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#308022 - 12/14/06 03:55 PM POLL - Pre-emptive strikes?
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Would you use them? Do you think they are a valid self defense strategy?
Would you strike pre-emptively?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 12/14/06 03:55 PM
View the results of this poll.
Valid strategy?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 12/14/06 03:55 PM
View the results of this poll.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#308023 - 12/14/06 03:58 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Yes to both if the situation called for it. I've no problem with striking first and I know that as long as the threat of danger is immediate and real in this country (the UK) a preemptive strike is definitely legal.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308024 - 12/14/06 04:03 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: MattJ]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
"There is no first attack in Karate"

That doesn't mean you can't make contact first. An attack can be many things and even if the person throws a strike and you are faster, you strike first.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#308025 - 12/14/06 04:05 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Saisho]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1991
Loc: Lorton, VA
If an aggressor indicates an intent to harm me, whether through verbal or non-verbal means, then yes. Self-defense.

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#308026 - 12/14/06 04:26 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: MattJ]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
A valid strategy? Absolutely.

Would I use it myself? No, almost never.

You can be 99 % sure someone is going to attack you and then...nothing. I've seen it quite often and have also been there, right up in someones face screaming and shouting, threatening allsorts and then it all sort of just peters out with no actual violence. If I had struck pre-emptively I would have been in twice the number of fights I have.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#308027 - 12/14/06 05:18 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Saisho]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

"There is no first attack in Karate"

That doesn't mean you can't make contact first. An attack can be many things and even if the person throws a strike and you are faster, you strike first.




McSensei,

Why would you let someone get in your face? That is not good strategy from the get go. They might not do anything,but they might.

I have said this before many times. If someone gets in your range aggresively they have provoked the attack.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#308028 - 12/14/06 05:40 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: BrianS]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Never give a sucker an even break. If they're threatening in any way if they attempt to get up in your face. Hit em hard fast and repeatedly until the threat is no more. Don’t allow them to close distance with you; if they can touch you they can hit you. If they’re in your face, chances are you won’t see the punch, blade or bottle until your tagged then it’s to late. Don’t take chances, the other guy is always faster and knows more than you do. Sucker punching has its place.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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#308029 - 12/15/06 01:48 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: swseibukan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
If they want ot attack me, they agree to accept the injuries they will sustain.
It's them or me getting beaten. May as well be them, they'll hopefully learn a lesson.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#308030 - 12/15/06 06:53 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Stormdragon]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

If they want ot attack me, they agree to accept the injuries they will sustain.




How do manage to get them to accept that? Do you force them to sign some sort of waiver or something? "I hereby agree to let you whup my butt and fully accept sole liability for any injuries sustained during said whupping!". What a cool idea... could you send me a copy of the waiver!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#308031 - 12/15/06 08:37 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Gavin]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Thanks For starting this Matt.

It really shows the theorists from the realists.

McSensei, you just started door work, yes? I really admire your pure intent “Would I use it myself? No, almost never.” I do so wish it was a simple as that principle.

Don’t ever WANT to have to pre-empt, but sometimes it just is the only way. After you have had a few of those violent encounters you seem to so crave, I wonder if you will change your opinion, or indeed with your stated principle, if you are still able to work as a door supervisor

Brain, great point “If someone gets in your range aggresively they have provoked the attack.”

English Law:-
• Common Assault, contrary to section 39 Criminal Justice Act
i. An offence of common assault is committed when a person either assaults another person or commits a battery.
ii. An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force
iii. A battery is committed when a person intentionally and recklessly applies unlawful force to another

'Reasonable Force'
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:
• self-defence; or
• defence of another; or
• defence of property; or
• prevention of crime; or
• lawful arrest.

“ I felt in fear of my safety, and had to strike my aggressor 1st as I believed I was about to be attacked”

Mark

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#308032 - 12/15/06 08:41 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think that a rule, 'no first strike' is probably most useful in that without it...it's simply too easy to justify personal aggression; one minute one is 'precluding' a possible violent attack on the street...the next instance could be popping your wife in the mouth for yelling about you being out too late.

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#308033 - 12/15/06 09:17 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

one minute one is 'precluding' a possible violent attack on the street...the next instance could be popping your wife in the mouth for yelling about you being out too late.




I’m sorry but that isn’t even a logical progression. One is a violent attack and the other is an argument. Unless there is a history of violence of the wife on the husband there should be no need for a pre-emptive strike. Even if there is a history, one does not go straight to violence. Using Leo’s progression levels of self defense from a current thread:


1) Common sense
2) Avoidance
3) Awareness
4) Humour/light heartedness
5) Rapport creation
6) Verbal SD
7) Fence
8) Escape
9) Pre-emptive strike
10) Physical self-defense


I understand what you mean, but I don’t agree with no pre-emptive strikes.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#308034 - 12/15/06 09:20 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Who said violence was (always) logical? You missed the operative word 'could' (situational). I'm sorry...but having known violent people in my life, while it may not seem logical to you, I'm alluding to the fact that certain temperaments will rationalize violence, trying to dance around 'when it's okay' to 'react' first.

Sorry folks...but hitting first is wrong. It may be reasonable...but is wrong and has it's consequences.

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#308035 - 12/15/06 09:27 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

It may be reasonable...but is wrong and has it's consequences.




Not hitting first has it's consequences as well. Like not being able to hit second.



...another agree to disagree moment...
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#308036 - 12/15/06 10:37 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: MattJ]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
An attack doesn't start when the first strike is thrown, it starts many steps before that. If you have an honest believe that you are in danger, then you are legally and morally permitted to respond preemptively.

There are alternatives to the preemptive strategy, for sure there are are other ways, but it has been proven again and again that the person who hits first is the one more likely to eat at home.

We are talking self defence here not some dojo sparing session. I have over 20 years of TMA and RBSD behind me. I've been there and know the difference. It is not dishonest to pre-empt infact a preemptive strike often equates to a lower overall quantity of violence so you could say it is more honourable.

A lot of the the things ( advice etc) that I heard on the forum seem to be Martial arts related as opposed to self defence related.

Get in touch with reality guys, take a holistic view of a self defence situation, don't just concentrate on the techniques. for eg a head lock was introduce as a scenario in another thread, well how the hell did you get into that situation in the first place, I guarantee there was at least 3 occasions that you could have defended before the Headlock.

Sorry Guys I don't mean to come across as lecturing or talking down to you, and I love Traditional Martial Arts (TMA) I would not trad 2 decades of study of it for anyone. or anything ( except my wife , But thats obvious.. Hey I'm in love and proud of it )..... where was i ... oh yeah... but real life street attacks are not the same as in the Dojo it requires a different approach, mindset, you have fear involved at a plethora of other factors most of which are unpredictable. I am one of the pro TMA guys maybe I had been lucky my I found my TMA very helpful when on the door, but it was modified or stratified. Personally i find TMA and RBSD to compliment each other very well.
It's like men and women they go well to together but lets be honest they ARE different ( no offense intended to the gay dudes and dudetts, it's just not my thing)

Any way Someone's bound to get [censored] of at me for this but the only true constant in the universe is .....TRUTH. this is just what i've discovered to be true
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308037 - 12/15/06 10:59 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: harlan]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

I think that a rule, 'no first strike' is probably most useful in that without it...it's simply too easy to justify personal aggression; one minute one is 'precluding' a possible violent attack on the street...the next instance could be popping your wife in the mouth for yelling about you being out too late.




i dont follow this thought process at all Harlan, sorry.
Accurately assessing a threat to your person and taking steps to prevent it, and attacking someone for disagreeing with you are completely different motivations.

I have pre-empted on many occasions, and dont have a problem with it. intrestingly enough, much of my pre-emption/ escalation has had to do with preventing or intervening to stop women being attacked by aggressive partners.

I sleep just fine.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#308038 - 12/15/06 11:06 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Cord]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yeah...I've been told that trying to follow my thought processes is like trying to jump on a carousel going full speed....you never know where you're going to land. Sorry...

Quote:

i dont follow this thought process at all Harlan,



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#308039 - 12/15/06 12:09 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: harlan]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Harlan says:-

“...the next instance could be popping your wife in the mouth for yelling about you being out too late.”

Nothing wrong with an appropriate level of domestic discipline. Vital that she knows her place…

Cord,
Stopping a woman{person} being attacked, isn’t really a pre-emptive strike, violence is already in progress, giving the guy a blind side right hand to the jaw, is more like sniping, and a very joyous thing to do it is….

I think some people, have interpreted a pre-emptive strike to prevent the other person getting a shot at you first, into Smacking some poor innocent if they so much as look at you..

All the times I have been in “no mans land” at work with some [censored] twat squaring up to me, any second he is going to try to hit me, all my conflict resolution isn’t working, I can feel my bottle slipping….. the legs going, butterfly’s, voice cracks, heart racing……… the guys just gets that little too close , or shows me a tell tale, or does his 3 look target acquisition….. I KNOW HE IS ABOUT TO HIT ME…. So bang right hand to the side of the jaw….moving into catch/restrain him……

Maybe if he isn’t that big, a double hip punch to the solar. Not always going to put him down, but he is going to move back

Wow as I type I really miss working on the doors etc……. OMG!!! That’s very dumb


Mark

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#308040 - 12/15/06 05:26 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Wife beating is a definite no-no. Pre-emptive strikes are only for situations where imminent threat of serious violence is present and all other methods of self defense have failed. Ideally, no situation would get through so many layers of self defense but in reality it happens on rare occasions.

The fundamental principle is to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a pre-emptive strike was self defense, both to a court and to yourself. This can only happen if there was no other way to resolve the situation.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/15/06 05:34 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308041 - 12/15/06 09:49 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Gavin]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

Quote:

If they want ot attack me, they agree to accept the injuries they will sustain.




How do manage to get them to accept that? Do you force them to sign some sort of waiver or something? "I hereby agree to let you whup my butt and fully accept sole liability for any injuries sustained during said whupping!". What a cool idea... could you send me a copy of the waiver!





Oooh very funny Gavin!
I'm sayin if they attack me, they automatically accept the consequences, they jsut dont know what they are.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#308042 - 12/15/06 10:13 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Stormdragon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I will strike first, and many times after that.

As for hitting your wife, or another women, you might practice that at home but it would only happen in front of me once.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#308043 - 12/15/06 10:22 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Mark,

You wrote..

"I think some people, have interpreted a pre-emptive strike to prevent the other person getting a shot at you first, into Smacking some poor innocent if they so much as look at you.."

This is my point. How do you know? As I said, I've seen and been in loads of situations that have gone right to the wire and then backed down to nothing apart from some verbal.
I think Saisho said it best..

"That doesn't mean you can't make contact first. An attack can be many things and even if the person throws a strike and you are faster, you strike first."

This is what I train for and where I am at. Who knows? In the future I may change my mind because of the nature of the job. I am always openminded about such things.

Brian, as a rule I don't let people in to my personal space, but everybody must have been in one of those forehead to forehead situations before.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#308044 - 12/16/06 12:13 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Chen Zen]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
I've been married for 26 years now and I found out along time ago. If I don't get in the first shot the old lady is all over me like ugly on an ape. It's all about survival.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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#308045 - 12/16/06 06:55 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: swseibukan]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Chen Zen,

Next time you go to Wal-Mart, buy yourself a very large jar marked, IRONY and an even larger box with the words SENSE OF HUMOUR

FFS. Didn’t you notice the wink smiley?

“Nothing wrong with an appropriate level of domestic discipline. Vital that she knows her place…


McSensei, ok mate whatever, but please just don’t get battered on the door.

Mark

PS; ROFL swseibukan so true, I know who the real boss is!

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#308046 - 12/16/06 08:58 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: McSensei]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

This is my point. How do you know? As I said, I've seen and been in loads of situations that have gone right to the wire and then backed down to nothing apart from some verbal




I think the trick is to genuinely not care or feel upset about hurting someone who is obviously aggressive towards you. If they encroach your space,and freely use verbal intimidation, the chances are they have got away with this numerous times. Its territorial pi$$ing, or ego inflation or whatever.
Its not your job to assess that- you are not trying to second guess them and see the bullied 5 year old within. Leave that for the social workers.

If you dont hit them, they will never learn that their behaviour has consequences. Working the door, you have to be calm and approachable, but you also need to let the punters know that there is a line that they overstep at their peril.
If you dont, you just make work for yourself.

