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#306939 - 12/20/06 09:24 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: sepai]
Unsu Offline

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas

Out of my whole 20 years of research I have never came across that Itosu ever made or had two gojushiho katas. He did have two in bassai and kusanku. The only other styles I know of that ever practise these two katas are the shotokan style and maybe some off shoot styles. Some people don't relize that the shotokan katas were all modified and some techniques changed. They did this for tournament purposes, to look appealing.All the shorin ryu styles I have ever heard about there is only one gojushiho kata. The JKA shotokan peolple created the other kata, in this case the sho, from the main one and gave them the names dai and sho just to differentiate from the two. Now you said that shorinkan has two? From what organization is that from? The only shorinkan I know of is the koboyashi shorin ryu shorinkan under Nakazato Sensei. They only practise one version of the gojushiho. Unless there has been an instructer that has added it to his school from the shotokan style, that does happen.I am not saying your wrong, Iam just telling you what I have learned from my experiences so far. Maybe you have info that I don't know, who knows, hehehehhe. I studied shotokan for 20 years and now study shito ryu for the past 10 years. Kenwa Mabuni learned all the katas from Itosu. There is only one gojushiho kata in shito ryu. Mabuni never deleted or changed anything to my knowledge. I hope this helps.

It was Shorin Ryu Shorinkan Okinawan Karate-Do/ Nakazato Sensei. Not Yamashiota's org, Miyahira's or Shinjinbukan.

You're right. Shorinkan and the other Shuri Te influenced Ryuha only have one Gojushiho. I got it twisted with Passai/Patsai Dai and Sho.

The formulation of the Dai and Sho forms was probably a JKA thing. I was told the reasoning for this and the Itosu story by a BB who trained in Shorin Ryu with me but who use to be a BB in the JKA (Shotokan). He must have been talking out the back of his neck.

My bad. Concentrate on the Dai version, since it's probably closest to the original Shuri Te form. Later and Happy Holidays!!!

#306940 - 12/28/06 02:21 PM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: Unsu]
roninofGa Offline

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 57
just throwing in my two cents. I originally was taught sho and Dai versions of this kata. As we all know Itosu changed or "tweaked" almost all of his kata at sometime or another.
I always just assumed that it was he who took Useishi and split it up into Sho and Dai.I found it interesting that most fingers point to Shotokan for the addition of Dai (or Sho). Funakoshi in his book Tote Jutsu written in 1925 refers to just a single kata of Gojushiho. So with Shito-ryu and others only doing one and with that from Funakoshi, the second one came after 1925.

#306941 - 12/31/06 03:18 AM Re: Gojushiho Dai (Sho) ;) [Re: roninofGa]
sepai Offline

Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 10
Loc: Ca, USA
The best I can explain this is that the JKA changed a lot of their kata's. They changed niseishi and then called it nijushiho. They did the same with unsu and sochin and others. The reason for this I can guess is that they (the Japanese) wanted it to be separated as far as they could from Okinawan karate because the Japanese looked down on them. So they changed around all the moves and names. They did this around the late 40's and early to mid 50's. Some of the kata's that were added were sochin by Gigo Funakoshi, Unsu, nijushiho, gojushiho, were added by Nakayama when Gichin Funakoshi sent him and sometimes Isao Obata to learn kata's from Kenwa Mabuni. They brought these kata back and changed them or shotokanized them. I think Funakoshi talks about this in his book called Nyumon. The rest of this information I got from Sensei Nishiyama. As well as interviews done with Nakayama Sensei, who stated this. However, those kata were never officailly a part of the shotokan style. They were just experimental kata or extra kata. Funakoshi mentions this in his book and states that students should just spend more time on the 15 kata that Funakoshi learned and brought to the system.This is why the SKA under Oshima Sensei only practise those 15. I hope this helps.

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