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#306929 - 12/10/06 07:18 AM Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;)
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I have to do an elective kata at my next grading. As I have to do Gojushiho Sho, I may as well do the minor version as well.

Any thoughts to the actual differences in application or a general differences in philosophy?

Dai (Sho) seems to use more joint manipulation and sinking of bodyweight whereas Sho (Dai) seems to use more upsetting of the opponents balance and more direct attacks.

In Your (Humble) Opinion?
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#306930 - 12/10/06 09:05 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Mark Hill]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

I have to do an elective kata at my next grading. As I have to do Gojushiho Sho, I may as well do the minor version as well.

Any thoughts to the actual differences in application or a general differences in philosophy?

Dai (Sho) seems to use more joint manipulation and sinking of bodyweight whereas Sho (Dai) seems to use more upsetting of the opponents balance and more direct attacks.

In Your (Humble) Opinion?




So "Sho" is major and "Dai" is minor in this case? The Seito versions of karate just do Gojushiho. The Gojushiho done in the orthodox system has groundfighting, throws, the principles of falling and rising power, in-close unbalancing, use of hand and leg combinations, parrying and side-stepping, chokes, forward pressure with rapid-fire strikes, trips, an elbow strike, vital point atemi waza. It has everything you could possibly need for a good all-range repertoire.

The catch is that even amongst Shorin Ryuha the movements, stances and techs are different in application and order. Which system do you practice? I'm guessing Kobayashi or an offshoot maybe Shotokan? If you are a Shotokan-ka then that might explain why the "minor" is the "major" and vice-versa.

When Chibana and Funakoshi learned Gojushiho from Shishu (Itosu Shinshi) the form was broken into a minor and major version in order to facilitate easier learning amongst the school kids they were instructing. The major version is probably closer to the original form ("Dai" which in your case is "Sho").

Hope I was some help. Good luck on your grading...


Edited by Unsu (12/10/06 09:11 PM)

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#306931 - 12/10/06 09:12 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Unsu]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Thanks, getting a gist of the classical version of the form helps as well. Thankfully, It seems like I am on the right track.

Yes, the Dai is the minor version and the Sho is the major version, we are a Shotokan offshoot.
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#306932 - 12/12/06 08:41 AM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Unsu]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Unsu,

I am curious-you suggest that Gojushiho kata was taught as two separate kata to make it easier to learn, so you are implying it was originally one long kata if I understand you correctly? Is the version you practice, which you think pre-dates Shotokan versions, the equivalent length of Gojushiho Dai and Sho put together and does it contain all of the techniques of the two Gojushiho kata as it should if it is one kata now taught as two?

The gentleman who originally taught me those kata used to say that they were one kata originally. However to me they look like variants of the same kata rather than two halves of one. There are so many identical movements, even repeated within each kata that to double these movements up by repeating them again in one long kata would not seem to make sense, as it would teach nothing new.

As I practice, Dai has as its penultimate movement a two handed single finger strike where Sho has a two handed ox-jaw strike.

B.

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#306933 - 12/12/06 07:34 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Barad]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Unsu,

I am curious-you suggest that Gojushiho kata was taught as two separate kata to make it easier to learn, so you are implying it was originally one long kata if I understand you correctly? Is the version you practice, which you think pre-dates Shotokan versions, the equivalent length of Gojushiho Dai and Sho put together and does it contain all of the techniques of the two Gojushiho kata as it should if it is one kata now taught as two?

The gentleman who originally taught me those kata used to say that they were one kata originally. However to me they look like variants of the same kata rather than two halves of one. There are so many identical movements, even repeated within each kata that to double these movements up by repeating them again in one long kata would not seem to make sense, as it would teach nothing new.

As I practice, Dai has as its penultimate movement a two handed single finger strike where Sho has a two handed ox-jaw strike.

B.




The Seito version is quite different from the other versions. This kata is quite long and the techs very different from the Kobayashi version.

I don't think it was two versions, but one an abridged version (Sho) of the original form. It is possible that Itosu learned a similar form, perhaps from Gusukuma who was really his main teacher early on. He may have felt that the longer (Matsumura) kata was a more advanced form so he designated them "Sho" and "Dai".

The reason I say he may have learned it from someone other than Mastumura is due to the fact that Matsubayashi and Matsumura Orthodox practice only one version whereas the Itosu influenced styles teach two. These versions are different than the Kyan, Chibana and Funakoshi forms.

In Shorinkan we learned two, the Sho then the Dai. The shorter "Sho" kata is a good introductory form to the "Dai" which resembles the Sho but much longer with some different waza.

Matsubayashi also does just one version which is similar but very different from ours at the same time. It is the final kata they learn. In the Seito version the finishing move is a low nukite/stiff arm followed with what can be interpreted as a neck lock (guillotine) or arm entanglement. There are many interpretations of this move.

Hope I helped.

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#306934 - 12/13/06 01:44 AM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Unsu]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Any more bunkai gems?
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#306935 - 12/13/06 04:20 AM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Mark Hill]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
You can't really learn bunkai from a website!

Barad

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#306936 - 12/13/06 04:26 AM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Unsu]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Unsu,

Interesting-thanks. I do not find Dai or Sho much different in terms of difficulty, only different in technique and their length, as we practice, is virtually identical.