If it nags at your conscience, look at it this way- the worst they are going to get from you is a sore jaw and a ride out the fire escape. If they try their hard-ass routine on the wrong person in public, they could get killed.
By hitting them, you are saving their life. its the kind thing to do.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#308047 - 12/16/06 06:44 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I saw the smiley. It just looked like you were promoting woman beating. Im SOOOOO against that that I dont really even think it should be joked about. However, my apologies to you. Touchy button, thats all.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#308048 - 12/16/06 09:08 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Chen Zen]
Mishael Offline
Dragon

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 33
Loc: PA USA
I believe anytime you make it clear that you are uncomfortable with someone entering your personal space and they continue to advance to your guard, you are justified in a pre-emptive strike. Also, things like the eyes opening and then narrowing, tension in the upper torso, clench fists, etc make it clear that they intend to do you harm. I usually say very loudly, "You are making me uncomfortable; please don't come any closer." Then I ask them what they want. Then I strike and continue striking until they are no longer a threat. If there are alot of people around I might yell things like: "I told you I don't want any trouble." Of course, I am elbowing, kneeing, and striking them as I yell. No one has the right to try an intimidate you by entering your personal space.


Edited by Mishael (12/16/06 09:10 PM)

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#308049 - 01/12/07 06:41 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Zombie Zero]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

If an aggressor indicates an intent to harm me, whether through verbal or non-verbal means, then yes. Self-defense.




Verbal is just that words; remember the old saying, "sticks and stones my break my bones but names will never hurt me"? An altercation isn't 'on' until somebody throws one. The first one to 'go physical' has just lost any respect I might have had for them. In my way of thinking its the mark of a coward, because they were the first to lose their composure and self control. If a person cannot control themselves, their emotions, ego or fear what is there to suggest they are capable of, or have the right to control another individual?


Edited by Midnightcrawler (01/12/07 06:58 PM)

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#308050 - 01/12/07 06:55 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: McSensei]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

A valid strategy? Absolutely.

Would I use it myself? No, almost never.

You can be 99 % sure someone is going to attack you and then...nothing. I've seen it quite often and have also been there, right up in someones face screaming and shouting, threatening allsorts and then it all sort of just peters out with no actual violence. If I had struck pre-emptively I would have been in twice the number of fights I have.




Tony,

Exactly the point I was making in my post above.

Of course it will depend on the school or other training organisation which the individual attends, in that some (the disreputable ones) will encourage this type of behaviour. I suppose that the schools which enthusiastically teach and encourage this type of behaviour have been founded and staffed by the sort of individuals who enjoy physically imposing their will on others, IE Bullies.

There are unfortunately a number in existence in the UK (BAMA) being one example and others where regular and severe beatings are handed out to students by higher grades and instructors. I strongly believe that this type of organisation should be weeded out and the protagonists banned from teaching.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308051 - 01/12/07 08:14 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I sgree with McSensei completely on this matter. Great points.


-John

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#308052 - 01/12/07 08:31 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

It really shows the theorists from the realists.

English Law:-
• Common Assault, contrary to section 39 Criminal Justice Act
i. An offence of common assault is committed when a person either assaults another person or commits a battery.
ii. An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force
iii. A battery is committed when a person intentionally and recklessly applies unlawful force to another

'Reasonable Force'
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:
• self-defence; or
• defence of another; or
• defence of property; or
• prevention of crime; or
• lawful arrest.

“ I felt in fear of my safety, and had to strike my aggressor 1st as I believed I was about to be attacked”

Mark




Mark,

All of your quote is perfectly correct but, unfortunately for those of the forgoing pre-emptive striking persuasion there is the small matter of witnesses, CCTV recordings, cameras in mobile phones, micro digital cameras etc, etc.

Its all very well and good saying "I felt in fear of my safety, and had to strike my aggressor 1st as I believed I was about to be attacked", video recordings from CCTV are silent, mobile phones are notorious for not picking up dialogue when in video mode and witnesses are not predisposed to support the person who struck first. Your assertion might have had some credence in times gone by, but the weight of evidence in this day and age is somewhat more than ever going to be stacked against you.

I personally would ALWAYS be (and have been successful being) a witness for the prosecution when this type of altercation has ensued. It tends to lend extra credence to my testimony when I am asked if I know anything about MA, and I can reply "Yes I have over 30 years experience". I couldn't care less if one of the protagonists is a martial artist or not, or even if they both are. The person who strikes the first blow is in my opinion beneath contempt, yes I know you are accurate in your quote of UK law, but it makes no difference to my view of the matter.

Also someone mentioned the subject of "personal space". No such thing exists, it is an abstract concept, nobody owns the space surrounding them. The Brits are notorious at being standoffish whilst the Latin cultures are known to accept and even encourage a greater closeness in communications between individuals. So what are you intending to do, whack an Italian or Spaniard just because they get too close in your comfort zone? How do you feel about a Portuguese? The reason I ask is that I have some friends from those countries and in the normal course of conversation they tend to get very close and animated, which could easily lead to mistakes being made. If someone is unknowing about these facts costly mistakes can be made, particularly if you do not speak their language or understand the accent.

Please don't quote the old "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" routine. Its so old its got whiskers on. Oh, I just might be one of the 12!!!

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (01/12/07 09:52 PM)

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#308053 - 01/12/07 10:51 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

The person who strikes the first blow is in my opinion beneath contempt, yes I know you are accurate in your quote of UK law, but it makes no difference to my view of the matter.





Just wondering if your view would still be the same if it was your 15 yr old daughter fighting of the "nice boy" who now expects something in return for the movie he just paid for.

If you have an honest belief that you are in danger you have every legal and moral right to strike preemptively. If you have an honest belief and this is a genuine self-defence situation, then camera phones, cctv etc will show that and your lawyer will use it to prove the case of self defence. if you have genuinely tried to de-escalate and or avoid violence then that will be evident in the footage.

Of course if it's not a Genuine self defence situation then maybe you should worry.

I am so sick of hearing Self-defence being tossed around when in all reality most pup oriented violence occurs due to ego not the need to protect yourself or another from harm.

How do you know someone asked, you just do if you are not feeling in danger then you have no honest belief that you need to act pre-emptively.

Pub fights and street fights are not self defence they are ego based not safety based. I'm not saying that genuine self defence situation's don't occur in these settings, of course they do, but most pub situations are avoidable. The vast majority that comes to blows is because of the ego. ( this is based on my own experiences and observations on the door and experiences and research of others who's material I have studied.)


Edited by drgndrew (01/12/07 10:54 PM)

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#308054 - 01/13/07 05:48 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
If some drunk is in my face being abusive to me or my wife, I am not going to risk injury by waiting for them to throw the 1st punch. Mishael is spot on - you have a guard or fence, and if it is touched or broken, then I call that justification for a pre-emptive strike.

This is almost going down the 'human rights' argument. If people are going to throw their weight around and start picking on others for no reason, they lose that right. It is because no one stands up to them that they continue doing what they do until some innocent gets really hurt.

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#308055 - 01/13/07 05:59 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: NewJitsu]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Midnightcrawler,

Now that is a great post, thanks!

“I personally would ALWAYS be (and have been successful being) a witness for the prosecution when this type of altercation has ensued.”

Bit shocked about that, even if the pre-emptive strike was totally justified?

Sorry Mate, Personal space does exist in legal terminology

Public Order Act 1986

5 Harassment, alarm or distress

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.


That coupled with the afore mentioned definition of assault and numerous case law clearly indicates it could be an offence.

You are so right about other cultures, LOL us standoffish English being greeted by Greek, Spanish , Italian friends, seen it so many times. As you say, misunderstanding VERY often occur.

Not sure why you think I would “whack” a friend from the med or middle east, just for greeting me…. I have worked in a multicultural environment for decades, not happened yet.
I actually taught a group in October that was 50% Portuguese………We didn’t mention Football once….

I would imagine that you have limited experience in the real world of violence ( and a every good thing that is!!)

As you indicate, I do so wish that I never have a person with your views on a jury…

Regards

Mark

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#308056 - 01/13/07 09:02 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: NewJitsu]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
If some drunk guy is in MY face being abusive to me or my wife, I’d have a talk with him and/or simply LEAVE the scene.

The question is, “where” are you when you’re confronted by a drunk guy? The second question might be, “why” are you there? Self-defense is not being “there” in the first place and then leaving as soon as trouble starts brewing. But that is just common sense.

Think about it folks, how many different things can you do in this situation BEFORE things get violent? In a bar? Get the attention of a bouncer. On the street? Go into a public place and/or call the cops from there.

Has anyone ever heard of running away? Ever seen really drunk guys run? They generally don’t chase you very far before they decide it’s a lot easier to just go have another drink. Either that or they "face plant" into the asphalt.

It’s just amazing that so many here seem to be so paranoid and full of bravado.

If it is your JOB to keep order, we’re talking about different dynamics at work. If you’re a “civilian”, just go home, lol. You have NOTHING to gain from reacting violently. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. But if you keep in mind the triple stupid rule (don’t do stupid things, with stupid people in stupid places) you should fare pretty well.

Of course, some folks are naturally going to have a hard time not being stupid. That’s why God “invented” natural selection.


NewJitsu wrote:
Quote:


Mishael is spot on - you have a guard or fence, and if it is touched or broken, then I call that justification for a pre-emptive strike.





If someone lays hands on you, sure, jack ‘em up. THEN bolt.


Quote:


This is almost going down the 'human rights' argument. If people are going to throw their weight around and start picking on others for no reason, they lose that right. It is because no one stands up to them that they continue doing what they do until some innocent gets really hurt.





Yeah, but what often happens is that when someone stands up to them, they get shot for their efforts. I can’t tell you HOW many times I’ve read about arguments between folks turning into murder charges. No reason to up the stakes if you could just leave the scene.


-John

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#308057 - 01/13/07 10:43 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

Quote:

The person who strikes the first blow is in my opinion beneath contempt, yes I know you are accurate in your quote of UK law, but it makes no difference to my view of the matter.





Just wondering if your view would still be the same if it was your 15 yr old daughter fighting of the "nice boy" who now expects something in return for the movie he just paid for.

If you have an honest belief and this is a genuine self-defence situation, then camera phones, CCTV etc will show that and your lawyer will use it to prove the case of self defence. if you have genuinely tried to de-escalate and or avoid violence then that will be evident in the footage.





Well, I don't have a 15 year old daughter. My youngest daughter is 26.

Photographic and video evidence rarely proves innocence, as what is normally seen by a magistrate or jury is two people having an argument which is then escalated into physical violence by the person who throws the first strike. This is why photographic and video evidence is in the majority of instances submitted by the prosecution and not by the defense. This is highlighted by the fact that video evidence has been used in a number of high profile case where police officers have 'overstepped the mark', in order to secure a conviction.

Can anyone tell me how to put multiple quotes into a reply please?
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308058 - 01/13/07 11:25 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

Midnightcrawler,

Now that is a great post, thanks!

“I personally would ALWAYS be (and have been successful being) a witness for the prosecution when this type of altercation has ensued.”

Bit shocked about that, even if the pre-emptive strike was totally justified?

Sorry Mate, Personal space does exist in legal terminology

Public Order Act 1986

5 Harassment, alarm or distress

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.


That coupled with the afore mentioned definition of assault and numerous case law clearly indicates it could be an offence.

You are so right about other cultures, LOL us standoffish English being greeted by Greek, Spanish , Italian friends, seen it so many times. As you say, misunderstanding VERY often occur.

Not sure why you think I would “whack” a friend from the med or middle east, just for greeting me…. I have worked in a multicultural environment for decades, not happened yet.
I actually taught a group in October that was 50% Portuguese………We didn’t mention Football once….

I would imagine that you have limited experience in the real world of violence ( and a every good thing that is!!)

As you indicate, I do so wish that I never have a person with your views on a jury…

Regards

Mark





Mark.

I wasn't suggesting that you would 'whack' your continental friends. Merely pointing out that a person unfamiliar with their culture could easily mistake their behaviour as being aggressive and threatening when in fact it is not. It is merely a cultural 'difference', but that difference could cause a person unfamiliar with it and of a pre-emptive disposition to 'shoot first and ask questions later'.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308059 - 01/13/07 12:30 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: JKogas]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
Quote:

Yeah, but what often happens is that when someone stands up to them, they get shot for their efforts. I can’t tell you HOW many times I’ve read about arguments between folks turning into murder charges. No reason to up the stakes if you could just leave the scene.

-John





Fair enough. I live in a rural part of the UK, so guns aren't an issue. OK, so you never know, but assuming everyone's carrying a shooter would see me living the life of a hermit.

But yes I completely agree that self defence is not getting into violent confrontations in the first place. I'm very selective of where I go out drinking nowadays (growing up...), as it's just common sense not to go to the dodgy bars.

I'm interested to know when you would advocate physical self defence then? Are you saying never? Are you saying there is always a non violent way out? That's something I used to believe until some drunk 18-stone nutter came up to me in a club asking if I was "looking at my bird".


edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (01/13/07 12:41 PM)

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#308060 - 01/13/07 01:04 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
JKogas.

Great post, as always your objective and see a bigger picture.

I must confess that I mostly speak from work related situation, where you can’t walk away (well with certain exceptions) sorry for the narrow minded view

You are so right in your comment “Has anyone ever heard of running away?
It’s a hard thing to do, but to use another aphorism “discretion is the better part of valour”

One British definition of the use of force is:- the minimum force required to ensure the return of a safe situation”
So given a situation, was running/walking away enough to ensure a safe situation? If so, then violence would not be justified. (Provided one was able to get away)

Midnightcrawler, absolutely agree, seen it loads of times, both parties in the full belief that they have been slighted by the other.

Regards

Mark

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#308061 - 01/13/07 01:52 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I haven't be involved in any violence, not either work related or when I was on the recieving end of an attempted mugging, in about 20 years, more or less. I can't imagine that a person could provoke me into violence, with anything less than an immidiate threat to myself and/or my family.

that said - once I have satisfied myself that violence is going to happen, I am going to do what ever it takes for that violence to end up with me standing and the other side not standing. being as I am a short fat old man, I am assuming that any such conflict will involve a pre-emptive strike from me.

if somebody is obviously working towards attacking me, I wont think trice about hitting him first. that is jsut common sense.

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#308062 - 01/13/07 04:38 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: globetrotter]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:


being as I am a short fat old man, I am assuming that any such conflict will involve a pre-emptive strike from me.





Globetrotter,

Snap! I'm also old, short and fat (well reasonably fat) but I'm going to assume that I'm sufficiently switched on to ensure that I'm never involved with physical violence outside of the Dojo. That is not a criticism of you in any way and hope that you didn't construe it as such. Please read on for my reply to Mark for additional background to my rationale.

Mark,

Thanks for your comments. Whilst I doubt we will ever agree on this subject, I feel you deserve an explanation of the reasons behind the stance which I take. We need to go back quite a few years, in fact back to the early 60's through to the middle to late 70's.

During that time I worked for record companies and music publishing houses as a 'record plugger',this was an up market term for 'sales rep'. As such I had to visit radio stations (not a lot about in those days, well not 'legit' ones) dance halls , (anyone remember those?) and the 'then' newly emerging discotheques/night clubs. It wasn't a bad job, reasonably well paid, company car, expense account and hotel accommodation. (Not 5 star, or even 4 come to that!!) However I was very happy with my situation as being a single chap and visiting all these exciting establishments opportunities frequently arose to avail myself of 'crumpet' amongst other things.

Part of the job was to check up on the accuracy of the information feedback from dance halls and discotheques of the 'dance floor reaction' to any particular record we were aiming to release. All the establishments I visited got advanced promo copies gratis anything up to six weeks prior to release. Therefore as you can see I have spent a hell of a lot of time in discotheques, dance halls and night clubs in a work related capacity.

From that which I witnessed night after night after night in these establishments up and down the country for many years I can with hand on heart state that the door stewards, security staff, greeters, bouncers whatever you want to call them caused more problems than they ever prevented or cured. It mattered not one jot if there was any justification for the fracas nor the reason for starting it. Any excuse would do, argument over a bird, spilt beer, a piece of clothing being burnt by a cigarette, someone turning and unexpectedly elbowing another in the ribs, you name it and the 'I'll use the term bouncers' would pounce and proceed to beat the crap out of the perceived perpetrator and anybody who got in their way. Any excuse would do, and all in the name of 'pre-empting' a bigger problem and on the pretext of self defense.

Now I would expect you to say that these were no more than bullies, and if you did you would be right, that is exactly what they were. However, if we accept that the word 'Martial' means 'Military' then 'Martial Artist' implies 'One skilled in the arts of the military'. This is where it gets more interesting. Most, but not all of those employed in this capacity were off duty service personnel about 80%, along with off duty police officers (mostly PC's) who had also been in the services accounted for 15%, the other 5% were civilians who just enjoyed a punch up, amature boxers and the like. All, yes I really do mean ALL the problems were started by so called professional 'Martial Artists' on the pretext of 'pre-empting' a problem. This is the reason I took up MA so that I would be able to DEFEND myself against these gormless idiots, but I vowed right from the start that I would NOT under any circumstances lower my behavioral standards to that which I had been party to witnessing.

That is why I stated in an earlier post, that I will ALWAYS witness for the prosecution against anyone who I see taking the first strike option, as I have personally 'tarred them all with the same brush'.

Oh Mark, in this post I have used the expression 'gormless idiots' as that is what I have concluded them to be, please don't be offended by my use of the term.

Regards.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308063 - 01/13/07 08:59 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
We have no obligation to wait for an aggressive person to strike us first because, in case you all haven't realised it, the first strike an aggressor makes can be the last. Comes down to the likelihood of the use of weapons these days.

If you think that pre-emptive strikes are beneath contempt against an aggressor who (these days) likely is carrying a weapon of some sort, you're putting yourself in a position to be gutted. I know many people (a few of them who are friends) who carry illegal weapons, such as concealed knives.

Remember, the law exists to protect the innocent. I honestly think your sweeping generalisations about pre-emptive strikes makes you a very biased juror and a poor representative of the martial arts. If you don't have the objectivity to distance yourself from your personal feelings regarding the issue and look at the facts surrounding the incidents on a case-by-case basis, you may charge an innocent man/woman guilty and leave a hooligan on the streets to attack someone again, maybe resulting in a murder which could have been easily avoided by good, objective judgement.

Pre-emptive strikes can be justifiable and honourable and can prevent the death of innocents. In these days of regular terrorism, a person who throws a pre-emptive strike could save many lives. Surely this would be an honourable thing? Sweeping generalisations help nothing.

Perhaps you are such an exemplary martial artist that you don't have to worry about being stuck with a shiv/pocket knife by surprise but I sure as heck know that many people are not (including myself). Times have changed in most of the world and it's not as safe a place as it used to be.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308064 - 01/13/07 10:06 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Well, I don't have a 15 year old daughter. My youngest daughter is 26.




You haven't answered the question, So she should wait to be struck or raped, before fighting back???

Quote:

Photographic and video evidence rarely proves innocence,



It doesn't have to it has to prove guilt.

Imagine you view footage: one man is constantly moving into the personal space of another, his body language is aggressive and domineering. the other man is backing up with his hands raised in as passive posture. After a moment the second man suddenly strikes the aggressive one with the heel of his palm straight into his chin, knocking him off his feet. The striker quickly backs away moving off camera.

There are witnesses most of them say there was an argument and that guy knocked the other down. but one or two of them said they heard the man, who struck, say several times that he didn't want to fight.

You're a member of the jury, keeping in mind reasonable doubt, do you vote the man guilty of assault, or do you except his claim the he acted preemptively in self defence.

Actually I'l post this as a poll in another thread, just for curiosity.

Quote:

Can anyone tell me how to put multiple quotes into a reply please?



I've been using cut & paste and the quote function in the instant UBB code box, but there probably is an easier way
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308065 - 01/13/07 11:04 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Leo,

My mind on this matter was made up years ago, the circumstances of which I posted above. Maybe you would like to re-read it and try to see where I'm coming from. I PERSONALLY made a decision about pre-emption based upon MY scruples and morals, and based on my moral code I consider those who are willing and enthusiastic and teach to strike pre-emptively to be beneath contempt, in particular those who teach it, as by so doing (especially to kids) they continue the myth that pre-emption is OK and is justified, when any 'decent' person can see the moral laxity and redundancy in this attitude. As I have said; I will always witness against the pre-emptive striker (IE for the prosecution) should the opportunity arise, and I would of course try a case according to the evidence as is demanded by law. Should the evidence suggest pre-emption then that person is going down if I'm on the jury.

I'm personally sick to death of the prevailing attitude that 'anything a Martial Artist does is OK' as they will always be in the right. Wrong, they are just as likely to be in breach of the law as is any other sector of society. Get it kids, 'there's nothing special about us' we don't have any more rights than anyone else.

As to the matter of your friends carrying concealed weapons, your duty to society is to report these persons to the authorities immediately if not sooner. If they use these weapons then you will be culpable in the committing of an offence. The carriage of weapons is not a new phenomenon, as far back as the 1950's the 'Teds' used to carry cutthroat razors, and stitch razor blades behind their lapels in case they were grabbed by them.

I don't expect to win any popularity contests on this, just to demonstrate a more MORAL stance than is usually brought to bear. Also, I am not an ambassador for martial arts and have never claimed or professed to be one, I just abhor violent and immoral behaviour and will not allow pre-emption to be taught in my Dojo. No I'm not the Sensie, but I am the landlord.

drgndrew,

I have already said that I do not have a daughter of 15 yrs of age, my youngest daughter is 26, so I have answered your question. If you keep on about her age she might end up aged 90 before the point is grasped!!!

As to your second point, I thought you would know the answer by now. I'd convict the bugger as he struck first, thereby initiating the violence. Not difficult to grasp now is it?

Regards.

MC.


Edited by Midnightcrawler (01/13/07 11:22 PM)
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308066 - 01/13/07 11:39 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
You're avoiding the question, which is a natural reaction when answering truthfully contradicts a previous stance, let me rephrase it:

Would your view still be the same if it was your 26 yr old daughter fighting of the "gentleman" who now expects something in return for the "insert favour" he just done for her?

So she should wait to be struck or raped, before fighting back???
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308067 - 01/14/07 03:29 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Nice post again Midnightcrawler

Your comment “caused more problems than they ever prevented or cured”

Is of course totally correct, from your perspective.
Door staff now HAVE to be a very different breed, new qualifications, training and CRB check, to remove the “gormless idiots” and prevent more starting door work. Doesn’t work perfectly, but it has really changed the Thug element..

I really like your comment:-

“I would NOT under any circumstances lower my behavioural standards to that which I had been party to witnessing.”

Door supervision has now become a professional occupation, so door staff should behave in a professional manner at all times.

You said:-
“I'm personally sick to death of the prevailing attitude that 'anything a Martial Artist does is OK'”

Wow!! That is spot on as well!!! So many think that the are some sort of comic book superhero………..

So if we don’t agree on the principle of pre-emptive strikes, we do seem to agree on much else

Regards

Gormless Idiot {Mark}

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#308068 - 01/14/07 06:57 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

You're avoiding the question, which is a natural reaction when answering truthfully contradicts a previous stance, let me rephrase it:

Would your view still be the same if it was your 26 yr old daughter fighting of the "gentleman" who now expects something in return for the "insert favour" he just done for her?

So she should wait to be struck or raped, before fighting back???




I have no intention of changing my stance on this subject irrespective of the cute way in which you praise your question. OK, got it? Stop trying to play silly sods, you ain't good enough.

Obviously I would not be involved in jury service if my youngest daughter was in the dock charged with assault. Should she be found guilty, she deserves the proscribed legal punishment. If she did strike pre-emptively and get off, she then has me to deal with and she wouldn't want that outcome believe me.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308069 - 01/14/07 07:13 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Leo,

My mind on this matter was made up years ago, the circumstances of which I posted above. Maybe you would like to re-read it and try to see where I'm coming from. I PERSONALLY made a decision about pre-emption based upon MY scruples and morals, and based on my moral code I consider those who are willing and enthusiastic and teach to strike pre-emptively to be beneath contempt, in particular those who teach it, as by so doing (especially to kids) they continue the myth that pre-emption is OK and is justified, when any 'decent' person can see the moral laxity and redundancy in this attitude. As I have said; I will always witness against the pre-emptive striker (IE for the prosecution) should the opportunity arise, and I would of course try a case according to the evidence as is demanded by law. Should the evidence suggest pre-emption then that person is going down if I'm on the jury.




Your choice if you want to make sweeping generalisations. I surmise that you can live with sending an innocent person to jail and leaving an aggressive combatant on the street. I know that I couldn't.

Quote:

I'm personally sick to death of the prevailing attitude that 'anything a Martial Artist does is OK' as they will always be in the right. Wrong, they are just as likely to be in breach of the law as is any other sector of society. Get it kids, 'there's nothing special about us' we don't have any more rights than anyone else.




So a non martial artist could be justified in striking first too. Why even bring up the issue of whether a pre-emptive striker is a martial artist or not? It's a non-issue in the eyes of the law.

Quote:

As to the matter of your friends carrying concealed weapons, your duty to society is to report these persons to the authorities immediately if not sooner.




The friends who I have who do carry weapons do not live in this country. Hence, I can not report them to the autorities here. But rest assured that if people do elsewhere, they do here. I don't see why I should have to justify this, I know about how things can get in places such as Glasgow and Liverpool.

Quote:

If they use these weapons then you will be culpable in the committing of an offence. The carriage of weapons is not a new phenomenon, as far back as the 1950's the 'Teds' used to carry cutthroat razors, and stitch razor blades behind their lapels in case they were grabbed by them.




Exactly why we can be in great danger just by being approached by an aggressor. I stand by my belief that pre-emptive strikes are justified if all other self defensive measures have been exhausted. Even then, a pre-emptive strike may not be enough to protect your own life.

Quote:

I don't expect to win any popularity contests on this, just to demonstrate a more MORAL stance than is usually brought to bear. Also, I am not an ambassador for martial arts and have never claimed or professed to be one, I just abhor violent and immoral behaviour and will not allow pre-emption to be taught in my Dojo. No I'm not the Sensie, but I am the landlord.




From an ethical perspective, I would argue that a pre-emptive strike used with the intention of defending oneself or other people who are almost assuredly going to be harmed by an aggressor is justified. From a utilitarian perspective, consider the greatest good for the greatest number. The incapacitation (likely temporary) of an aggressor can save the life of not just the person defending themselves but the people in the vicinity.

By your logic, we are not justified in pro-actively defending ourself but must wait until after we are injured to protect our person. I would contend that a person who has been struck violently (especially with a weapon) may already be dead. You can't defend yourself if you're dead, can you? The principle of reactive self defense approaches paradox, if you have been struck your ability to defend yourself goes right down the drain. We may as well consider self defense a pointless act.

Sir, I would like to hear your opinion of what should be done in the situation described in the following thread:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=1#Post15909295
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308070 - 01/14/07 08:14 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Quote:

You're avoiding the question, which is a natural reaction when answering truthfully contradicts a previous stance, let me rephrase it:

Would your view still be the same if it was your 26 yr old daughter fighting of the "gentleman" who now expects something in return for the "insert favour" he just done for her?

So she should wait to be struck or raped, before fighting back???




I have no intention of changing my stance on this subject irrespective of the cute way in which you praise your question. OK, got it? Stop trying to play silly sods, you ain't good enough.

Obviously I would not be involved in jury service if my youngest daughter was in the dock charged with assault. Should she be found guilty, she deserves the proscribed legal punishment. If she did strike pre-emptively and get off, she then has me to deal with and she wouldn't want that outcome believe me.

MC.




In that case can you tell me where you teach so that I can make sure to tell anyone who isn't an alpha male martial arts expert not to train with you.

REALITY BASED SELF DEFENCE IS ABOUT SURVIVAL

I can not believe you have just said that a young lady cannot defend herself preemptively infact what your saying is that it would be wrong for her to defend herself and that she should put up with rape.

you have no idea do you, go back an live in your cocooned little world o pretend and make-believe. this is a SELF_DEFENCE sub forum go play big boy in a martial arts forum. or at least get a clue

ooooh i spent times in a discotheque and started punching air 30 years ago, I know all about violence, in fact I'm so good I carry a knife to give to my attacker to make it fair, I'll even let him stab me first because I'm so righteous , and up my self that I wouldn't allow myself to be lowered to that level, even my daughter will regret the day she preempts a rapist.

fuckwit dickheads like you get people killed

(edited to tone it down a bit)


Edited by drgndrew (01/14/07 08:21 AM)
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308071 - 01/14/07 08:48 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Now don't go getting all uptight, you'll only give yourself high blood pressure.

By checking out your profile I see you are a "Professional Self Defense Instructor". I can therefore see where you are coming from and can summate your attitude in two words.

These words are VESTED INTEREST.

Regards.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308072 - 01/14/07 09:35 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
yes I am a self protection instructor,

I must apologise for blowing steam of at you like that, I teach female self protection and rape prevention, and I am very passionate about this subject.

Do you want a reality check, spend half an hour talking to a rape victim, A beautiful young lady who's skin has been scrubbed red raw in an attempt to make her feel clean again, who has had all of their confidence and self worth taken away from them, who can't enjoy a simple cuddle from a her husband or male loved one, someone who finds it difficult to even be alone in a room with a male, even one trying to help her gain enough confidence back to just hit a focus pad once. Try teaching her how to escape a simple wrist pin/grap what ever when all you see from her is pure terror.

So yes I have a vested interest, what ever you mean by that.

if I can stop just one woman having to experience the aftermath of rape let alone the act itself then I will. If teaching her how to how to feign compliance and passiveness in order to set the [censored] up for a preemptive strike is what it takes then fucken' hey I'll teach it. and I'll be proud that I did.

So I'm a "Professional Self Defence Instructor" with a "vested interest" Though I prefer the term Self Protection Instructor and have never used the word profesional, year I get paid to teach but I barely cover costs infact my club probably owes me money, I don't teach for the money, I teach because I want to make a difference not because I have a vested interest in $.

And please dont assume I'm just a smart arse kid i've done my 20 yr apprenticeship with TMA (and I'm talking true TMA not the mcdojo sport crap that passes themselves of as a Traditional Martial Art now a days. I've been paid to face 100's of violent people most of which I was able to deescalate and have them walk, some just had to be "convinced" and would not be persuaded otherwise.

I think it is Honourable that you do not want to strike first and no one can tell you to do otherwise. What I found less honourable is that you imply that anyone who does preempt or who advocates preemption are some what lower then you, beneath you or are lowering themselves to that of the scum that we train to defend against.

Do not hit first is a lovely sentiment, sadly the empirical data would indicate it to be flawed. "he who hits first wins" isn't just a catchy phrase it's a truism that has been found true by the people who's material I have studied.

Good luck With it all


Edited by drgndrew (01/14/07 09:36 AM)
_________________________
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With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#308073 - 01/14/07 03:36 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

yes I am a self protection instructor,

I must apologise for blowing steam of at you like that,




No need to apologise. Its just that you were getting uptight, we all do that from time to time, its just human nature.

Quote:

how to escape a simple wrist pin/grap what ever when all you see from her is pure terror.




Every school teaches that type of technique.

Quote:

So yes I have a vested interest, what ever you mean by that.

If I can stop just one woman having to experience the aftermath of rape let alone the act itself then I will. If teaching her how to how to feign compliance and passiveness in order to set the [censored] up for a preemptive strike is what it takes then fucken' hey I'll teach it. and I'll be proud that I did.




Its your conscience chum. What guarantee do you have that the knowledge will never be misused? After all as you say they have been under considerable stress and like training a guard dog once it has bitten and tasted fresh blood the first time, its a hell of a lot more likely to do so again and again. Why is this so? Well because it likes it and is rewarded for its behaviour, it feels good to take a perceived reward for taught behavioural patterns.

Quote:

And please dont assume I'm just a smart arse kid i've done my 20 yr apprenticeship with TMA (and I'm talking true TMA not the mcdojo sport crap that passes themselves of as a Traditional Martial Art now a days. I've been paid to face 100's of violent people most of which I was able to deescalate and have them walk, some just had to be "convinced" and would not be persuaded otherwise.




I never did make that assumption, and its good that you are able to be that persuasive.

Quote:

I think it is Honourable that you do not want to strike first and no one can tell you to do otherwise. What I found less honourable is that you imply that anyone who does preempt or who advocates preemption are some what lower then you, beneath you or are lowering themselves to that of the scum that we train to defend against.




Thank you for the positive compliment, no one forced you to do that it was completely voluntary and very decent of you. However I do take the view that those who willingly embrace the concept of pre-emption are in fact lowering themselves not to the level of the scum (scum bit we agree on) which we train against, but rather to a position somewhat lower than that. The reason for this stance is that the 'scum' know no better, we do, or at least we should.

Quote:

Do not hit first is a lovely sentiment, sadly the empirical data would indicate it to be flawed. "he who hits first wins" isn't just a catchy phrase it's a truism that has been found true by the people who's material I have studied.




Thank you also for that, but I have always been of the opinion that in a SD situation the objective is to get away and not to win, winning implies a 'fight situation' not SD. If as you have said, you show escape from wrist grabs, bear hugs etc, there should be no need to teach pre-emptive strikes.

Good luck With it all




Many thanks.

MC.


Edited by Midnightcrawler (01/14/07 04:23 PM)
_________________________
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#308074 - 01/14/07 09:49 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
MNC,

you seem to be very convinced that you can survive any first strike, and turn the situation around in your favor.

either that, or you are convinced that the value of your ethical position is good enough that it is worth dying for.

I would not be convinced of either point.

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#308075 - 01/14/07 10:31 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
I'll agree to disagree with regards the preemptive strike.

as for my my little tanty, I allowed a nerve to be touched, blame it on me not having my nanny nap

I think if we really got down to it we would have far more overall agreements than disagreements.

For the record I'm very much behind the awareness, and avoidance aspect of self protection. I've had two articles published in Blitz MA mag and another to be published next month, all to do with awareness, avoidance and the like. (yeah I'm dropping a plug for my self there ) and i do see the pre-empt as just one of many legit strategies.

Friends?
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308076 - 01/14/07 10:38 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi Drew,

Friends? Hell yes, there never was any question of that from my end. Maybe I have a problem, in that I always consider a stranger to be a friend that I have yet to know.

Its nice to find new friends. Thanks.

Best regards.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308077 - 01/14/07 10:41 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: globetrotter]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Globetrotter,

I'm not being rude, but I can answer your question in one word. Both !!

Stay good.


MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308078 - 01/14/07 11:41 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

I have already said that I do not have a daughter of 15 yrs of age, my youngest daughter is 26, so I have answered your question. If you keep on about her age she might end up aged 90 before the point is grasped!!!

As to your second point, I thought you would know the answer by now. I'd convict the bugger as he struck first, thereby initiating the violence. Not difficult to grasp now is it?



Midnight, possinly the most stupid view I have ever seen. drgndrew is right. Although you and I share the same view of preemptive strikes, my reasons are totally different and at the very least, good ones. I wouldnt use preemptive strikes because I don think they would work 70% of the time , not because i disagree with their principles. If you feel that it is A) neccesary and B) able to be pulled off then by all means go for it. drgndrew you were right, but I dont reccomend a girl use a preemptive strike against her horny boyfriend. You know what would happen? shed hit him, hed get [censored] off and rape her. I think she should try and convince him with words, and if it gets to the stage where she needs to hit, such as him grabbing her, after shes said this, then its not preemptive any more. Its " beat the crap out of this sonofabitch til his head is knocked off then run away.
Midnight, in all honesty your views are actually rather silly, and outdated/unrealistic. Its hard to believe you said that having a daughter yourself, as you seemed to be putting the law above her and everyone elses protection. I dont give a crap if its illegal. Im gonna do anything I need to do in my defence. Thats the view you should have, instead of " no we cant protect ourselves its illegal". [censored] the law
_________________________
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#308079 - 01/15/07 05:59 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

I have already said that I do not have a daughter of 15 yrs of age, my youngest daughter is 26, so I have answered your question. If you keep on about her age she might end up aged 90 before the point is grasped!!!

As to your second point, I thought you would know the answer by now. I'd convict the bugger as he struck first, thereby initiating the violence. Not difficult to grasp now is it?




Quote:

Its hard to believe you said that having a daughter yourself, as you seemed to be putting the law above her and everyone elses protection.




I have in fact two Daughters and two Sons all of which are doing very well. My oldest Daughter has been married five years and hopefully will make me a granddad before two long, provided that is between the two of them her husband and her are able to work out what goes where. I ask you five years and no kids. I failed in her education somewhere!!

