FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 65 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 3
THEFOREVERMAN 3
MattJ 2
royal 2
cxt 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#308363 - 12/16/06 01:36 PM Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exist?
Zanaffar Offline
The Iron Curtain

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 33
First, I'd like to say "hello" and introduce myself. My name is Max Bado, I'm 21 years old, and I've studied martial arts since I was 9 years old. Formally I've spent 9 years in Taekwondo and 3 years in Aikido which I'm continuing to this day. Now, onto my question.

This is the exact copy of a post I made on another forum:
Quote:

Have you ever sparred your instructor/fellow student/super duper grandmaster and felt like, after years of training, you had absolutely no clue how to fight properly? I mean, they made winning against you look so easy, you might as well have dropped your pants and bent over instead of trying. Practice seems to have that effect on people, specifically, good, proper, alive training. After getting hit with the two thousandths punch to the face, one might learn to avoid them, possibly learn to judge their distance, range, and so on – all in the effort to not block that punch with their face again. Now, what does this have to do with Aikido as we see it today? Well, pretty much nothing, but this is sort of the point.

You see, it appears, to me at least, that Morohei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido, seemed to know a thing or two about actual combat. I’ve only read books and articles on the man and heard varying accounts of his prowess, but, from these references, it appears that the man knew how to handle himself. Whether natural talent played into the equation, I don’t know. Did the man get into a ridiculous amount of real life confrontations? Not sure to be honest (maybe one of you can help me out with these details). However, if my original conjecture about Ueshiba’s fighting ability is coherent and justified, then the commulation of his fighting skills and his world views and philosophies into what he called Aikido is logical and not very far fetched. It’s kind of like being really freaking good at slipping punches and avoiding hits, but also being able to catch a bunch of wristlocks.

This type of ability does not, by any means, come from a vacuum. Continuous stress testing of techniques is the only method of learning how to actively avoid getting hit. You can practice doing footwork or working on your guard for hours on end, but without someone trying to cause you harm, it’s a wasted effort. Thus, it is my hypothesis that was Ueshiba termed Aikido was what his own, stress tested, badass, fighting ability evolved into – being badass while not getting hit. But why in the world is this being taught like it is the starting point of martial arts? I cannot comprehend any one person gaining the ability of evasion that Aikido teaches without, first, requiring the necessity for such evasion to exist. Aikido training simply does not provide this.

My conclusion, therefore, is that the art of Aikido is a flawed conception. It might have worked for Ueshiba in the same way that avoiding getting hit worked for Muhammad Ali – it was the evolution of their OWN technique from their OWN experience. Something like Aikido cannot be learned without a stress tested environment – and no, Aikido randori, by any means, is not a stress tested environment. Whether Ueshiba possessed superior fighting skills, I cannot say for certain, but I would conclude that if the man was able to evolve his combat skills into a practice that resembles what modern day Aikido tries to mimic, then that’s one man I wouldn’t want to tango with.

I’m sorry if this ended up too long, but it’s been on my mind for a while. I was just wondering if you guys find any coherence in this or not. Thanks in advance for the feedback.




On the other forum I received a few good responses; however, due to the nature of the forum, many were rather inflammatory - but that's ok, that's why I love that place.

Some of the reactions I received about my post regarded my opinion as an attack on the practicality of Aikido. This is not what I'm attempting to put in question. I quote myself in saying:
Quote:

It simply appears to me that teaching someone Aikido is like teaching someone the mathematics involved in String Theory physics before they've learned long division.



and I finish up on the following note:
Quote:

I'm not debating the practicality of Aikido techniques and concepts. In fact, I'm almost certain that those techniques and concepts worked just fine for its founder. But it's the nature of those techniques and concepts that I'm trying to put into question. How do you properly teach something that is the evolution of one individual's philosophies and fighting skills when the element of fighting and stress testing is taken out?

I think I might be having some difficulty getting my point across, and I hope I'm not contradicting myself. It's just that I wouldn't suddenly go up to someone and say "I learned how to apply awesome wrist locks against real-life resisting opponents! They really work! Now let's practice them in this prescripted manner."

These views are based on my 3 years of studying Aikido. It feels too forced and artificial, as if I'm trying to learn to walk in someone else's shoes.




So, in conclusion, it appears to me, and I quote one of the replies to my post, "sounds like Aikido is the icing on the cake, and they've taken away the cake." How can such advanced techniques and concepts be developed as something other than the natural evolution of one's fighting style?

Top
#308364 - 12/18/06 08:08 AM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: Zanaffar]
JeffNotaro Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 1
hi Zanaffar,

Your post was interesting for me. First of all, excuse me my English. I am Brazilian, so Portuguese would be really better for me

I am training Aikido for 1 year. It was easy for me to understand its propose. Do not harm the adversary, or try to avoid it as much as possible. Be humble, modest. Of course, people use to see it as weakness. But do not damage someone, does not mean you are weak. Be modest does not mean you are fearful.

