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#308132 - 01/16/07 09:07 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Leo,

Expert witnesses or not, believe me a jury will normally make up its mind AS THE CHARGES ARE READ. Now I know that takes a lot of believing but it is true. Some of the reasons are these.

1) They think: well the police/CPS wouldn't bring it to court if 'they' didn't think the accused was guilty.

2) The police/CPS are much more experienced than we are.

3) The accused ran off after the event, which tends to indicate guilt.

4) The accused did nothing to render any assistance to the injured party.

5) The accused didn't inform the police that they had done damage to the guy on the deck or stay to justify why they acted as they did.

6) As No5, but didn't phone for an ambulance for the injured party.

7) We are told that all these so called indicators took place, but there is no proof of such things happening on the video evidence, or in witness statements or testimony.

8) The arresting officers had to establish the accused's identity and then find their place of abode, further indicating guilt.

9) In the face of all these questions raised the accused denied the charges.

10) The accused's 'body language' in the dock seems to be highly suspect.

Juries are not alone in the manner they form conclusions. Can you remember the last time you went for a job interview? Well the person interviewing you made up their mind about you within the first ten/fifteen seconds of you walking into the room. The rest of the interview (how ever long it took) was spent with the interviewer looking for reinforcement of their initial impression. It wasn't spent with them looking for reasons for them to change their minds.

Regards.

MC.




No, I quite agree. However, if a person found themselves in the unfortunate position of supporting a self defense claim (which was true), then the information I provided is the best they can use to defend themselves. Nothing else would even have a chance of swaying a jury, as you have pointed out.

P.S. You make many assumptions about the situation which were not stated in the initial discussion. It may have been the person who pre-empted who called the police, for example. An ambulance may have been phoned for. Note that we are not obligated in any way by law to provide medical assistance for an assailant if they are injured by our actions in self defense. Expecting that is unreasonable when in a dangerous situation.

The police's policy regarding self defense, as I remember it (reported by the BBC a while ago) is called "bash and dash". If you stand around at the scene, you are not acting in self defense because self defense implies that you would remove yourself from a dangerous situation. Running away is in no way an implication of guilt, as long as you inform the police of the incident as soon as you are safe.

Body language is readily viewable on video. The "interview", for example, is a clearly visible activity.

Regarding the clues we give off instinctually, yes an aggressor can theoretically see that we are preparing a pre-emptive strike in many situations. This causes threat elevation and is a dangerous situation to be in indeed. The primary way to avoid this situation happening is to avoid striking pre-emptively until all other methods (in the pyramid) have been exhausted. This way we know that we have done everything in our means possible to avoid the conflict and now must consider defending ourselves physically so that we may gain a chance to escape and, possibly, survive the altercation. Note that in many cases, it has proven to be the case that even after using pre-emptive strikes, a person who is attacked can still end up dead. Hence, if things have fallen to this level, the application of reasonable force may be acceptable.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/16/07 09:14 PM)
_________________________
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(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308133 - 01/16/07 10:08 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

I still don't understand how a person who has yet to make a move could be restrained though, I mean what would you be restraining them from? Drew mate, would you care to explain?

Regards.

MC.




G'day MC

Police and security personnel do it all the time. You are restraining/preventing them from continuing their current course of action. In this sort of situation it would be preventing them from continuing their aggressive actions towards an individual. A course of action that you may reasonable believe would result in violence.

------------

I've always seen Self defence as violence minimalisation. Obviously the best result is no violence occurring at all, hence the importance of awareness avoidance, prevention and de-escalation etc. but if it has to go violent then then the outcome that produces the least amount of overall violence occurring whilst still maintaining my own safety is next best.

A preemptive movement/strike//what ever may just result in a lower level of overall violence occurring.

Just a thought
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308134 - 01/17/07 07:39 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi Drew,

Quote:

Quote:

I still don't understand how a person who has yet to make a move could be restrained though, I mean what would you be restraining them from? Drew mate, would you care to explain?

Regards.

MC.




G'day MC

Police and security personnel do it all the time. You are restraining/preventing them from continuing their current course of action. In this sort of situation it would be preventing them from continuing their aggressive actions towards an individual. A course of action that you may reasonable believe would result in violence.





OK, thanks for the explanation, I kind of already understood that but thanks for your reply. (Same goes for Crabby as well). I think that my phraseology in my original question was poorly expressed. If its OK with you I'll try again (and hopefully get it right this time!!!).

I'll refer to the aggressor as person (A) for aggressor and the defender as person (D) for defender, (Is there no end to my inventiveness?!! ) in the hope that we all end up singing from the same hymn sheet.

So, persons (A) & (D)are having an argument, person (A) is becoming very heated in defence of their viewpoint, swearing a lot, insulting person (D's) family etc. I'm sure you know the situation. Person (D) becomes concerned for their safety, but person (A) has given few physical indications of violence other than waving their hands around a lot like a windmill. (Cut off some peoples arms and they can't talk, I'm sure you know what I mean). Now, how can you restrain person (A) if they haven't given you a physical opportunity to do so? IE, they haven't gone to punch you or to kick you. I'm not the worlds best grappler, if fact far from it, (unlike my niece who is exceptional) but in order to restrain someone, surely there is a requirement for them to have launched a 'physical' attack on you, or to put it another way offered you a limb with which to grapple? Oh one thing, please remember Drew, your original question on this was "how would i feel about a pre-emptive restraining move?" So for clarity sake lets not get into the 'you would have to make an initial strike in order to set up for the take-down', as that was not part of your question. If it is, then we're back to pre-emptive striking.

Grappling arts are in my opinion far less likely to 'get you into trouble' than striking ones as they are re-active and therefore much more likely to be seen by the public, magistrate or jury as being defensive as opposed to offensive.

Thanks for reading this ramble!!

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308135 - 01/17/07 01:40 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure, MC, I'll give it a shot.

As a predatory animal, we see the signs of weakness in our opponents as well as we see the signs of aggression. We recognize these aggressive patterns, and so may our opponent, if he isnt under the influence of some outside stimulus such as drugs or alchohol. However, if he is the antogonist, (if he starts the altercation) then he is likely not looking for signs of aggression but instead for signs of weakness which is why the preemptive strike works so many times.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#308136 - 01/17/07 10:17 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

So, persons (A) & (D)are having an argument, person (A) is becoming very heated in defence of their viewpoint, swearing a lot, insulting person (D's) family etc. I'm sure you know the situation. Person (D) becomes concerned for their safety, but person (A) has given few physical indications of violence other than waving their hands around a lot like a windmill. (Cut off some peoples arms and they can't talk, I'm sure you know what I mean). Now, how can you restrain person (A) if they haven't given you a physical opportunity to do so? IE, they haven't gone to punch you or to kick you.

MC.




Physically their are many techniques available to "tie someone up" without them offering a limb etc, as a bouncer (many moons ago) i did it regularly. if a limb isn't offered you take it.

But, i don't think you mean how in terms of the physical techniques. To justify (person D) restraining them (person A) without a physical attack being launched by "A" (actually this goes for any preemptive move) Person D must have a HONEST BELIEF that it is REASONABLE to assume that physical harm is likely to occur (to person D) if person A is allowed to continue is current course of action.

EG. "D" has tried to deescalate the situation, "D" has tried to remove themselves from the situation but for whatever reason hase not been able to., Person A's level of aggression continues to rise and it is reasonable to assume that "A" will continue to escalate to violence (it doesn't matter how "D" judges this likelihood, what is important is that "D" has an honest and reasonable belief that this will happen)

This is where you'll hear the argument "but how can you really know", "You can't predict the future" etc. The thing is virtually all victims of violent crimes have said that they felt something was wrong.

Intuition, gut feeling, 6th sense or your subconscious picking up on small clues given off by your opponent that Our conscious mind doesn't pick up. however you explain it, it is our inbuilt, instinctual early warning system.

it's important to note that this "honest reasonable belief" is the reason to pre-empt not an excuse to preempt. We can't go around punching out everyone claiming it to be preemptive in self defence. You must honestly believe it is a necessary action and legally (in most places) it must be considered to be a reasonable assumption that violence will occur to the defender (preemptive striker etc), given the situation and the likely belief of the defender.

Reasonable is usually defined as "what a member of the community of sound mind would consider to be reasonable given the situation, (location, actions of the other party etc) and likely state of mind of the defender"

When it comes down to it, No-one can tell anyone else to preemptively act, hell no-one can tell you to defend yourself it is a decision that you must make for yourself. I do recommend however that you decide what you are willing to do prior to any situation occurring. In the heat of the moment is not the time to be thinking "am i willing to preempt or not". In the heat of the moment is not the time to think about anything except for the situation.

Predetermine your Lines, Ie where do you draw the line for your own actions and define the line they must cross, what are you are willing to put up with before physical retaliation. Having a pre determined set of lines Or guides will enable you to focus on the task at hand ie making sure you eat dinner at home tonight with a knife and fork.

Be honest with your own abilities when drawing these lines. it's no good saying that I'll wait for this if your abilities can't handle the steps or level before it.


It may not be what many of us consider the ideal, but Midnightcrawler has drawn a line, at least he doesn't have to think about whether to preempt or not, he can concentrate purely not getting hit.



Hope that helps.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308137 - 02/08/07 09:06 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
VVIII Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
Fellow Aussie! Tell them loudly (for potentail witness) that you feel physically threatened and to not come any closer and that if they come any closer (than, say your outstretched hand)((and if theres no other way out)) ITS ON (just get in first, hard), the police find this logic reasonable i've found.

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#308138 - 02/08/07 09:19 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: MattJ]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Matt:

Philosophically, I am ardently opposed to physical violence, ever. I contend (rightly/wrongly) if things get to that level, all kinds of things we should have done (to prevent that) we failed in our training (ie more work required)...

Now, assessments being made, if I believed I had no further options, no alternative choices, and was in serious, imminant phyical danger life/limb. I would not be happy about it, but yes I would strike first. The worst danger is not the physical, but the head space (or its lack) of the assailant...

If I cannot alter their path, their "attack mode" we are merely a heavy bag waiting to be hit, and failing to remove ourselves from that untenible position... change my physical location, my angles, make them alter physically and hopefully dissuade their intention.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#308139 - 02/12/07 02:30 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Saisho]
sunchips Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 15
Quote:

"There is no first attack in Karate"



for me, the preemptive word is not the right word to use, cause by my definition (the first form of attack - includes forms of hostility- not always physical) I never strike preemptively. But for instance, if a guy has a gun on him, his having a gun and showing a tendency to violence towards me, to me is as good as him striking first. I prefer to channel the attackers energy to take him down, as you attack you expose minor openings, use that enemy's first strike to open him and take him down in as few hits as possible.

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#308140 - 05/19/07 05:20 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: sunchips]
Jim_M Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/13/07
Posts: 7
I said yes to both. If a threat is imminent, striking first could be the difference between living or dying. However, you do to make sure that the preemptive strike is absolutely justified or you could find yourself in legal trouble.

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#308141 - 05/25/07 02:43 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Jim_M]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
"Running away is in no way an implication of guilt, as long as you inform the police of the incident as soon as you are safe".

Leo,

As far as I'm concerned the later part of the sentance is the telling one. Viz, "as long as you inform the police of the incident as soon as you are safe". Therefore, to not inform the police after your departure would indicate a large proponderance towards guilt.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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