No-one (yes that's right) No-one is above the law of the land, and I'll provide two examples by way of explanation. Her Majesty the Queen pays income tax just like everyone else, and you might remember what happened to the President of the USA in the 1970's one Richard Nixon when he overstepped the mark. It was known as the 'Watergate Scandal'.

Quote:

I dont give a crap




Have you tried Senna pods mate?

Oh, sorry I'll read that again!!

Quote:

I dont give a crap if its illegal. Im gonna do anything I need to do in my defence. Thats the view you should have, instead of " no we cant protect ourselves its illegal". [censored] the law




From your above statement I conclude that you have no respect for the law. This being the case I quite rightly put you at the same level as the scum which Drew and myself referred to in some earlier posts. Anyone who disrespects the law I would categorise in the same manner. A person cannot consider themselves to be an upright law abiding citizen, 'which I would expect you do' and then pick and chose which laws they elect to obey. Its an all or nothing situation, if you step over that line I'll take great pleasure in helping to put anyone down. Tax fiddlers, embezzelers, arsonists, bank robbers, muggers, drug dealers or pre-empters, makes no difference to me, they are all in the same boat.

Quote:

Thats the view you should have, instead of " no we cant protect ourselves its illegal". [censored] the law




Never tell me how I should think. Having worked my arse off I have three degrees from various institutions. This might suggest that I am in fact more highly qualified than yourself. OK there is the chance I may not be, but don't tell me how to think. One of the marks of Nazi Germany was that it told its citizens how to think, one of the marks of the Bushido Academy of Martial Arts (UK) is that it tells its customers how to think. Don't do that with me. EVER.

MC


Edited by Midnightcrawler (01/15/07 06:02 AM)

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#308080 - 01/15/07 06:32 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

rom your above statement I conclude that you have no respect for the law. This being the case I quite rightly put you at the same level as the scum which Drew and myself referred to in some earlier posts. Anyone who disrespects the law I would categorise in the same manner. A person cannot consider themselves to be an upright law abiding citizen, 'which I would expect you do' and then pick and chose which laws they elect to obey. Its an all or nothing situation, if you step over that line I'll take great pleasure in helping to put anyone down. Tax fiddlers, embezzelers, arsonists, bank robbers, muggers, drug dealers or pre-empters, makes no difference to me, they are all in the same boat.



Oh believe me I respect the law, I respect the "don't speed" and " don't drink and drive" types of laws, and I follow them, Cant say I respect any law that gets me killed however.

"and then pick and chose which laws they elect to obey. Its an all or nothing situation, if you step over that line I'll take great pleasure in helping to put anyone down. Tax fiddlers, embezzelers, arsonists, bank robbers, muggers, drug dealers or pre-empters, makes no difference to me, they are all in the same boat."

No their not, If I...say speed, sure I've broken the law, but I'm no murderer.

Quote:

Never tell me how I should think. Having worked my arse off I have three degrees from various institutions. This might suggest that I am in fact more highly qualified than yourself.


So? doesn't seem to have helped you. You can have all the damn degrees you want, doesn't mean you know more than me about this subject. In fact you have LESS knowledge than me on this subject from the looks of things.
You have still managed not to reply to my main point, which was that you so far, have put the law above peoples welfare. v for vendetta anyone? Laws are meant to help people you know. in fact, lets do a poll.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308081 - 01/15/07 06:34 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Would you, if your life was endangered or a simalar situation occured, break the law for your own safety?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 01/15/07 06:33 AM
View the results of this poll.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308082 - 01/15/07 07:00 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Crabby,

Lets try another poll.

Just to clarify something. My education has taught me to apply rational judgement, and to apply critical faculty to a situation, instead of just taking instruction as being 'gospel' and being TOLD how to think and WHAT to think. Far too many MA instructors try to get their customers to think in the same was as they do themselves, this is probably something to do with all that Zen rubbish which many MA organisations involve themselves in. I would much rather think and analyse for myself rather than being told how and what to think/do.

MC.
Would you willingly accept the legal ramifications of lawbreaking? IE Imprisonment or heavy financial penalty, criminal record, inability to obtain employment, financial penalties of living off benefits, social stigma etc.
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 01/15/07 06:59 AM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.


Edited by Midnightcrawler (01/15/07 07:10 AM)
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308083 - 01/15/07 07:02 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
I voted yes, because I would be happily rotting away in prison, thinking, god damn I'm lucky I hit that dude in the face, or else right now id be dead instead of in jail. I think most people here would agree

(edit) you have still failed to reply to my question


Edited by crablord (01/15/07 07:04 AM)
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308084 - 01/15/07 07:17 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

Just to clarify something. My education has taught me to apply rational judgement, and to apply critical faculty to a situation, instead of just taking instruction as being 'gospel' and being TOLD how to think and WHAT to think. Far too many MA instructors try to get their customers to think in the same was as they do themselves, this is probably something to do with all that Zen rubbish which many MA organisations involve themselves in. I would much rather think and analyse for myself rather than being told how and what to think/do.



You know the reason we go to martial arts instructors? because they know more than us, which is why we LET them tell us what to do. Nuff said
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308085 - 01/15/07 08:01 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Crabby,

Yes you are right we do "let them tell us what to do" in that they instruct us in the physical techniques, but that does not mean that I will permit myself to be indoctrinated in their way of thinking. I once found myself in this situation and the instructor was adamant that we all had to think along her lines.

I was the first customer to tell her to mind her own business and to teach techniques as that was what we were paying for. If I wanted philosophy I'd pay a philosopher to teach me, if I wanted religion I'd go to a Priest, Rabbi, Mullah or whatever qualified person represented the religion I was interested in. Once I'd made my stand, she lost at least 50% of her customers. So don't for one moment conclude that I'm the only MA customer who feels this way.

A question for you please. What makes you think that you assume a sufficient level of importance in someone else's life that they would A) want to, and B)try to kill you?

MC.


Edited by Midnightcrawler (01/15/07 08:05 AM)
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308086 - 01/15/07 08:05 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
When you take a karate class, you are not taking a boxing class, you are taking a karate class, that includes the physical and mental sides of karate. This includes their philosophies. Want the straight up fighting with no bs? pay for boxing. The bottom line is, that instructors are the ones who are going to know more than us, and from your posts, you could really use some of the mental aspects of martial arts.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308087 - 01/15/07 08:14 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

A question for you please. What makes you think that you assume a sufficient level of importance in someone else's life that they would A) want to, and B)try to kill you?


..weird question. Ok first, most of the time its not someone you know, its randoms on the street. If it is, its (as suggested before) a boyfriend/girlfriend situation. And to the question, no I dont think anyone I know would want to kill me, though I have had my fair share of randoms trying to knock my head in. I posted a topic on one of these not long ago infact
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308088 - 01/15/07 09:49 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
MNC,

fair enough, that is your right, and I respect that.

not to be rude, either, but that seems to be an extention of simply deciding that you wouldnt use violence under any circomstances, and not being willing to defend yourself -

anyway, lets hope that none of us ever need this in a real situation.

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#308089 - 01/15/07 09:59 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

What makes you think that you assume a sufficient level of importance in someone else's life that they would A) want to, and B)try to kill you?

MC.





frankly, the only reason that I would use violence, at this point in my life, was if I thought somebody was willing to use sufficient violence to kill me or a member of my family.

I am suprised, espectially with the level of irational volence being used in the UK, that you ask this quesiton. just recently I read about a teen age boy who was killed on the train in the UK, by another teen, for no better reason than the killer thought the other boy was looking at his girlfriend. crazy things happen.

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#308090 - 01/15/07 11:11 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: globetrotter]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hello Globetrotter,

Thanks for your post, you also come across as being a 'reasonable' chap, and I didn't think you were being rude.

Please don't misunderstand my stance. I would use violence in order to defend myself, but only as an absolute last resort and then only to defend myself not someone else, if someone else is taking a pounding its their problem I don't see any reason for me to risk getting damaged to save somebody else's arse or face. I'm not in the services or the police force, I don't get paid to fight on someone else's behalf and I'm not some thrill seeking adolescent. The term I believe is SELF defense!!

You see unlike some others, I do not subscribe to the notion that 'the attack starts way before a punch or kick is thrown'. It is impossible to read an other's mind, and that is precisely what some schools teach is possible to do. Rubbish. Until someone launches one at you, you (or I) do not KNOW. We might suspect but we don't KNOW. Supposition is not enough reason in my book to do physical harm to another. Yes I know some go on about 'body language' and all the other phsycobabble crap, watch for when the shoulder dips, skin colour, dilation of eyes ad nauseum. These are all excuses for pre-emption used by those who are enthused at the prospect of taking it to the physical level.

Regards.

MC.
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God only knows; Really.

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#308091 - 01/15/07 11:21 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Lets think of a situation, stormdragon is a young girl (not too hard to imagine) and mattj is her boyfriend.

Storm - I dont want to do _______ with you
mattj - Please?
storm - no, dont come near me, I already told you i dont want to.
*matt grabs/approaches storm anyway
*storm punches matt in the head.

Those are the two points id say you could strike another person in a rapeish type of case. Anytime before that and it would be hard to prove that it was in sd, but if its neccesary, then do it. I think the court would be able to tell that the 15 year old girl didnt hammer her 16 year old boyfriend for no reason.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308092 - 01/15/07 11:24 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Lets imagine Crabby is a transvestite and some guy is pushing it around making it sad and then tries to smack it...The transvestite crabby kicks the guy in the crotch. There we go.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#308093 - 01/15/07 11:50 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Stormdragon]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Topic, please.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#308094 - 01/15/07 12:00 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: MattJ]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
SIRE YES SIR!!!!
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#308095 - 01/15/07 12:18 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi Crabbie.

Quote:

When you take a karate class, you are not taking a boxing class, you are taking a karate class, that includes the physical and mental sides of karate. This includes their philosophies. Want the straight up fighting with no bs? pay for boxing. The bottom line is, that instructors are the ones who are going to know more than us, and from your posts, you could really use some of the mental aspects of martial arts.




I have long since worked out the philosophical and mental aspects of life which are of benefit to me. I do not need some outsider trying to interfere with or modify that which I already know. I can understand why a person of 15 years of age (which is your age if your traceable details are correct) would seek guidance, but why seek it from a sensei, effectively a stranger? Why not seek this aspect of your education from your family, mother, father, sister or brother, someone with blood ties who you can trust? A sensei is no more qualified to provide these aspects than 'the man in the moon', unless they hold professional accredited qualifications in the subject.

You are quite right, I do want the physical side and just that. Why not boxing and why karate? Well karate, TKD, and Krav Maga teach use of all limbs and all ranges, which is something missing in boxing. They also teach the bodies weak and vulnerable points which boxing does not.

Once you have a few years under your belt we'll talk about this again, as I'm pretty sure that you will mature and your views will evolve over the intervening time. DEAL?


Quote:

Quote:

A question for you please. What makes you think that you assume a sufficient level of importance in someone else's life that they would A) want to, and B)try to kill you?


..weird question. Ok first, most of the time its not someone you know, its randoms on the street. If it is, its (as suggested before) a boyfriend/girlfriend situation. And to the question, no I dont think anyone I know would want to kill me, though I have had my fair share of randoms trying to knock my head in. I posted a topic on one of these not long ago infact




Well now, I think the question to ask is; WHY "have you had your fair share of randoms?" What were you doing to attract the attentions of the undesirables? I guess that most blokes worldwide have had a few schoolyard punch-ups, it seems to be and always was 'par for the course' and part of growing up. However, in the main most of us grow out of it as we realise that it is a senseless way of behaving, which has no benefit to anyone. It is usually testosterone fueled posturing which generally fails in its objective of impressing the girls, because it does not impress the girls who if my memory serves me right were (and probably still are) far too intelligent to be impressed by stupidity.

Regards and stay safe. Stay away from these testosterone fueled 'randoms'

MC
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308096 - 01/15/07 12:28 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

I can understand why a person of 15 years of age (which is your age if your traceable details are correct) would seek guidance, but why seek it from a sensei, effectively a stranger? Why not seek this aspect of your education from your family, mother, father, sister or brother, someone with blood ties who you can trust?



Because they dont know diddly squat about self defence, a sensei does. Sure its a complete stranger, but so is the kindegarden teacher who you give your kids to every day. Learn to trust people.

Quote:

Once you have a few years under your belt we'll talk about this again, as I'm pretty sure that you will mature and your views will evolve over the intervening time. DEAL?



no deal, I dont need 10 years of karate experience to know that you are dead wrong on most of these matters.

Quote:

Well now, I think the question to ask is; WHY "have you had your fair share of randoms?


Ive provoked fights, and Ive had situations where Ive been hammered for no reason at all. People are unpredictable, which comes back to the topic, preemptive strikes. You seem to be against this, as you fear the legal consequences, have you not considered that its better to be alive and getting sued than dead and with a perfect record? Im advocating striking an attacker when they are behaving dangerously and can injure you. You seem totally against this for almost laughable reasons. A simple yes or no question for you. Is the law more important to you than your/others safety?
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308097 - 01/15/07 12:48 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi Crabbie

Quote:

Storm - I dont want to do _______ with you
mattj - Please?
storm - no, dont come near me, I already told you i dont want to.
*matt grabs/approaches storm anyway
*storm punches matt in the head.





This is an excellent example of the 'right' time to respond in a display of CONTROLLED violence, as in this example Matt has grabbed Storm. In this example you have got it totally right. Although having been grabbed, Storm is not pre-empting anything, the assault is in progress and she is defending herself. It makes a big difference, 'at least to me it does'. If Matt is just approaching Storm then why doesn't she just get the hell out of there? Run away, there's no shame in running, it's a valid SD technique. In the majority of instances running isn't used due to ego taking over. For some reason ego is less prevalent in females than in males, testosterone again I expect.

To answer your other question. The upholding of the law of the land is the responsibility of ALL good citizens. I personally loath paying tax but I do so because it is the law. If it was to be made voluntary I wouldn't do it.

MC.


Edited by Midnightcrawler (01/15/07 12:58 PM)

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#308098 - 01/15/07 12:55 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

This is an excellent example of the 'right' time to respond in a display of CONTROLLED violence, as in this example Matt has grabbed Storm. In this example you have got it totally right. Although having been grabbed, Storm is not pre-empting anything, the assault is in progress and she is defending herself. It makes a big difference, 'at least to me it does.


That was my example of when I would strike, and when it should be used. And I did say grabs/moves towards - the latter of which a strike would be "preemptive" as noone has exchanged blows/contact.

Quote:

To answer your other question. The upholding of the law of the land is the responsibility of ALL good citizens. I personally loath paying tax but I do so because it is the law. If it was to be made voluntary I wouldn't do it.


Thats True, and actually quite honorable, but you have left out the other part of your opinion. That this law is above our right to survive. Personally id rather break the law, and live. Not a hard choice in my eyes, and for you? I would consider that a good view to teach upon others. ESPECIALLY not girls.

(EDIT!!!) ok first dont edit your posts and add a major paragrath in, make a new post. You said its better to run. Lets assume we're... outside a bar with your mates. Some drunk is raving to you and gets too close, you can either A) run, preserve yourself, but embarass yourself or B) Whack him and make him back off. Thats a more bloky situation. Sure if the time calls for it then run away, but lets say you cant. You are bringing up otehr option,s but are trying to drift away from THE topic, which is preemptive strikes, not things to do INSTEAD. And i dont see anything wrong with them


Edited by crablord (01/15/07 01:03 PM)
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308099 - 01/15/07 01:36 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
MNC,

I think that we are tied up (or at least I am) on the "never" - ok, let me try this question - it is 4 am, you have just gotten in off of an 8 hour flight, and you are in a city that isn't your home. you are walking to your hotel from the train station, and, a block or so from your hotel, a man is walking on the sidewalk towards you, not terribly threatening. you have a heavy garment bag/computer bag from your shoulder, and he is between you and your hotel.you take the right side of the wide sidewalk, and he vers toward your path. you shift left, and he shifts left. you stop, and he says "got any money for me?", with a vaguly threatening look. you say no, and shift again, and he shifts into your path and says again "I want your money".

what do you do?

this is something, by the way, that happened to me.

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#308100 - 01/15/07 02:13 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: globetrotter]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I'M A GUY!!!
And do unto others BEFORE they do unto you.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#308101 - 01/15/07 02:17 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: globetrotter]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
errr Crablord, sorry but this is a silly thing to say:-

"Because they dont know diddly squat about self defence, a sensei does"

Most sensei teach Ineffective by the numbers MA, with little personal real world experience.
The idea being to get as many students as possible and take as much money from them as possible.

mark

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#308102 - 01/15/07 02:33 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
This whole issue hinges on the true definition of the word "pre-emptive". In the U.S. the law allows for a victim to "defend" him/herself when the offender makes any actions or states any words that a "reasonable person" would believe are a precursor to violence. For example, when a person says "I'm gonna kick your a**" to you, IF a reasonable person would believe that 1) he meant it, & 2) the attack IS IMMINENT , you can defend yourself.

Making such a statement is illegal in the US & is called an "assault", NOT to be confused with a "battery" which is an "unwanted touching".

However, semantically speaking, once you respond to a "battery", you are NOT acting pre-emptively anymore (you are acting responsively).


ALSO: young master Crablord. You need to chill out! At age 15, and living at home with mommy & daddy, you SHOULD show more respect to other ADULTS on this board (and elsewhere).

Disagree respectfully & DON'T have the expectation that others are going to conform to your OPINIONS! When discussing philosophy, NO one is ever "right" or "wrong", yet come from different perspectives.

Also, if I read anothert one of your posts discussing your MANY, MANY fights and skirmishes, I'm gonna vomit.

Trouble rarely finds a person time and again, but certain people, thru actions & attitudes search out trouble themselves (whether they are aware of this or not).

You seem to be quick to get angry, quick to argue, quick to insult, quick to fight! Please realize that at 15, the vast majority of male adults on this planet (regardless of martial arts training) could probably hurt you in a fight.

And... judging from your posts, it sounds like it would do you some good!

So, be quiet, be humble, LEARN and ANALYZE situations, & stop reacting with immediate anger. Bad attitude + bad luck (wrong opponent) = early grave.

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#308103 - 01/15/07 02:39 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Eternal_Student]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
We all do realise that pre-emptive strikes are legal right? I mean, the polls posted earlier seem to imply that striking first in self defense is illegal and will result in imprisonment. Sure, there's a chance that this will happen if the jury is composed mostly of people who view the subject the same way as Midnightcrawler, however it's technically legal.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308104 - 01/15/07 03:01 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
NO... generally, pre-emptive strikes are ILLEGAL! (it all depends on what's "pre-emptive" to you. does it mean before any actual strike is thrown by the "agressor"? does it mean before the "agressor" does or says something that would make the reasonable person believe an attack is imminent?

Again, in the US, the agressor MUST say or do something that would make the reasonable person believe that an attack was imminent (going to occur immediately). Also, the act Must be no more damaging to the attacker that would be reasonable to defend him/herself.

Semantically, pre-emptive infers acting BEFORE the agressor makes such an action.

Also, generally, juries are dumb. The better attorney almost always wins (unless the evidence on one side is overwhealming"

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#308105 - 01/15/07 03:09 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Eternal_Student]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

NO... generally, pre-emptive strikes are ILLEGAL! (it all depends on what's "pre-emptive" to you. does it mean before any actual strike is thrown by the "agressor"? does it mean before the "agressor" does or says something that would make the reasonable person believe an attack is imminent?

Again, in the US, the agressor MUST say or do something that would make the reasonable person believe that an attack was imminent (going to occur immediately). Also, the act Must be no more damaging to the attacker that would be reasonable to defend him/herself.

Semantically, pre-emptive infers acting BEFORE the agressor makes such an action.




I'm just assuming that a pre-emptive strike implies that an indication of impending harm has already been found. If no such indications are present, I would have used the term assault and battery. Pre-emptive strikes are legal, assault and battery are not, context must be taken into account.

Furthermore, in the UK:

Quote:

A man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot; circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike.



- Lord Griffith

http://www.lawteacher.net/Criminal/General%20Defences/Self%20Defence.htm


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/15/07 03:19 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308106 - 01/15/07 03:18 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
The "battery" is the agressor actually touching/ grabbing/ striking you. If the battery has already happened, then how the heck is your RE-active defense technique "pre-emptive". Pre-emptive means the action takes place BEFORE the battery", in order to prevent it.

If your strike/ sd technique takes place AFTER the battery, then almost EVERYONE would agree that your action was justified & the law is firmly on your side.

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#308107 - 01/15/07 03:20 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"Sure, there's a chance that this will happen if the jury is composed mostly of people who view the subject the same way as Midnightcrawler, however it's technically legal."

This is part of the main point though isn't it?
From the viewpoint of someone who has appeared in court more than most, I would have to say that the majority of people do not understand the law and would interpret an assault as starting at the point where physical contact is made. Wrongly, as hopefully we all know by now, but still the way the majority think.

In all of this debate we have heard about the various giveaways that say an assault is about to happen. You go a jury with the bulging eyes, dipping shoulder and monosyllabic speech argument and you may as well tell them you read it in your horoscope.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#308108 - 01/15/07 03:20 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Eternal_Student]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

The "battery" is the agressor actually touching/ grabbing/ striking you. If the battery has already happened, then how the heck is your RE-active defense technique "pre-emptive". Pre-emptive means the action takes place BEFORE the battery", in order to prevent it.

If your strike/ sd technique takes place AFTER the battery, then almost EVERYONE would agree that your action was justified & the law is firmly on your side.




I'm talking about the act of striking someone when there is no indication that a fight is imminent from the person who is struck. This is an assault on that person.

However, if the person is aggressive and an attack appears to be imminent, it is not assault, but a pre-emptive strike used in self defense.

As to it being a guarantee that you will get self defense if you are second to strike, that is far from the truth. You could be charged with disturbing the peace and consenting to participation in a brawl. Furthermore, depending on your application of force, you could end up being taken as the assailant if the level of force is unreasonably high.

Quote:

"Sure, there's a chance that this will happen if the jury is composed mostly of people who view the subject the same way as Midnightcrawler, however it's technically legal."

This is part of the main point though isn't it?
From the viewpoint of someone who has appeared in court more than most, I would have to say that the majority of people do not understand the law and would interpret an assault as starting at the point where physical contact is made. Wrongly, as hopefully we all know by now, but still the way the majority think.

In all of this debate we have heard about the various giveaways that say an assault is about to happen. You go a jury with the bulging eyes, dipping shoulder and monosyllabic speech argument and you may as well tell them you read it in your horoscope.




Disturbing as it may be, this is definitely true. Yet another reason to avoid fights and escape if you find yourself in a dangerous situation.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/15/07 03:31 PM)
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(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#308109 - 01/15/07 04:53 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: McSensei]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi there Mark, McSensie, Eternal Student and Leo.

Apologies to Globetrotter who asked a specific question but I'll be with you shortly.

It looks as if we have a general consensus that to pre-emptively strike, whilst being legal, is ill advised as the likelyhood of being convicted is to say the least very high.

To my critics of whom there are many!! In one of my posts I said I didn't expect to win any popularity contests on this and I was proved right!! However, I do remain consistent and believe that my opinion is right for me. To those who are not with me on this, my belief is that at that moment in time you do belittle yourselves, as you do know better, or should do. There is always a better way out of the situation, or at least one which will give you a higher chance of not being convicted.

Regards to all.

MC
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308110 - 01/15/07 05:02 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
I have been following along with some confusion. The way everyone is posting sounds as if the pre-emptive strike was a crippling or deadly strike. It doesn't have to be. You could send a front kick to the mid section, send a groin kick, a palm strike, etc., etc. If you have tried avoidance, verbal communication, and other tactics with no success, and you are backed into a corner with no where to go, you need to get out of the situation. It doesn't mean punch them in the throat and stomp their head in while their on the ground. If your unsure of their intentions, send a non crippling strike to get space and get to safety. If you don't do major damage to the person, you won't ever see the inside of a court room.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#308111 - 01/15/07 05:25 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Dedicated1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Here I am on this thread again after I'd already made my point...

As with anything, strategy and tactics depend completely on the situation at hand. To say you are either for or against preemptive striking is absurd!

To say that you would avoid violence when possible is more like it. That's the only sane thing to do. Drastic times call for drastic measures however if it that situation arises, do what you gotta do to go home - what EVER the hell that may be.

Its sort of ridiculous to come here and take a stand one way or the other because just as soon as you say you're against preemptive striking, life will make a liar out of you.

Me, I'm all about the love. That's avoidance. That's making friends of enemies, buying a person a beer, etc and SHOWING them I'm not afraid of 'em. But I do know when to beat feet and when the opportunity presents itself, I'll bolt and not look back. No ego problems here.

At the same time, if someone is in my way through the door, heaven help 'em. It's just a matter of doing what you have to do, no more, no less. Why make a case about it?


-John

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#308112 - 01/15/07 11:26 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Im going for the preemptive strike everytime, and Im trying to crush the opponent with it.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#308113 - 01/16/07 12:11 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Chen Zen]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Some definitions

Preemptive Strike = a physical strike made prior to a physical attack being made against the person. thus pre-empting the attack with one of your own.

Striking first, throwing the first punch etc = the act of being the first person to initiate a physical strike/attack. it can be preemptive or premeditated. it is simply the one who hit first, or attempted to hit first, regardless of motive.

I understand the stance being taken by Midnight Crawler and don't intend to try and change his mind, but I am curious what your feelings is on other preemptive actions besides a strike. for example What is you opinion on preemptively restraining someone with a lock /hold what ever as opposed to hitting them.

Legally holding someone could still be considered assault, even just touching them in some areas.

Another thing we should remind ourselves of is the fact that we are from different countries, and although in general western countries do have similar laws ( actually probably most countries) they are different even between states in the same country.

for eg up until a fairly recently, in NSW Aust one at to prove it was self defence wheres as in QLD one had to prove it wasn't. It has now changed in NSW.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#308114 - 01/16/07 12:35 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Innocent til proven guilty I think the best post on the thread was this.
Quote:


Here I am on this thread again after I'd already made my point...

As with anything, strategy and tactics depend completely on the situation at hand. To say you are either for or against preemptive striking is absurd!

To say that you would avoid violence when possible is more like it. That's the only sane thing to do. Drastic times call for drastic measures however if it that situation arises, do what you gotta do to go home - what EVER the hell that may be.

Its sort of ridiculous to come here and take a stand one way or the other because just as soon as you say you're against preemptive striking, life will make a liar out of you.

Me, I'm all about the love. That's avoidance. That's making friends of enemies, buying a person a beer, etc and SHOWING them I'm not afraid of 'em. But I do know when to beat feet and when the opportunity presents itself, I'll bolt and not look back. No ego problems here.

At the same time, if someone is in my way through the door, heaven help 'em. It's just a matter of doing what you have to do, no more, no less. Why make a case about it?


-John


Nuff said
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308115 - 01/16/07 05:52 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Drew,

Sorry I omitted to include you when I posted my 'vote of thanks' item. Very bad form on my part, please accept my apologies.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308116 - 01/16/07 08:19 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Drew,

Sorry I omitted to include you when I posted my 'vote of thanks' item. Very bad form on my part, please accept my apologies.

MC.



LOL thats cool dude I think I'll survive,

So what do you think of a lesser force option preempt such as restraining. just curious
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#308117 - 01/16/07 09:51 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi Drew,

Ummm? I'm not being pedantic (I hope) but how on earth can you restrain someone who hasn't launched any physical attack? This is a real question, to which I do not have an answer.

My opinion is that a restraining move would be far less likely to see you in court than a striking move, and if applied with skill would be less likely to do damage to the opponent. Yes I could live with that outcome, as I'm not appointing myself Judge, Jury and Executioner.

I still don't understand how a person who has yet to make a move could be restrained though, I mean what would you be restraining them from? Drew mate, would you care to explain?

Regards.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308118 - 01/16/07 10:02 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
You would be stopping them from hitting you. Thats how
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#308119 - 01/16/07 10:27 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Pillock. Try and get a grip. If they haven't made a move there's bugger all to restrain against.

I can see it on your school reports Crabby: Must Try Harder.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308120 - 01/16/07 10:32 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
dude..seriously your missing the point. You are stopping them from hitting you, it doesn't matter whether they've done it yet or not, it matters what they are about to do. If you are sure they are going to hit you, then do something about that, whether it be running, hitting them or grabbing them
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308121 - 01/16/07 10:48 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I think this is valid. However, we need to ascertain how you can be sure that someone is going to hit you. If you can prove that they were going to beyond reasonable doubt in court, you're in a good position to claim self defense.
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#308122 - 01/16/07 11:06 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Now we're gettin down to the 'nitty gritty' of the matter. Good post Leo.


MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308123 - 01/16/07 11:26 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
ok, imagine being in court watching a tape. theres two men standing together, one looks particularly agressive towards the other one, the other one seems to be backing off/avoiding the other person. The other person will not stop, suddenly the person being harrased hits the other person in the face, knocking them on the ground, he then runs.

Would you find him guilty? I wouldnt. However if both were agressive looking towards eachother then one randomly sucker punches the other then stands there gloating then thats when you would be found guilty, otherwise its pretty easy to tell it was in sd.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#308124 - 01/16/07 11:46 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
ChangLab Offline
Sleepy-ninja

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Everything has it's time and place, even violence.
if my "personal space" is invaded in a thretning manner I will strike first decicivly and quickly. before that, I will use every tool at my disposal to avoid a fight.

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#308125 - 01/16/07 11:56 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Now we're gettin down to the 'nitty gritty' of the matter. Good post Leo.


MC.




I would suggest you read this article if you wish to see a viewpoint which I agree with on the subject:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

According to this, there is a definite set of behaviours and indicators which can generally be taken as a protocol for the indication of impending violence against you. If the stages and indicators are present in the altercation, this forms a foundation upon which to build a self-defense claim regarding a pre-emptive strike.

Trying to claim self defense without being well informed about criminal mindset and indicators of violence is a pointless activity. Furthermore, I believe that people should read this article so that if they end up in a self defensive situation, they can confidently use a pre-emptive strike if the situation requires it. Knowledge is power.

A good way to assess and acknowledge your self defensive tactics in relation to the five stages of violence is to follow the pyramid of personal safety (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pyramid.html). My personal defensive layer strategy goes further by adding more layers to the pyramid, acknowledging that pre-emptive strikes are a separate layer from the rest of physical self defense:

1) Common sense
2) Avoidance
3) Awareness
4) Humour/light heartedness
5) Rapport creation
6) Verbal SD
7) Fence
8) Escape
9) Pre-emptive strike
10) Physical self-defense


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/16/07 12:02 PM)
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#308126 - 01/16/07 04:39 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Leo,

It still comes down to whether or not a magistrate or jury actually believe you. As (I think it was McSenesei said) testifying things like 'shoulders dipped, they became monosyllabic, their eyes narrowed, their breathing rate altered and their skin tone changed, would be like telling them (the jury or magistrate) that you had read it in your horoscope.

Anyway, I still hold the same views as I always have, so nothing has changed as far as I am concerned.

MC.
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#308127 - 01/16/07 05:30 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I look at it like this; the law is secondary to my well being. Survive first. If you survive then you can worry about consequence. If you dont survive, none of it matters.

You can tell when you have an aggressive opponent. Observation is a huge part of self defense. If you find yourself in a bad situation your awareness has already failed you. Dont let it fail you again because of fear from repercussion. Use it to read your opponents body language and you will know if he plans to attack. Hit them first, fast, and hard and get out quickly. Would I recommend trying to grab and control straight off the bat? No. After a strike or feint, sure.
_________________________
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#308128 - 01/16/07 05:40 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Leo,

It still comes down to whether or not a magistrate or jury actually believe you. As (I think it was McSenesei said) testifying things like 'shoulders dipped, they became monosyllabic, their eyes narrowed, their breathing rate altered and their skin tone changed, would be like telling them (the jury or magistrate) that you had read it in your horoscope.

Anyway, I still hold the same views as I always have, so nothing has changed as far as I am concerned.

MC.




The patterns described don't just happen by accident and I would say that individually, they are not good indicators but in combination, they form a good indicator as to when an attack may happen. Body language is a very important facet of everyday life, as anyone versed in psychology, NLP or conflict resolution will tell you. This is far from being "horoscope-like", it is a science which has a basis in our evolutionary and social history. Even if you don't strike pre-emptively, acknowledging this may help to save your life in the long run.

Specialists can be brought into court to testify on this issue. It objectifies the claim of self defense, rather than leaving it subjective.

Naturally, I did not expect you to change your principles. However, you must admit that if a pre-emptive strike did occur, this information forms the best argument that it occurred in self defense and may turn a jury or magistrate to the side of accepting the self defense claim. Outside of the circumstances described, a strike is not pre-emptive but must be considered to be assault.
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#308129 - 01/16/07 07:56 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: crablord]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Crabby,

What do criminals do after having committed a crime? They leave the scene as fast as they can, don't they?

You want to MAKE yourself look guilty? Leave the scene as you have described and every juror in the damn world will construe that action as an admission of guilt. The police will be well brassed off because they now have to find you, and lets be honest they only arrest the guy lying on the floor in exceptional circumstances, after all the loser in a fight isn't the one who was most aggressive.

I'll throw my hat into the ring with the police on this, they deal with this type of situation day in, day out and tend to know what they are doing. I uphold the law as best I can as a civilian. I suggest you may benefit from following suite.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308130 - 01/16/07 08:30 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Leo,

Expert witnesses or not, believe me a jury will normally make up its mind AS THE CHARGES ARE READ. Now I know that takes a lot of believing but it is true. Some of the reasons are these.

1) They think: well the police/CPS wouldn't bring it to court if 'they' didn't think the accused was guilty.

2) The police/CPS are much more experienced than we are.

3) The accused ran off after the event, which tends to indicate guilt.

4) The accused did nothing to render any assistance to the injured party.

5) The accused didn't inform the police that they had done damage to the guy on the deck or stay to justify why they acted as they did.

6) As No5, but didn't phone for an ambulance for the injured party.

7) We are told that all these so called indicators took place, but there is no proof of such things happening on the video evidence, or in witness statements or testimony.

8) The arresting officers had to establish the accused's identity and then find their place of abode, further indicating guilt.

9) In the face of all these questions raised the accused denied the charges.

10) The accused's 'body language' in the dock seems to be highly suspect.

Juries are not alone in the manner they form conclusions. Can you remember the last time you went for a job interview? Well the person interviewing you made up their mind about you within the first ten/fifteen seconds of you walking into the room. The rest of the interview (how ever long it took) was spent with the interviewer looking for reinforcement of their initial impression. It wasn't spent with them looking for reasons for them to change their minds.

Regards.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308131 - 01/16/07 08:43 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Chen Zen]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Chen Zen,

A question out of idle curiosity and one which I have as yet to get a satisfactory answer, and I've asked it many times to many people. You might just be the one who is able to satisfy my curiosity.

Q/ If we are watching them for body language clues, what is there to suppose that 'they' are not watching us for the same cues? After all, as has been stated in some of the attachments to Leo's excellent posts, the accumulation of these clues is natural to any predator and cannot be disguised. If we are planning a pre-emprive strike we ourselves are just as predatory, if not more so than our opponent so the clues will be there for them to spot also.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#308132 - 01/16/07 09:07 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Leo,

Expert witnesses or not, believe me a jury will normally make up its mind AS THE CHARGES ARE READ. Now I know that takes a lot of believing but it is true. Some of the reasons are these.

1) They think: well the police/CPS wouldn't bring it to court if 'they' didn't think the accused was guilty.

2) The police/CPS are much more experienced than we are.

3) The accused ran off after the event, which tends to indicate guilt.

4) The accused did nothing to render any assistance to the injured party.

5) The accused didn't inform the police that they had done damage to the guy on the deck or stay to justify why they acted as they did.

6) As No5, but didn't phone for an ambulance for the injured party.

7) We are told that all these so called indicators took place, but there is no proof of such things happening on the video evidence, or in witness statements or testimony.

8) The arresting officers had to establish the accused's identity and then find their place of abode, further indicating guilt.

9) In the face of all these questions raised the accused denied the charges.

10) The accused's 'body language' in the dock seems to be highly suspect.

Juries are not alone in the manner they form conclusions. Can you remember the last time you went for a job interview? Well the person interviewing you made up their mind about you within the first ten/fifteen seconds of you walking into the room. The rest of the interview (how ever long it took) was spent with the interviewer looking for reinforcement of their initial impression. It wasn't spent with them looking for reasons for them to change their minds.

Regards.

MC.




No, I quite agree. However, if a person found themselves in the unfortunate position of supporting a self defense claim (which was true), then the information I provided is the best they can use to defend themselves. Nothing else would even have a chance of swaying a jury, as you have pointed out.