In fact, the Aikido trainings will get some results after a couple of years... first trying to break balance. You can reach great skills if you can form a group of friends to do Randori. Starting lazy, then increasing speed. I am sorry to tell this for you, as I have just 1 year Aikido. But I am a 38 years old guy, and I've been training another kind of arts since 10 years old, specially capoeira. My point of view is do NOT damage a person, control him instead. This is Aikido.
And I know, i will spend some years learning how to break balance, using TAE NO HENKA and TENKAN...
Your point, about skilled masters... you can apply to every style, of course, there are better fighters, kind of gifted guys, who can do everything better then us, with less training... genius... MOZARTS of martial arts... faster reflexs... cold blood... can perform a tae no henka in such mile seconds before the hit, the adversary can not even now where the target went and how he is kissing the ground.

We have to be skilled for all martial arts, faster, flexible, technical... but what do you need to decide is: Are you want to get the way of harmonized world's energy?

Top
#308365 - 12/18/06 01:53 PM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: JeffNotaro]
Zanaffar Offline
The Iron Curtain

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 33
Thank you for your reply, and I'm glad that you found my post interesting. I think what I'm trying to express in my post is a little difficult for me to word, and that is why quite a few people seem to be missing what I'm really trying to say.

I think my gripe with Aikido is that it is near impossible to put into practice the art as it was outlined by Ueshiba without actually having had the same experiences he had. However, how do you expect someone to develop an attitude of non-aggressive martial arts where all force is avoided and redirected WITHOUT being exposed to the harsh realities of actual combat (or even warfare and killing as in Ueshiba's case)? It's like saying "okay, let's teach the concept of snow to these people in Africa." What is the point and relevance? (Yes, it does actually snow in parts of Africa, I know)

All this makes sense in my head, but it's so hard to put down in words!

Top
#308366 - 12/18/06 07:38 PM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: Zanaffar]
belvedere Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
I know exactly what you mean, and why the "question" can be difficult to put into words, and why there is almost never a "real answer" achieved in discussion. The problem, as I see it, is that rational people want to classify "Aikido" as a "Martial Art", which, from our Western perspective, equates to "Fighting/Combat" as we understand and think about those two terms. Whereas JuJitsu/JuJutsu, and/or AikiJutsu, and the Ken and Jo arts are what we practice "physically", "Aikido" is the full circle of our art as O-Sensei saw and "felt" it. Name any other system of hand to hand combat in existence today, and its purpose is to "damage/disable" a foe(s), as are the roots of the system that we practice. However, O-Sensei discovered the essence of those roots and saw beyond that, recognizing that ideally, it is "better" to not damage other humans (even though some may desperately deserve it, and sometimes ask for it). Now, many of the other arts claim a "spiritual" side, or a wish for peace, but their purpose is violence. Hope this helps. -Belvy

Top
#308367 - 12/18/06 07:56 PM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: belvedere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Aikido is budo - not bugei....

Top
#308368 - 12/18/06 08:02 PM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: eyrie]
belvedere Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
True. But it also aint Bukill or Bekilled either.

Top
#308369 - 12/18/06 08:25 PM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: belvedere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Is there a difference?

Top
#308370 - 12/18/06 08:32 PM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: eyrie]
belvedere Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
Yes. But that depends on "you".

Top
#308371 - 12/19/06 01:51 AM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: belvedere]
Zanaffar Offline
The Iron Curtain

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 33
Quote:

I know exactly what you mean, and why the "question" can be difficult to put into words, and why there is almost never a "real answer" achieved in discussion. The problem, as I see it, is that rational people want to classify "Aikido" as a "Martial Art", which, from our Western perspective, equates to "Fighting/Combat" as we understand and think about those two terms. Whereas JuJitsu/JuJutsu, and/or AikiJutsu, and the Ken and Jo arts are what we practice "physically", "Aikido" is the full circle of our art as O-Sensei saw and "felt" it. Name any other system of hand to hand combat in existence today, and its purpose is to "damage/disable" a foe(s), as are the roots of the system that we practice. However, O-Sensei discovered the essence of those roots and saw beyond that, recognizing that ideally, it is "better" to not damage other humans (even though some may desperately deserve it, and sometimes ask for it). Now, many of the other arts claim a "spiritual" side, or a wish for peace, but their purpose is violence. Hope this helps. -Belvy




Thank you for the reply, belvedere. This is becoming more and more the way I feel. It seems to me that training in Aikido, because of the nature of Aikido, cannot be violent in nature - because if it is violent, violence denotes confrontation, and that misses the entire point of Aikido. It's as if Aikido is something you arrive at after many many many years of hard fighting practice - otherwise you end up with 'Aikido' that only works 'properly' in the classroom.

Top
#308372 - 12/21/06 10:41 PM Re: Greetings and a question - why does Aikido exi [Re: Zanaffar]
rupert Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Seongnam, South Korea
Sometimes - I too wonder why it exists. At that time, usually when seeing some Aiki-fairy demonstrating, I say to myself, 'Aikidont'.
_________________________
Rupert Atkinson http://discovering-aikido.com

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga