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#307194 - 12/12/06 04:26 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: BrianS]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Gen choi didn't know everything and he certainly didn't invent kata or it's concepts.





Thats right! he was human & I never met any human that was or is perfect.

Has anyone met a perfect human?

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (12/12/06 05:19 PM)

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#307195 - 12/12/06 04:33 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: tkd_high_green]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Harlan,
The Traditional Martial Arts pyramid scheme, at least as I understood it meant that most of the money raised from testings or class tuition, went not to the instructor or school, but to the instructors instructor and right up the chain to the top.
Back in the day, a portion of my instructors testing fee would have made it all the way back up to General Choi. To get certified for a certain rank, you couldn't just go right to the top, you had to go through all of the middle-men instructors in between.
If some Korean instructor, further up on the hierarchy was willing enough to even come and teach at your school, you weren't allowed to talk directly to him. Questions had to go through your instructor.Laura





This is a shame! If these things happen & I am sure they do, they go against the whole principle of Taekwon-Do & what a master or senior instructor is suppossed to stand for.

As far as a % of testing fees going to the organization, that is a common & accepted practice, as that is the way the organization raises funds. However, this should only apply to BB cert fees. This also has been a area of abuse.

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#307196 - 12/12/06 04:38 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: harlan]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think in some cases one may find a school selective about who they train. I find nothing wrong with that. In fact, it seems like it is the exact opposite of a McDoJang/McDojo. My instinct tells me that is a good thng.

I have no problem with a school being closed or more selective in who they wish to train, as long as it is not a racists practice, but one geared to insure serious student only need apply.

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#307197 - 12/12/06 07:15 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: JKogas]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
Quote:

Quote:

Well, then im sure there is to some degree. I dont teach every student I could. Im not sure that it has to do with elitism so much though. Im a firm believer in following my instincts. Sometimes you just get a feeling about someone. I think an instuctor has an obligation to monitor the ones he trains. Lord knows, Id hate to teach a rapist how to grapple effectively or a wife beater how to box. See what I mean?





Chen Zen, I am that way myself. I'm very particular as to whom I allow into the gym to train. There ARE a LOT of idiots out there. Many of whom would love nothing more than to assuage their egos with an understanding of how to "kick ass".



-John




In this world you must take the good with the bad. The truth is, criminals are going to hurt people whether you teach them to or not. What they don't learn in a dojo, they'll learn it on the streets. They are going to be brutally effective irregardless, that is why cities have police officers. Teaching good students does not make one a good teacher, anybody can teach a good student - that is the easy part. The true challenge of being a teacher is teaching the bad students - that's when you find out what you are worth as a teacher. The good ones are easy, it's the bad ones that truly test you. Let's take our criminal. He signs up for your class because he wants to learn how to waste people more efficiently. You have a bad feeling about the guy, but you decide to give the guy a chance because after all, everybody deserves a chance. Let's say the guy goes out and commits a crime. That sucks, but he was going to eventually do that anyway and if he didn't recieve training from you, he would've recieved something far deadlier from a thug on the streets. Now let's say that the criminal takes to the training over time. He grows to love you as a teacher and he forms a soft spot for his fellow students. He thinks twice about going out and committing that crime because he has found something truly special, something truly worth living for on a deeper level - and you, the teacher, are the one who has brought it to him. You have probably saved his life and countless other lives by simply giving someone a chance and not weeding them out due to profiling or preconceptions. I guess what I'm saying is you should give everybody a chance because what you are teaching can have a profound effect on anybody in this society. You never know, you could be that one hero or role model that makes just enough positive change in a criminal's life that they decide to get it together. You'd be surprised how people respond when they truly care about something or someone. Sports like football and basketball have had similar effects on literally thousands of ne'er do wells, imagine what something like traditional martial arts would do for them. Of course, he could get impatient and just drop out, but at least you gave him a chance to do something positive with his life rather than just flat out denying him and giving him yet another reason to be angry at society. Nobody was born a criminal, most people become criminals because they were mislead by someone or they are desperate. You could be that other someone who makes them realize the error of their ways. Yes, teachers have a good track record when it comes to these things. You must take the good with the bad, that is life. If you are not willing to deal with the entire package then you don't belong in the mail room. Everybody wants the glory and the easy, but nobody wants to deal with the ugly and the hard. As always, it is your choice and do what you think is best. Just offering my two cents and some food for thought.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

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#307198 - 12/12/06 09:13 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Katana83]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Katana,

Though what you write is a noble challenge to the office of teacher, in this case I don't buy this for one moment.

Martial arts instruction, to me, is like learning music or learning to paint well, and if the pupil has no temperance for that instruction he neither needs to be there nor is it incumbant upon the instructor to unduly "force" instruction where it is not wanted---let alone, not consider the other students' quality time that another student's misbehavior may appropriate.

Remember, this is not mandatory remedial instruction in how to behave. The student has come to the class for his learning, and in so doing, offers himself up for evaluation to that instruction. There is no requirement for that instruction to go to him, and if he screws up, make him learn.

-B

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#307199 - 12/12/06 10:49 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: butterfly]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
Quote:

Katana,

Though what you write is a noble challenge to the office of teacher, in this case I don't buy this for one moment.

Martial arts instruction, to me, is like learning music or learning to paint well, and if the pupil has no temperance for that instruction he neither needs to be there nor is it incumbant upon the instructor to unduly "force" instruction where it is not wanted---let alone, not consider the other students' quality time that another student's misbehavior may appropriate.

Remember, this is not mandatory remedial instruction in how to behave. The student has come to the class for his learning, and in so doing, offers himself up for evaluation to that instruction. There is no requirement for that instruction to go to him, and if he screws up, make him learn.

-B




I was merely stating that if a student shows up to learn an art that he or she shouldn't be turned away just because you think that they might be bad person and you probably don't know them well enough to slap that judgment on them. I was trying to say that you should give everybody a chance because first impressions can often be wrong. Although, after rereading my post, it looks like I got a bit carried away, so I am sorry about that. It seems that turning people away because they are percieved as a threat is a slippery slope. What would constitute a "threat"? A certain skin color, facial expression, body type, religion, country of origin? It smacks of bigotry, or at least a subtle form of it. It seems like one of those things that will be turned into something that is totally wrong and unfair, the "isms" come to mind here. Profiling would come into play, and the other negatives will follow it. Not to say that it doesn't happen now, but it seems like it would become a much bigger problem in the martial arts community as a whole. I wasn't trying to say that the teacher must, against all will, get through to this guy or any other student. I am just saying to have some patience and give others a chance. Don't be too impatient, because positives will eventually come. We all learn and mature at different rates. If they blow it then that is that, move on to the other students, you gave them a chance and they failed to capitalize. no harm no foul. I don't look at it as just a music class or after school program or anything like that, I look at it as something deeper than that. I guess I don't have the consumerist mentality. However, I see where you are coming from and I apologize if I went overboard.
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

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#307200 - 12/13/06 10:30 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Katana83]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Katana83,

In principle, I agree with what you were saying or trying to say in your first post. A person/instructor never knows how effective their efforts will be to help someone grow and mature as a person.

I also agree that an instructor should feel responsible for the martial instruction they are imparting in order to try and insure their art is not abused.

Kel
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#307201 - 12/15/06 12:34 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: hunterkell]
Katana83 Offline
Foreign Exchange Pimp

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 71
Yes, I see. Give them a chance, but be responsible about what you teach to whoever you are teaching it to. Everybody is given a fair chance, and devastating knowledge does not fall into the hands of those who will use it to willingly do harm to others. It is a much better approach than the one I suggested and it satisfies all those involved for the most part. We can never be totally sure, but this isn't an exact science to begin with. I think that your suggestion nips that one in the bud. Forgive me for deviating. Now the original issue at hand, elitism in martial arts. What do you think about black belt clubs? I have trained in a school that had a black belt club and the black belt club was invited to special promotional events and seminars that were not available to the other students. They were also given the choice to learn traditional weapons. I believe that this is an example of elitism in martial arts. What say you, buddy?
_________________________
Train hard and the answers will reveal themselves in a way that you can truly understand.

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#307202 - 12/15/06 08:22 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Five pages into the discussion though a definition might help.


e·lit·ism [i-lee-tiz-uhm, ey-lee-]
–noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.
[Origin: 1950–55; elite + -ism]

—Related forms
e·lit·ist, noun, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (?-l?'t?z'?m, ?-l?'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

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#307203 - 12/15/06 08:27 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Oooohh...'entitlement'. That's a dirty word in the American vocabulary.

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