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#307174 - 12/11/06 01:22 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: harlan]
tkd_high_green Offline

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Thats why I put 'Traditional' in quotes.


#307175 - 12/11/06 01:34 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: tkd_high_green]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

If some Korean instructor, further up on the hierarchy was willing enough to even come and teach at your school, you weren't allowed to talk directly to him. Questions had to go through your instructor.

Sounds like the military where you must use the chain of command. Usually, it is misunderstood by the time his highness gets to it and you never get a straight answer. If I were ever too good to talk to lower ranks I'd just quit and build a statue of myself. What a load.


You put up with it though, because it was the organization/hierarchy that gave you status and legitimacy.

I wouldn't at all. What status do you have outside of your own organization? ZERO
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#307176 - 12/11/06 06:32 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I think elitism, as applied here, is a bit of a misnomer, perhaps too, McDojism. However, elitism may be examined by those on the outside who have little to gain and much to lose in comparison. And I don't mean this with the bad connotation of a small group “in the know,” though it may be perceived this way. In this situation, I would describe it as selectivity vs. commercialism. So the consequences of being highly selective may be that you risk alienating many people and the losses would be financial gain. The benefits, however, for those that you do choose will be a highly personalized and supervised educational experience. Even if the education offered is equal in a mass market dojo or a small class setting, in semi-formal to more-or-less private instruction this still offers the better teacher-to-student ratio and thus can be a more fulfilling experience on both sides of the instruction equation. The benefit to the teacher is actively spending more time with what he perceives as the student’s requirements for progress and vicariously enjoying that student’s expanding abilities and technical achievements. However, the risks are still that you will not be in the money making game and will provide instruction at your leisure without hope of large recompense.

I think a better term would be "picky" about selection. If education in any particular discipline is being discussed, what is being shown is the avenue to that education. A comparison would be public education which is free and mandatory to all at a certain age. However, if the student really wishes to aspire to greater heights and seek out instruction elsewhere in a more personal and challenging environment, he has to find the school that he wishes and he has to audition for that instruction. Nothing is guaranteed. Whether the requirements are perceived interest, personality, grades or Sat scores...or in the case of very good art schools, then it is based on your interview, portfolio, your audition, whatever. Not to say nepotisim or some other "inside" criteria isn't there. But, for example, if you wanted to learn from great music instructors, not everybody is going to be allowed into Julliard.

In this case, the onus is on the student as much as the instructor(s) and not everyone will be or should be allowed through the door.

#307177 - 12/11/06 09:10 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina

Well, then im sure there is to some degree. I dont teach every student I could. Im not sure that it has to do with elitism so much though. Im a firm believer in following my instincts. Sometimes you just get a feeling about someone. I think an instuctor has an obligation to monitor the ones he trains. Lord knows, Id hate to teach a rapist how to grapple effectively or a wife beater how to box. See what I mean?

Chen Zen, I am that way myself. I'm very particular as to whom I allow into the gym to train. There ARE a LOT of idiots out there. Many of whom would love nothing more than to assuage their egos with an understanding of how to "kick ass".


#307178 - 12/12/06 07:36 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: JKogas]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

how to "kick ass"

Well, I guess I am elitist; I wouldn't kick just any ass; some asses are just not worth kicking, IMHO .
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

#307179 - 12/12/06 07:37 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: JKogas]
Mark Hill Offline

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
The again John, do they really last long?

I've seen some people "grow" into better people due to consistent applications of "ego management sessions".
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

#307180 - 12/12/06 11:41 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: Mark Hill]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
In many occupations I know there are many tests and interviews to secure a position. I go with John and Chen's statements...not for the sake of lifting up some few in a meritocracy. But look at it this way: Do you really want any knucklehead at all to enter a police academy and not go through the psche evaluations and interviews?

Heaven help us, we have enough goombahs so that we don't need law enforcement people with anger management issues...or who will freeze up when trying to help their partners.

If you take what you do seriously, the responsibility for that instruction is yours as well...that's why Come Hither Anyone Who Can Pay just doesn't cut it. And that is also one of the reasons some few here dislike the McDojo mentality--- Dojo Dollars, wearing a Dojo quilt with enough patches (for a premium price) that it would make a Nascar racer blush. At some point, money can trump your instruction...and that's when the focus of instruction leads down wrong path.

#307181 - 12/12/06 11:57 AM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: butterfly]
tkd_high_green Offline

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Pah, even the most decent of people can turn into a monster.

We hear about it all the time. Honest, church going, no criminal record person turns around and kills everyone in their family.

Sure you can do a security check before you allow them to join, but other than that, it takes time to determine if someone is a good egg or not.

Often times, the discipline and environment can be a good thing for someone with a slightly tarnished record, especially teens that start getting themselves into trouble.


#307182 - 12/12/06 12:02 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: tkd_high_green]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Elitism doesn't always take into account ethics. Plenty of 'masters' in various arts that are just as notorious for their personal behaviour (drinking, foul language/temper, abuse of students, womanizing, etc.).

#307183 - 12/12/06 12:07 PM Re: 'Elitism' in MA [Re: tkd_high_green]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
So wait, you are saying, despite the more insidious, hard to find sociopathic members of our society, we shouldn't net the more obvious goofs?

I am not saying bad apples don't exist or that you may not be able to spot them until later. What I am saying is that if you put a gill net out for some of the other more "noticeable" get rid of some of the problems from the get go.

That's the whole point of drug testing etc...not that some can bypass it, but that you catch those that don't. Period.

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