P.S. You make many assumptions about the situation which were not stated in the initial discussion. It may have been the person who pre-empted who called the police, for example. An ambulance may have been phoned for. Note that we are not obligated in any way by law to provide medical assistance for an assailant if they are injured by our actions in self defense. Expecting that is unreasonable when in a dangerous situation.

The police's policy regarding self defense, as I remember it (reported by the BBC a while ago) is called "bash and dash". If you stand around at the scene, you are not acting in self defense because self defense implies that you would remove yourself from a dangerous situation. Running away is in no way an implication of guilt, as long as you inform the police of the incident as soon as you are safe.

Body language is readily viewable on video. The "interview", for example, is a clearly visible activity.

Regarding the clues we give off instinctually, yes an aggressor can theoretically see that we are preparing a pre-emptive strike in many situations. This causes threat elevation and is a dangerous situation to be in indeed. The primary way to avoid this situation happening is to avoid striking pre-emptively until all other methods (in the pyramid) have been exhausted. This way we know that we have done everything in our means possible to avoid the conflict and now must consider defending ourselves physically so that we may gain a chance to escape and, possibly, survive the altercation. Note that in many cases, it has proven to be the case that even after using pre-emptive strikes, a person who is attacked can still end up dead. Hence, if things have fallen to this level, the application of reasonable force may be acceptable.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/16/07 09:14 PM)
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#308133 - 01/16/07 10:08 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

I still don't understand how a person who has yet to make a move could be restrained though, I mean what would you be restraining them from? Drew mate, would you care to explain?

Regards.

MC.




G'day MC

Police and security personnel do it all the time. You are restraining/preventing them from continuing their current course of action. In this sort of situation it would be preventing them from continuing their aggressive actions towards an individual. A course of action that you may reasonable believe would result in violence.

------------

I've always seen Self defence as violence minimalisation. Obviously the best result is no violence occurring at all, hence the importance of awareness avoidance, prevention and de-escalation etc. but if it has to go violent then then the outcome that produces the least amount of overall violence occurring whilst still maintaining my own safety is next best.

A preemptive movement/strike//what ever may just result in a lower level of overall violence occurring.

Just a thought
_________________________
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Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#308134 - 01/17/07 07:39 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Hi Drew,

Quote:

Quote:

I still don't understand how a person who has yet to make a move could be restrained though, I mean what would you be restraining them from? Drew mate, would you care to explain?

Regards.

MC.




G'day MC

Police and security personnel do it all the time. You are restraining/preventing them from continuing their current course of action. In this sort of situation it would be preventing them from continuing their aggressive actions towards an individual. A course of action that you may reasonable believe would result in violence.





OK, thanks for the explanation, I kind of already understood that but thanks for your reply. (Same goes for Crabby as well). I think that my phraseology in my original question was poorly expressed. If its OK with you I'll try again (and hopefully get it right this time!!!).

I'll refer to the aggressor as person (A) for aggressor and the defender as person (D) for defender, (Is there no end to my inventiveness?!! ) in the hope that we all end up singing from the same hymn sheet.

So, persons (A) & (D)are having an argument, person (A) is becoming very heated in defence of their viewpoint, swearing a lot, insulting person (D's) family etc. I'm sure you know the situation. Person (D) becomes concerned for their safety, but person (A) has given few physical indications of violence other than waving their hands around a lot like a windmill. (Cut off some peoples arms and they can't talk, I'm sure you know what I mean). Now, how can you restrain person (A) if they haven't given you a physical opportunity to do so? IE, they haven't gone to punch you or to kick you. I'm not the worlds best grappler, if fact far from it, (unlike my niece who is exceptional) but in order to restrain someone, surely there is a requirement for them to have launched a 'physical' attack on you, or to put it another way offered you a limb with which to grapple? Oh one thing, please remember Drew, your original question on this was "how would i feel about a pre-emptive restraining move?" So for clarity sake lets not get into the 'you would have to make an initial strike in order to set up for the take-down', as that was not part of your question. If it is, then we're back to pre-emptive striking.

Grappling arts are in my opinion far less likely to 'get you into trouble' than striking ones as they are re-active and therefore much more likely to be seen by the public, magistrate or jury as being defensive as opposed to offensive.

Thanks for reading this ramble!!

MC.
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#308135 - 01/17/07 01:40 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure, MC, I'll give it a shot.

As a predatory animal, we see the signs of weakness in our opponents as well as we see the signs of aggression. We recognize these aggressive patterns, and so may our opponent, if he isnt under the influence of some outside stimulus such as drugs or alchohol. However, if he is the antogonist, (if he starts the altercation) then he is likely not looking for signs of aggression but instead for signs of weakness which is why the preemptive strike works so many times.
_________________________
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Lao Tzu

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#308136 - 01/17/07 10:17 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

So, persons (A) & (D)are having an argument, person (A) is becoming very heated in defence of their viewpoint, swearing a lot, insulting person (D's) family etc. I'm sure you know the situation. Person (D) becomes concerned for their safety, but person (A) has given few physical indications of violence other than waving their hands around a lot like a windmill. (Cut off some peoples arms and they can't talk, I'm sure you know what I mean). Now, how can you restrain person (A) if they haven't given you a physical opportunity to do so? IE, they haven't gone to punch you or to kick you.

MC.




Physically their are many techniques available to "tie someone up" without them offering a limb etc, as a bouncer (many moons ago) i did it regularly. if a limb isn't offered you take it.

But, i don't think you mean how in terms of the physical techniques. To justify (person D) restraining them (person A) without a physical attack being launched by "A" (actually this goes for any preemptive move) Person D must have a HONEST BELIEF that it is REASONABLE to assume that physical harm is likely to occur (to person D) if person A is allowed to continue is current course of action.

EG. "D" has tried to deescalate the situation, "D" has tried to remove themselves from the situation but for whatever reason hase not been able to., Person A's level of aggression continues to rise and it is reasonable to assume that "A" will continue to escalate to violence (it doesn't matter how "D" judges this likelihood, what is important is that "D" has an honest and reasonable belief that this will happen)

This is where you'll hear the argument "but how can you really know", "You can't predict the future" etc. The thing is virtually all victims of violent crimes have said that they felt something was wrong.

Intuition, gut feeling, 6th sense or your subconscious picking up on small clues given off by your opponent that Our conscious mind doesn't pick up. however you explain it, it is our inbuilt, instinctual early warning system.

it's important to note that this "honest reasonable belief" is the reason to pre-empt not an excuse to preempt. We can't go around punching out everyone claiming it to be preemptive in self defence. You must honestly believe it is a necessary action and legally (in most places) it must be considered to be a reasonable assumption that violence will occur to the defender (preemptive striker etc), given the situation and the likely belief of the defender.

Reasonable is usually defined as "what a member of the community of sound mind would consider to be reasonable given the situation, (location, actions of the other party etc) and likely state of mind of the defender"

When it comes down to it, No-one can tell anyone else to preemptively act, hell no-one can tell you to defend yourself it is a decision that you must make for yourself. I do recommend however that you decide what you are willing to do prior to any situation occurring. In the heat of the moment is not the time to be thinking "am i willing to preempt or not". In the heat of the moment is not the time to think about anything except for the situation.

Predetermine your Lines, Ie where do you draw the line for your own actions and define the line they must cross, what are you are willing to put up with before physical retaliation. Having a pre determined set of lines Or guides will enable you to focus on the task at hand ie making sure you eat dinner at home tonight with a knife and fork.

Be honest with your own abilities when drawing these lines. it's no good saying that I'll wait for this if your abilities can't handle the steps or level before it.


It may not be what many of us consider the ideal, but Midnightcrawler has drawn a line, at least he doesn't have to think about whether to preempt or not, he can concentrate purely not getting hit.



Hope that helps.
_________________________
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#308137 - 02/08/07 09:06 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: drgndrew]
VVIII Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 6
Loc: Australia
Fellow Aussie! Tell them loudly (for potentail witness) that you feel physically threatened and to not come any closer and that if they come any closer (than, say your outstretched hand)((and if theres no other way out)) ITS ON (just get in first, hard), the police find this logic reasonable i've found.

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#308138 - 02/08/07 09:19 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: MattJ]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Matt:

Philosophically, I am ardently opposed to physical violence, ever. I contend (rightly/wrongly) if things get to that level, all kinds of things we should have done (to prevent that) we failed in our training (ie more work required)...

Now, assessments being made, if I believed I had no further options, no alternative choices, and was in serious, imminant phyical danger life/limb. I would not be happy about it, but yes I would strike first. The worst danger is not the physical, but the head space (or its lack) of the assailant...

If I cannot alter their path, their "attack mode" we are merely a heavy bag waiting to be hit, and failing to remove ourselves from that untenible position... change my physical location, my angles, make them alter physically and hopefully dissuade their intention.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

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#308139 - 02/12/07 02:30 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Saisho]
sunchips Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 15
Quote:

"There is no first attack in Karate"



for me, the preemptive word is not the right word to use, cause by my definition (the first form of attack - includes forms of hostility- not always physical) I never strike preemptively. But for instance, if a guy has a gun on him, his having a gun and showing a tendency to violence towards me, to me is as good as him striking first. I prefer to channel the attackers energy to take him down, as you attack you expose minor openings, use that enemy's first strike to open him and take him down in as few hits as possible.

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#308140 - 05/19/07 05:20 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: sunchips]
Jim_M Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/13/07
Posts: 7
I said yes to both. If a threat is imminent, striking first could be the difference between living or dying. However, you do to make sure that the preemptive strike is absolutely justified or you could find yourself in legal trouble.

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#308141 - 05/25/07 02:43 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Jim_M]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
"Running away is in no way an implication of guilt, as long as you inform the police of the incident as soon as you are safe".

Leo,

As far as I'm concerned the later part of the sentance is the telling one. Viz, "as long as you inform the police of the incident as soon as you are safe". Therefore, to not inform the police after your departure would indicate a large proponderance towards guilt.

MC.
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#308142 - 06/16/07 09:01 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
SATAN Offline
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Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Southern Hemisphere
If you perceive a threat and the opponent has the ability and actions that inform your senses that the threat iof harm is going to happen then you have rights to self defense under the law. so pre-emptive strikes are allowed as long as you use the minimum amount of force needed to eliminate the threat.

if they are bigger than you then you can go a lot harder, if they have a weapon, if they say they have a weapon, if the threat is death etc.

you just have to stop before you become the bad guy/girl. as soon as they are unable to continue you need to stop.

sounds dumb, but if you know the laws related to attacks/defense/assualt etc it becomes easier to know when to fight and when to wait.
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#308143 - 06/16/07 09:11 PM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: Midnightcrawler]
SATAN Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Southern Hemisphere
Quote:

So, persons (A) & (D)are having an argument, person (A) is becoming very heated in defence of their viewpoint, swearing a lot, insulting person (D's) family etc. I'm sure you know the situation. Person (D) becomes concerned for their safety, but person (A) has given few physical indications of violence other than waving their hands around a lot like a windmill. (Cut off some peoples arms and they can't talk, I'm sure you know what I mean). Now, how can you restrain person (A) if they haven't given you a physical opportunity to do so? IE, they haven't gone to punch you or to kick you.
MC.



it all comes down to "Perceived Threat", and then you have to convince the jury later. without any verbal or physical threatening behaviour towards you it would be hard to justify it. we all have different levels of self confidence and someone with little confidence may feel threatened earlier than others, but man A is still the same in action. the key comes from A actually saying something or doing something that would be viewed as a precursor to attack. insults are not enough. its a tricky road, but just remember not to let them get close and you should be ok.

be very careful about 'restraining' people as they have had to have broken a law for them to be held. because rights allow us all the freedom not to be held unless a law has been broken. if they have broken no law, yet you think they have and restrain him, you are in a lot of trouble. if he threatens you with harm, and you manage to subdue him, you need to phone the police fast as you can only hold someone with the intent to hand them over to the police. and they must have a clear airway. pain isnt so much a factor as their breathing. if they are screaming, then they are fine. tell them you are holding them till police get there.

and ALWAYS be the calm one when the police turn up. you are more credible.
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#433772 - 09/07/11 02:38 AM Re: POLL - Pre-emptive strikes? [Re: mark]
corky Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 9
Absolutely. If in a potentially harmful situation..i would with no hesitation strike and flee.

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