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#307184 - 12/12/06 12:12 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Pertinent (sp?) crosspost from MikeC:

When I teach it is from the top down using a model more or less based on pre 1930's Okinawa model/ Japanese Koryu instruction. The student who has been with me the longest deserves more of my attention than the beginner who has just walked into the building. Also if you believe training is a test of character because what we teach is a dangerous practice in the wrong hands, than you will have few students and often they will be the better athletically and mentally. You will find a few with dogged determination with lesser abilities will stay around, but they than will also deserve to get the best of training depending on how much they can do and absorb. Training is not only about passing on a skill; it is a test of character. When a beginner walks in the doorway, you are limited to knowing what their character is. As one instructor said to me, “Karate is for everyone but not everyone is for Karate.”

I also have usually found that Natural Ability does not make a good student. They become bored easily. So unless, you stroke their egos, they often quit. Good training is not about stroking students/beginners egos.


http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15905911

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#307185 - 12/12/06 01:59 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
what about the notion of 'prerequisites' ? is that elitist? we are expected to pass '101' courses so we are eligible to join the elective courses.

I don't think there is anything elitist or wrong with saying: 'the prerequsits of the material I teach is that the student must first have the basics down and at least know the movements/sequence to x,y,z kata'.

I suspect University professors often don't decide to teach grade school level, not because they are elitists...but perhaps they are fullfilled where there interests are.

...and students aren't taking the class because they are elitists, but because they can.

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#307186 - 12/12/06 02:14 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Is it elitist for a teacher to say 'It makes me happy to offer what I know, to work with students, that have XXX level of understanding.' Seems acceptable to me. Kinda a waste of resources elsewise.

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#307187 - 12/12/06 02:36 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: harlan]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Hi,

I have been gone for awhile so I might as well be a newbie again...

When I was a young man back in the 80's I was studying Wado Ryu. Another student and myself went to a Tae Kwon Do school and asked to watch or even train with the students that were equivalent with our grade. The instructor (who was korean) was polite, but refused....would this be considered elitist?

The reason I ask is that he said that if we were not associated with a martial art we could stay and watch or even participate in a class, but as we were with a school we could not even stay to watch a class.
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#307188 - 12/12/06 02:49 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
makes sense to me...yet some on this thread would like people to believe that if a school/teacher is selective or has prerequisites, then they must be 'snobby' or 'elite'.

with a BSCS, why would I be interested in a computer course at the local library open to the public?

since I was already a parent thru my son's terrible 2's and 3's...why would I ever want to go thru that again by participating in a MA school that teaches babies and changes diapers?

thats not elitism...thats just the desire to keep things separate from training. I have no idea how childcare sensei do it. my hats off to 'em....but it's not for me.

training time changes the student. if the mcdojo people out there are still training in 4 years...they'll be looking for deeper and more meaningful training if they aren't too wrapped up in the pursuit of dan rank or getting themselves setup with their own dojo franchise.

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#307189 - 12/12/06 03:09 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: hunterkell]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I have had the same "you can't watch us" experiences. One was with a TKD class at a local recreation center that my wife and daughter would go to swim. I was there early to drop my daughter off and thought I would watch the class to see how it compared to my Okinawan karate. As the class was getting ready to begin, the instructor came to the back of the gym where I was sitting. He said hello and asked what I was there for. When I told him I was just going to watch, he told me I was not allowed to be in the gym and I would have to watch through the windows. Then he began to reach towards my arm/shoulder as if to escort me to the door. I remember looking at his hand, but I don't know what my expression looked like. It must have been interesting because he quickly withdrew his hand. That would have been an educational experience for one of us.

The second involved an instructor of the same style, but different lineage. I asked if I could visit and work out with his class and he told me they don't allow people from other organizations to come train. I don't know if it was eliteism or the fear of seeing someone who hasn't been separated from legitimate instruction for over a decade.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#307190 - 12/12/06 03:27 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Saisho]
hunterkell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 435
Loc: fl usa
Saisho,

were these incidents fairly recent? I ask because in this day and age of MMA's and crosstraining I thought my past experience would have become pretty much a thing of the past.

Kel
_________________________
Remembering 3655K

Nothing is impossible for the person that doesn't have to do it.

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#307191 - 12/12/06 03:28 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Saisho]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I have not had the experience of being told I can't watch a class, but I have been informed I am welcome to take classes at several of the area schools any time I wanted.

Does that make me elite?

Laura

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#307192 - 12/12/06 03:29 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Saisho]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I haven't been anywhere else, really, but with us it's more a case of 'No you can't watch...take a bo and practice with us. No bystanders.'

Quote:

I have had the same "you can't watch us" experiences.



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#307193 - 12/12/06 03:45 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: hunterkell]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

were these incidents fairly recent?




These were both within the past two years.

Harlan, I agree that I would rather have people visiting my class actually take part. The TKD almost "invited" me to take part in his class by putting his hand on me
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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