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It does seem that the scenario is sports based, not street based.

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Headlocks are a common thing on the street, but be honest they don't happen like on the mat. the objective of the street head lock is usually to hold the head so that the free hand can repeatedly punch to the face. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but how many technically perfect BJJ style headlock controls have you seen or heard of in the street. Even on the Door they would be rare.

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for the record I have never seen it done and even if it was done it would be as an immobilisation. if you are being immobilised and not damaged then chances are it isn't a SD situation.

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My question is How did you get to this position in the first place.

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"You don't defend against a punch when it makes contact, defend against it before it makes contact."

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This is the problem with Technique based scenarios, it does not take into account the almost endless variables. What's the floor like, how many people are around, multiples? weapons? location? etc etc etc

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how so

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It happens bro. Lots of former wrestlers and football players here. And the headlocks don’t HAVE to be “perfect”, they just have to exist, and exist they do.

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The point is not whether *YOU* see them or not. The point was, how to escape when you can’t bite or eye gouge.

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ok I'm using the pictures you posted on page 6 as a reference.
this one particularly as the other is more posed ( no offense intended)


1. Biting it looks to me that the peck, upper arm, armpit ribs use your forhead to great space by butting to the hace etc I can't see how your argument that you cant bite is valid.

2. Grab the hair or ear with your free hand and pull like a 15 yr old, it should create space enough to sink your teeth in you may not be able to get to the eye in one move

3. Spit into his face to cause a flinch and opening

4. Grab a hunk of flesh and dig deep, twist, rip and tear. with either hand

5. Buck to upset is balance and position, if your able to get him to roll over you as well you may end up in a better position

6. give him the wedgie of all time (seriously if you can grab hold of his pants and pull like mad it will distract him.

7. If he's a wrestler or BJJ'er then just tap twice and he'll let you go


The thing is none of these things are guaranteed to work but they can provide opportunities to escape.

In summary cause a flinch response (and we all flinch, any one that say's other wise are disillusioned), greater an opening and attack a vital target.
Never give up.

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That isn’t the point. The point is (again), how to escape. You don’t escape by pretending a scenario never occurs.

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My question is How did you get to this position in the first place.

Your answer
Because $hit happens, whether you want it to or not. That really isn’t the point. And, if you think it can’t occur, it becomes evident real quickly that you have never trained with great wrestlers.

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But yeah, that’s GREAT in a perfect, nice and tidy world. The fact is, guys whom you could be fighting are often bigger and stronger and can use that size advantage in their favor to wrestle you down. Care to tell me that THAT doesn’t happen?

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You’re asking me why to train to defeat headlocks (or as Stormdragon insists it be called, the technical “head & arm hold” position, mainly because he’s never heard of it called a simple headlock before ). So I would turn this question around and ask you, “why do you train self-defense at all”?

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You’re simply avoiding the issue. The issue is, you’re in a headlock, how do you get out. Don’t let the answer be, “just don’t be there” or, “it never happens so why train it”, etc.

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I'm not avoiding the Issue, I'm just stating it from a different point of view. A point of view that you "don't get"

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The problem with that line of thinking is, you’re treating the issue by putting your head in the sand. If “just don’t be there” worked, there would be no need to train martial art to begin with.

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Its just a simple question and you either have an answer or you don’t. You seem to have everything BUT an answer.

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Well both pics supplied are in a sporting situation….

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I’m sorry, I’ll get some pictures of us outside wearing leather jackets on lying on the asphalt next time. Just a joke there. But that really doesn’t change anything.

But lets do have a reasonable, calm and intelligent debate here. You seem like a reasonable enough guy. Perhaps we can make some headway here that appears impossible to do when debating with Stormdragon.

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besides that there is no account for the realities of street, the variables etc the specific head lock you describe is a side head control, but because you can never say never I'll concede that it could happen, most likely from a fall from a standing headlock. Maybe I misunderstood your intention after all you do see boxers hooks being thrown. I guess I was focusing more on the fact that your (i'm) assuming it will be a technical correct sporting technique

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Be honest when Have you seen it happen in a real life self defense situation, either with your own eyes or on a clip. but like i said ok it's a possibility I just see it as a low probability

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ok I'm using the pictures you posted on page 6 as a reference.
this one particularly as the other is more posed ( no offense intended)


1. Biting it looks to me that the peck, upper arm, armpit ribs use your forhead to great space by butting to the hace etc I can't see how your argument that you cant bite is valid.

