidence in what "point striking" can do... I've been doing it for years. It works and works well.

What doesn't work is trying to turn it into some kind of magic potion that you sprinkle during a fight like "pixie dust" to render your opponent helpless. It's a study of fighting technique just like blocking, punching, and kicking, and it simply uses the autonomic nervous system to do some of its work. The rest are "direct effect" points.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#308510 - 12/27/07 08:48 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I agree. The former wisdom in my school was that we had to be black belts before we could study kyusho. Now there is a rationale for changing that, and I do respect it. However, when one had to be at least Shodan before studying Kyusho, there was less liklihood of trying to work pressure point techniques in the absense, or instead of, good basic martial arts technique. Use good karate FIRST, then add the pressure point menu.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#308511 - 12/27/07 11:30 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Like everything that's "parsed out" and "spoon fed", there is no separation of "karate" and "pressure points". They are both one and the same art.

Kyusho-jitsu means "methods of striking the body"... it identifies targets, sequences of hits, defined targets and methods of striking particular points and generally how to hit any specific point for the "desired effect"... a la "dim mak"...

Take Dillman's book (any one) and point out any place that isn't a target for a karate strike. Take any kata and do the bunkai, and point out any points that are struck that aren't part of the "points" chart. Why... to define the "level of understanding" you need to learn pressure points.

If you couldn't hit a bull in the a$$ with a broom... studying the points on a bull that would create havoc wouldn't do you any good until you learned to hit with the broom. Same goes for karate... and kyusho-jitsu... if you have no skills to use, all the point knowledge in the world won't make you proficient if your techniques suck.

Luckily, I've had good teachers... teachers who didn't try to separate knowledge to have something to sell, but taught the complete art from the beginning to the end. When I was taught to block, I was taught the points that made those blocks effective... not "push point tw-6"... but "when striking with your block, hit this point and it will disable your attacker".

Now I know that's simplistic, but it's effective. The names of pressure points and their meridian names followed as more knowledge of the body was attained... but simply giving everybody the "map" of the meridians and a "chart" isn't teaching them anything. You have to have the correct techniques to get into the specifics of point striking.

My method is to divide the body into thirds... the two thirds that contain "limbs, are usually struck with more than two techniques.. i.e. a parry, grab and then a strike, etc. The center third of the body is usually struck with fist, elbow, knee or foot as the result of a block... a "clearing out" technique first, then a strike. Do your kata and see how that works for you...

Some of the basic things that used to be taught, such as "pressing down" on your opponent's technique hasn't been taught for a long time. "Snapping palm strikes" also seem to be a thing of the past... since they had specific uses in hitting points, but not in tournament striking. Next time you do kata, stay in contact with your uke throughout the kata... once you block, keep pressing down on their technique and ride their technique to the next technique of your kata. A whole world of pressure point knowledge will open up to you.

If training is all balled up, it's because people have tied training to money, and money to information... the more money you spend... you get the picture.

I see people train all the time that spend hundreds and thousands of dollars and don't know squat about either fighting, their art or actually have any developed fighting skills because they haven't been given the information... and "information" translates not just to locations, but to teaching the skills necessary to make the points work.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#308512 - 12/28/07 05:27 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You have familiarity with more schools and ways of teaching than I have. I believe that most of my education has been integrated. For example, in the lower color ranks there waw a drill called "arm destructions". The point of the drill was to train striking painful stopping points on the arms as uke delivered straight in punches or hooks. What the student doesn't know at the time, is that they are hitting pressure points.

Similarly, it is hard to teach tuite without pressure points and obviously, color ranks need tuite, so they get the pressure point instructions without much ado about names of other information about the pressure points indicated for them.

I believe that total integration all the way through would make sense. I think that is what you are referring to. However, I have the reality of learning my advanced Kyusho via my school's Kyusho International affiliation. I have nothing to compare it to except the fighting arts crowd here. Based on that, I'd have to say that K.I. serves me well. You are probably one of the more skilled practitioners of Kyusho as you integrate it into your Aikido, that posts regularly in this forum.

I work hard to make my martial arts, which includes Kyusho, work for me as a fighting technique. From what I have seen, this is something that comes in the dan ranks. I don't have enough years in to be really good. Give me more time and I'll get there.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

Top
#308513 - 12/29/07 08:34 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Roseanne,
I think I was more trying to say that good karate instruction will include a lot of the information that is being taught separately as "pressure points". I certainly have no issues with your training or how you practice, and I'm the first one that understands that it takes time to learn things. Sometimes, you don't understand all you know.

The teaching of martial arts has two separate parts... the external, or rote mechanical movements, and the internal, or the instinctive use of that information. Part of that internalization is pressure point information, and developing the capacity to select the target on the way there.

You can't be like these guys... while you're doing your technique, but need to make it crisp, clean, and accurate... and it DOES take practice and information.

Aikido players always say "you don't block in Aikido"... you blend... and if they don't block with me, they'll get hit. Defensively, I hit whatver is extended to me, and have studied pressure point striking enough to make my blocks painful and debilitating. Lots of times, I blend, and then strike as I'm doing the technique, so nobody ever escapes completely unmolested... but I understand fighting arts with the mind of a fighter. I'm engaged with someone who is trying to hurt me, so I'm going to hurt them... (under control and within limits in training), but you have to have the "fighter's mind" in order to fight. "Hit what you can when you can" isn't a bad philosophy for fighting, even in Aikido.

I was also trained as a mechanical engineer in college, so my understanding of body mechanics and force vectors is pretty good. I did a lot of personal research into anatomy, and combined with my college studies, I have a good understanding of what happens to the body when it encounters force. Action + reaction, movement + anchoring... all those things make sense to me and I make use of them in my martial arts.

A lot of people deliver strikes to pressure points with no concept of what goes on internally to the joint or part of the body struck. They simply know to hit TW-16 and somehow believe that since their teacher told them to hit somebody there that they've done well. A pressure point strike needs more than that... it needs to be hit with the right "weapon", (fist configuration), hit at the right angle, have the force directed in the right direction once engaged. Simply "busting the point" isn't really kyusho jitsu.

I watched an episode of "Deadly Arts" on FIT TV the other night, and the French lady who is on the series was studying to perform her kata for one of the Goju masters. During that episode, she encountered another teacher that was pounding his hands and body against a tree. He was clearly delivering significant force to whatever he was hitting using his body. He wasn't "point striking", but managing his "force delivery"... which is very important in kyusho jitsu.

It's easy to get wrapped up in the "points" of kyusho, and completely neglect the "force delivery" side of the art. Good solid punches, kicks, and the judicious applications of knees, shoulders, elbows, etc. only multiply the effect.

Most "point" attacks (in old karate systems) were used to elicit a specific movement or reaction from someone, and were never intended to be the "end all" of the art itself. I won't even go into the chi applications of the arts, but lets just say that todays "end product" of karate training is much different from 30 or 40 years ago.

Personally, I admire your work in continuing training both in karate and pressure points, and hope that you reach the level where they are all "one". When that happens, the transformation is staggering to your attackers, and calming to you and your teachers.

Follow these rules...
1. When I can, I go to the dojo.
2. When I can't, I train where I am, and go to the dojo when I can.
3. Repeat rule one and two on a daily basis.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#308514 - 06/30/08 04:55 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
whitetigerschool Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 15
That depends. Which pressure point are you hitting? Not all pressure points are meant to be hit. Some are touch points. Others are rub points. Also, you have to take into acount how you set the point up. The harder you strike the set up points, the lighter you need to go on the final knock out point.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga