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#308102 - 01/15/07 02:33 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
This whole issue hinges on the true definition of the word "pre-emptive". In the U.S. the law allows for a victim to "defend" him/herself when the offender makes any actions or states any words that a "reasonable person" would believe are a precursor to violence. For example, when a person says "I'm gonna kick your a**" to you, IF a reasonable person would believe that 1) he meant it, & 2) the attack IS IMMINENT , you can defend yourself.

Making such a statement is illegal in the US & is called an "assault", NOT to be confused with a "battery" which is an "unwanted touching".

However, semantically speaking, once you respond to a "battery", you are NOT acting pre-emptively anymore (you are acting responsively).


ALSO: young master Crablord. You need to chill out! At age 15, and living at home with mommy & daddy, you SHOULD show more respect to other ADULTS on this board (and elsewhere).

Disagree respectfully & DON'T have the expectation that others are going to conform to your OPINIONS! When discussing philosophy, NO one is ever "right" or "wrong", yet come from different perspectives.

Also, if I read anothert one of your posts discussing your MANY, MANY fights and skirmishes, I'm gonna vomit.

Trouble rarely finds a person time and again, but certain people, thru actions & attitudes search out trouble themselves (whether they are aware of this or not).

You seem to be quick to get angry, quick to argue, quick to insult, quick to fight! Please realize that at 15, the vast majority of male adults on this planet (regardless of martial arts training) could probably hurt you in a fight.

And... judging from your posts, it sounds like it would do you some good!

So, be quiet, be humble, LEARN and ANALYZE situations, & stop reacting with immediate anger. Bad attitude + bad luck (wrong opponent) = early grave.

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#308103 - 01/15/07 02:39 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Eternal_Student]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
We all do realise that pre-emptive strikes are legal right? I mean, the polls posted earlier seem to imply that striking first in self defense is illegal and will result in imprisonment. Sure, there's a chance that this will happen if the jury is composed mostly of people who view the subject the same way as Midnightcrawler, however it's technically legal.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308104 - 01/15/07 03:01 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
NO... generally, pre-emptive strikes are ILLEGAL! (it all depends on what's "pre-emptive" to you. does it mean before any actual strike is thrown by the "agressor"? does it mean before the "agressor" does or says something that would make the reasonable person believe an attack is imminent?

Again, in the US, the agressor MUST say or do something that would make the reasonable person believe that an attack was imminent (going to occur immediately). Also, the act Must be no more damaging to the attacker that would be reasonable to defend him/herself.

Semantically, pre-emptive infers acting BEFORE the agressor makes such an action.

Also, generally, juries are dumb. The better attorney almost always wins (unless the evidence on one side is overwhealming"

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#308105 - 01/15/07 03:09 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Eternal_Student]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

NO... generally, pre-emptive strikes are ILLEGAL! (it all depends on what's "pre-emptive" to you. does it mean before any actual strike is thrown by the "agressor"? does it mean before the "agressor" does or says something that would make the reasonable person believe an attack is imminent?

Again, in the US, the agressor MUST say or do something that would make the reasonable person believe that an attack was imminent (going to occur immediately). Also, the act Must be no more damaging to the attacker that would be reasonable to defend him/herself.

Semantically, pre-emptive infers acting BEFORE the agressor makes such an action.




I'm just assuming that a pre-emptive strike implies that an indication of impending harm has already been found. If no such indications are present, I would have used the term assault and battery. Pre-emptive strikes are legal, assault and battery are not, context must be taken into account.

Furthermore, in the UK:

Quote:

A man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot; circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike.



- Lord Griffith

http://www.lawteacher.net/Criminal/General%20Defences/Self%20Defence.htm


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/15/07 03:19 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308106 - 01/15/07 03:18 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
The "battery" is the agressor actually touching/ grabbing/ striking you. If the battery has already happened, then how the heck is your RE-active defense technique "pre-emptive". Pre-emptive means the action takes place BEFORE the battery", in order to prevent it.

If your strike/ sd technique takes place AFTER the battery, then almost EVERYONE would agree that your action was justified & the law is firmly on your side.

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#308107 - 01/15/07 03:20 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"Sure, there's a chance that this will happen if the jury is composed mostly of people who view the subject the same way as Midnightcrawler, however it's technically legal."

This is part of the main point though isn't it?
From the viewpoint of someone who has appeared in court more than most, I would have to say that the majority of people do not understand the law and would interpret an assault as starting at the point where physical contact is made. Wrongly, as hopefully we all know by now, but still the way the majority think.

In all of this debate we have heard about the various giveaways that say an assault is about to happen. You go a jury with the bulging eyes, dipping shoulder and monosyllabic speech argument and you may as well tell them you read it in your horoscope.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#308108 - 01/15/07 03:20 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Eternal_Student]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

The "battery" is the agressor actually touching/ grabbing/ striking you. If the battery has already happened, then how the heck is your RE-active defense technique "pre-emptive". Pre-emptive means the action takes place BEFORE the battery", in order to prevent it.

If your strike/ sd technique takes place AFTER the battery, then almost EVERYONE would agree that your action was justified & the law is firmly on your side.




I'm talking about the act of striking someone when there is no indication that a fight is imminent from the person who is struck. This is an assault on that person.

However, if the person is aggressive and an attack appears to be imminent, it is not assault, but a pre-emptive strike used in self defense.

As to it being a guarantee that you will get self defense if you are second to strike, that is far from the truth. You could be charged with disturbing the peace and consenting to participation in a brawl. Furthermore, depending on your application of force, you could end up being taken as the assailant if the level of force is unreasonably high.

Quote:

"Sure, there's a chance that this will happen if the jury is composed mostly of people who view the subject the same way as Midnightcrawler, however it's technically legal."

This is part of the main point though isn't it?
From the viewpoint of someone who has appeared in court more than most, I would have to say that the majority of people do not understand the law and would interpret an assault as starting at the point where physical contact is made. Wrongly, as hopefully we all know by now, but still the way the majority think.

In all of this debate we have heard about the various giveaways that say an assault is about to happen. You go a jury with the bulging eyes, dipping shoulder and monosyllabic speech argument and you may as well tell them you read it in your horoscope.




Disturbing as it may be, this is definitely true. Yet another reason to avoid fights and escape if you find yourself in a dangerous situation.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/15/07 03:31 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308109 - 01/15/07 04:53 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: McSensei]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi there Mark, McSensie, Eternal Student and Leo.

Apologies to Globetrotter who asked a specific question but I'll be with you shortly.

It looks as if we have a general consensus that to pre-emptively strike, whilst being legal, is ill advised as the likelyhood of being convicted is to say the least very high.

To my critics of whom there are many!! In one of my posts I said I didn't expect to win any popularity contests on this and I was proved right!! However, I do remain consistent and believe that my opinion is right for me. To those who are not with me on this, my belief is that at that moment in time you do belittle yourselves, as you do know better, or should do. There is always a better way out of the situation, or at least one which will give you a higher chance of not being convicted.

Regards to all.

MC
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308110 - 01/15/07 05:02 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
I have been following along with some confusion. The way everyone is posting sounds as if the pre-emptive strike was a crippling or deadly strike. It doesn't have to be. You could send a front kick to the mid section, send a groin kick, a palm strike, etc., etc. If you have tried avoidance, verbal communication, and other tactics with no success, and you are backed into a corner with no where to go, you need to get out of the situation. It doesn't mean punch them in the throat and stomp their head in while their on the ground. If your unsure of their intentions, send a non crippling strike to get space and get to safety. If you don't do major damage to the person, you won't ever see the inside of a court room.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#308111 - 01/15/07 05:25 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Dedicated1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Here I am on this thread again after I'd already made my point...

As with anything, strategy and tactics depend completely on the situation at hand. To say you are either for or against preemptive striking is absurd!

To say that you would avoid violence when possible is more like it. That's the only sane thing to do. Drastic times call for drastic measures however if it that situation arises, do what you gotta do to go home - what EVER the hell that may be.

Its sort of ridiculous to come here and take a stand one way or the other because just as soon as you say you're against preemptive striking, life will make a liar out of you.

Me, I'm all about the love. That's avoidance. That's making friends of enemies, buying a person a beer, etc and SHOWING them I'm not afraid of 'em. But I do know when to beat feet and when the opportunity presents itself, I'll bolt and not look back. No ego problems here.

At the same time, if someone is in my way through the door, heaven help 'em. It's just a matter of doing what you have to do, no more, no less. Why make a case about it?


-John

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