2. Grab the hair or ear with your free hand and pull like a 15 yr old, it should create space enough to sink your teeth in you may not be able to get to the eye in one move

3. Spit into his face to cause a flinch and opening

4. Grab a hunk of flesh and dig deep, twist, rip and tear. with either hand

5. Buck to upset is balance and position, if your able to get him to roll over you as well you may end up in a better position

6. give him the wedgie of all time (seriously if you can grab hold of his pants and pull like mad it will distract him.

7. If he's a wrestler or BJJ'er then just tap twice and he'll let you go

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The thing is none of these things are guaranteed to work but they can provide opportunities to escape.

In summary cause a flinch response (and we all flinch, any one that say's other wise are disillusioned), greater an opening and attack a vital target.
Never give up.

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I'm not saying it never occurs I'm saying it is rare

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There is always a lead up to a street fight, you don't just find yourself in a head lock control on the ground.

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I've identified 7 steps that are common to most attacks. without going onto detail, you must first be chosen, you are then cased and they position/set them selves up, an interview will usually come next, followed by threats and intimidation, then the act of violence occurs and finally their escape.

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It’s not to say that all assaults will follow all of these steps or even perform them in this order, there is ALWAYS the unknown factor to consider. In general, however, a predator will progress through these 7 stages to complete their act of violence. These steps are usually true to all kinds of violent crime and assault, including Common Assault such as a pub or street fight, muggings, rape and even child abuse.

An ambush attack would omit the interview and threat stage but the others will be present.

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I think it is very much "the point", to get in that position you have to be chosen, you have to be approached, you have to then be taken down, the lock has to then be applied. Sure "$hit happens", "even monkey's fall out of trees" (C/o D Turton, SDF, UK).

I'm not saying we shouldn't be training for these situations, what I'm saying is that there needs to be equal concentration of avoiding getting to that situation.

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I'm not just talking awareness and avoidance, I mean training to avoid being taken down training to notice the body mechanics of common attacks ( have you ever noticed how similar a haymakers body movements are to a headlock attempt) take notice of the energy not the technique, there are counters to every step along the way in the attack process. I take a holistic approach to self defense.

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I'm not avoiding the Issue, I'm just stating it from a different point of view. A point of view that you "don't get"

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Head in the sand? sorry dude you are not a good judge of character. I could say the same about you but that would be disrespectful.

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I seek knowledge where ever I can and by the best I can( I won't drop names), see your focus is on the head lock I'm more concerned about how to not get there, it doesn't mean I don't work on what to do if I do. To Quote a respected member of the forum "$hit Happens"

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I have provided some solutions above. But John could you please tell me what the "right" answer is.

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Solution to a headlock?

Tuck the near elbow and get it to the ground. Bridge your weight into your opponent and get him to either go face down (where you can take his back) or bridge and roll him over you when you feel him push back into you. Either way will have you now on TOP of him and in control of the position. No biting or eye gouging is used. In fact, if I reach with my hands to eye gouge, I’m leaving a better defensive posture. If I bite, that could work but may not if I have to bite through leather. Better just to have a good bridge & roll to begin with – a legitimate tactic that IS practicable against resisting partners and opponents.

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Explain the ambush point??

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I agree. But why train AT ALL if the answer is, “just never be there”? Do you do any empty hand training or do you just run track?

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I've never said "just never be there" obviously prevention is better then cure but Self Protection is about responsible freedom. don't take unnecessary risks, pre-plan, a safe way to get home, carry an extra $20 in your shoe for emergency taxi etc basically be proactive with your safety, carry a spare tyre if your traveling so to speak.

The things I've been referring to previously are pre-indecent indicators, establishing a Fence, de-escalation, positioning, mind engagement, preemptive action al those sort of pre-contact strategies. I integrate this stuff into the Physical Defence part of training. That doesn't mean I don't I do isolation training for a particular technique I just try to avoid the "if he does this you do this kind of teaching" I prefer concepts and principles, but I don't neglect if this happens you can do this or this or this.

Oh as far as me running track, I wouldn't won't to expose the public to that kind of thing

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If I’m caught by them in the gym, I know that is possible for OTHER people outside the gym to catch me in them as well

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No, I get it completely. It’s just not my cup of tea to have as my self-defense model ; “don’t be there or, when you are, use foul tactics” and to rely on them to avoid the need for a more legitimate game.

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Remember my main point here; that its critical to have in place a legitimate ability based on skill in the three core delivery systems as opposed to merely learning biting and eye gouging as my defensive tool. And yes, that means SPORT.

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