The stiff arm/neck lock you you describe sounds like a section a little before the end of what we know as Gojushiho Dai, which ends in a 1 finger nukite supported arm kamae in neko-ashi (for want of a better description) but it is obviously hard to tell if we are talking about anything similar without seeing it.

B.

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#306937 - 12/13/06 04:45 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Mark Hill]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Have a look at Bill Burgers book, Five years one kata.
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#306938 - 12/13/06 08:58 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Unsu]
sepai Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 10
Loc: Ca, USA
Unsu,
Out of my whole 20 years of research I have never came across that Itosu ever made or had two gojushiho katas. He did have two in bassai and kusanku. The only other styles I know of that ever practise these two katas are the shotokan style and maybe some off shoot styles. Some people don't relize that the shotokan katas were all modified and some techniques changed. They did this for tournament purposes, to look appealing.All the shorin ryu styles I have ever heard about there is only one gojushiho kata. The JKA shotokan peolple created the other kata, in this case the sho, from the main one and gave them the names dai and sho just to differentiate from the two. Now you said that shorinkan has two? From what organization is that from? The only shorinkan I know of is the koboyashi shorin ryu shorinkan under Nakazato Sensei. They only practise one version of the gojushiho. Unless there has been an instructer that has added it to his school from the shotokan style, that does happen.I am not saying your wrong, Iam just telling you what I have learned from my experiences so far. Maybe you have info that I don't know, who knows, hehehehhe. I studied shotokan for 20 years and now study shito ryu for the past 10 years. Kenwa Mabuni learned all the katas from Itosu. There is only one gojushiho kata in shito ryu. Mabuni never deleted or changed anything to my knowledge. I hope this helps.

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#306939 - 12/20/06 09:24 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: sepai]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Unsu,
Out of my whole 20 years of research I have never came across that Itosu ever made or had two gojushiho katas. He did have two in bassai and kusanku. The only other styles I know of that ever practise these two katas are the shotokan style and maybe some off shoot styles. Some people don't relize that the shotokan katas were all modified and some techniques changed. They did this for tournament purposes, to look appealing.All the shorin ryu styles I have ever heard about there is only one gojushiho kata. The JKA shotokan peolple created the other kata, in this case the sho, from the main one and gave them the names dai and sho just to differentiate from the two. Now you said that shorinkan has two? From what organization is that from? The only shorinkan I know of is the koboyashi shorin ryu shorinkan under Nakazato Sensei. They only practise one version of the gojushiho. Unless there has been an instructer that has added it to his school from the shotokan style, that does happen.I am not saying your wrong, Iam just telling you what I have learned from my experiences so far. Maybe you have info that I don't know, who knows, hehehehhe. I studied shotokan for 20 years and now study shito ryu for the past 10 years. Kenwa Mabuni learned all the katas from Itosu. There is only one gojushiho kata in shito ryu. Mabuni never deleted or changed anything to my knowledge. I hope this helps.




It was Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-Do/ Nakazato Sensei. Not Yamashiota's org, Miyahira's or Shinjinbukan.

You're right. Shorinkan and the other Shuri Te influenced Ryuha only have one Gojushiho. I got it twisted with Passai/Patsai Dai and Sho.

The formulation of the Dai and Sho forms was probably a JKA thing. I was told the reasoning for this and the Itosu story by a BB who trained in Shorin Ryu with me but who use to be a BB in the JKA (Shotokan). He must have been talking out the back of his neck.

My bad. Concentrate on the Dai version, since it's probably closest to the original Shuri Te form. Later and Happy Holidays!!!

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#306940 - 12/28/06 02:21 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Unsu]
roninofGa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 57
just throwing in my two cents. I originally was taught sho and Dai versions of this kata. As we all know Itosu changed or "tweaked" almost all of his kata at sometime or another.
I always just assumed that it was he who took Useishi and split it up into Sho and Dai.I found it interesting that most fingers point to Shotokan for the addition of Dai (or Sho). Funakoshi in his book Tote Jutsu written in 1925 refers to just a single kata of Gojushiho. So with Shito-ryu and others only doing one and with that from Funakoshi, the second one came after 1925.

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#306941 - 12/31/06 03:18 AM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: roninofGa]
sepai Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 10
Loc: Ca, USA
Ronin,
The best I can explain this is that the JKA changed a lot of their kata's. They changed niseishi and then called it nijushiho. They did the same with unsu and sochin and others. The reason for this I can guess is that they (the Japanese) wanted it to be separated as far as they could from Okinawan karate because the Japanese looked down on them. So they changed around all the moves and names. They did this around the late 40's and early to mid 50's. Some of the kata's that were added were sochin by Gigo Funakoshi, Unsu, nijushiho, gojushiho, were added by Nakayama when Gichin Funakoshi sent him and sometimes Isao Obata to learn kata's from Kenwa Mabuni. They brought these kata back and changed them or shotokanized them. I think Funakoshi talks about this in his book called Nyumon. The rest of this information I got from Sensei Nishiyama. As well as interviews done with Nakayama Sensei, who stated this. However, those kata were never officailly a part of the shotokan style. They were just experimental kata or extra kata. Funakoshi mentions this in his book and states that students should just spend more time on the 15 kata that Funakoshi learned and brought to the system.This is why the SKA under Oshima Sensei only practise those 15. I hope this helps.

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