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#307794 - 12/13/06 05:44 PM Gankaku/Chinto
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hi guys and girls,

I know it is an unpopular subject here but I'm gonna talk applications again

I was just wondering what, if any, applications people have for this Gankaku kata and its older brother chinto. The opening spin of the Shotokan kata especially confuses me.
I had thought that the crane stances might be applied hoping to the side of an attack.
As I said, generally confused! Whatever apps, theories and methods you may have feel free to flood the floor with them!

Cheers!
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#307795 - 12/14/06 08:31 AM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I was told of the old saying 'chinto knee', ie if you torque the knee on the spin it can injure.

Personally we work the chinto kata opening spin differently, 2 foot movement and lifting placing each foot, its structurally stronger and definatly safer for training.

The chinto signture position is definatly based around stepping off line, body chage - I use it for cover up against kick attack, ebb and flow principle for dropping power counters.

This is just my starting point.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#307796 - 12/14/06 08:32 AM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: Shonuff]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Shonuff

Not sure which spin move you're refering to.

For the crane stances, try a different perspective. Try using them for floor work. Use the leg positioning as a strangle and the hand positioning as a simultaneous arm bar.

Anyone from one of the east coast get togethers may have an opinion on effectiveness.
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John L

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#307797 - 12/14/06 01:15 PM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: JohnL]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Hey big man how are you? John, when I was tought the Korean version of Chinto, yes Korean, the first move/spin was turning crescent kick. The clip of this fellow doing the kata is the closest I could find. Is your Japanses Kata similar? Maybe next time we all get together we could work just on kata longer?

http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#307798 - 12/15/06 11:43 AM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hi Shoshinkan

Thanks for getting the ball rolling! Is this version of Chinto similar to the one you practice?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4ssmcOmSoM

Unfortunately I'm not sure what you mean by "torque the knee" or "ebb and flow principle" could you elaborate at all?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#307799 - 12/15/06 12:24 PM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: JohnL]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hi John

Fascinating idea that ground choke. I have to admit I know very little when it comes to ground work so it is difficult to envision applications on those lines, but next time I train with my MMA buddies I will definately try that one out.

Do you consider the whole kata to be ground work based or is that a stand alone app?

The spin I mentioned occurs immediately after the first two punches/ hammer-fist punch combo at the begining of gankaku. Most Chinto's I've looked at spin to face where they are going but Gankaku spins and faces the rear.

I had thought it might be used as a front kick/knee going forward (similar to Schannes idea) and then a hip toss to the rear against the original opponent. Also it just came to me that if going up a slope/stairway it could be used to step up and enter enter and pull the opponent down the stairs.

In truth I'm not too convinced by either app and I'm at a loss to say how the kata as a whole might fit these in and teach an overall combat lesson. Which I'm convinced they all do.

Many thanks for the contributions, more ideas are always welcome, keep em coming!
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#307800 - 12/15/06 12:27 PM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
no problem, chinto is a brilliant classical kata and one im working hard on, as I am all the others!

The versions that have been posted are not disimilair, our version is heavily based on the Seito Matsumura one, but we keep kata very personal so each of my instructors works it just slightly different. It must be good for the body and effective for self defense!

ok, torque the knee, is twisting your knee badly so it hurts and screws you up as you get older, not very scientific explanation but clear I hope.

ebb and flow, when we step back, and body change in chinto (ie to the one legged posture) we are ebbing, then we flow forward as in the kata with some dropping power, flowing, hope that makes some kind of sense!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#307801 - 12/17/06 11:32 AM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Thanks for the clarification Shoshinkan,

Anyone else have any ideas or theories on Gankaku/Chinto??? Individual movement apps are equally welcome...
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#307802 - 12/20/06 12:20 PM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

For the crane position, if you can visualise a straight or hook punch attack, enter/deflect on the inside of the attack covering and moving forward with mawashi-uke (crossed arms half-way movement) followed by downwards tetsui-uchi strike behind the base of the skull whilst trapping the attacking arm with your other raised arm, followed by a knee strike to the head. This should have you in the crane position, with knee raised and arms in manji-uke position. The pull to the hips with boths hands could be seen as a neck crank following on from the strike to the back of the head and knee strike. Sorry if this is hard to picture as bunkai descriptions can be tough but I find this application flows well for me.

I have also seen JohnL's grappling application on the net somewhere and it looked effective.

B.

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#307803 - 12/20/06 01:10 PM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hey Barad, thanks for the app, I think I can picture what you mean and I'm shocked and horrified that I sisnt come up with that one myself.

There is one movement left that I simply don't have a clue about, the rest I have at least reference points for, many thanks to those on this forum who helped.

Immediately before the first crane stance, immediately after the second elbow movement (I am talking Gankaku here), the Karateka pivots 180 and stands feet crossed and the hands move into a low x-block then up into a double middle block posture.
If anyone has any ideas about this (and any other movements) I would be most grateful for your insights. In relation to the stated technique I would be especially interested in apps which link the sequence together.

Incidentally my study leads me to conclude that the bulk of this kata is grappling based (of the stand up jujutsu kind. Could be wrong but the shoe seems to fit.

Thanks again guys.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#307804 - 12/21/06 08:59 AM Re: Gankaku/Chinto [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

Personally I am less confident of the applications for the movement you describe however I would not look at the wedge block in crossed leg stance as separate in application from the elbow movements in natural stance with fists on hips, as one flows into the other.

If you consider the attack as a grab to clothes at middle level, the right elbow strikes the grabbing hand/forearm to produce resistance to your right (i.e against the force of your right striking elbow) and the left elbow then strikes the attacking wrist/forearm to the other side to push it the way it was going when resisting your right elbow. In other words, your first elbow is a setup, allowing your second elbow to break the grip more easily. You follow this with a grab of the attacking wrist or wrist and elbow and a turn into koto gaeshi (wrist only) or a lock on the wrist and elbow, represented by the turn on the spot into wedge block. From here you might even go into the gripping/striking in crane stance with a knee to the face of the person whose wrist you are locking, who has dropped lower.

To make this work in the first place against a resisting attacker, I suspect you need a distraction to the face or groin before the elbow techniques. As we practice, a distraction is implicit/necessary before any locking techniques.

In the old days in the UK, Japanese teachers used to demonstrate the elbows/fists on hips as defence against straight body punches, too stupid for words IMHO.

B.

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