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#306312 - 12/11/06 12:13 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: drgndrew]
Leo_E_49 Professional Poster Registered: 02/24/05 Posts: 4115 Loc: California	Quote: were talking technique here not psychological differences And therein lies the rub. Sure you can't shoot someone to train to shoot someone but you can train martial arts against someone to learn how to defend yourself. And practical experience trumps make believe any day of the week. The psychological differences, such as how you deal with pain, aggression, fear, adrenaline, etc are what can make the difference between surviving and becoming a name on a stone in the ground. Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/11/06 12:15 PM) _________________________ Self Defense (Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)
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#306313 - 12/11/06 03:19 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: Leo_E_49]
Stormdragon Who Dares Wins Professional Poster Registered: 08/05/04 Posts: 3406 Loc: Salem, OR	Exactly how is a simulation so much more inferior to doing techniques for real all the time? At least in the case of 'dirty tactics.' And still, what about indoor climbing? And why does the army use video game like combat sims? _________________________ Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,
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#306314 - 12/11/06 04:49 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: Stormdragon]
Leo_E_49 Professional Poster Registered: 02/24/05 Posts: 4115 Loc: California	Apples and oranges. You're still climbing, whether you do it indoors or outdoors. Tactical training can be done by using theoretical means but I wouldn't trust a soldier with a rifle if they'd only used one in a simulation. You don't have to do all your MA training on the street but you can train it effectively against resistance in the Dojo. Believe me, if there were a way to realistically train eye gouges without disfiguring my training partners, I'd be training it right now. Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/11/06 04:52 PM) _________________________ Self Defense (Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)
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#306315 - 12/11/06 05:56 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: drgndrew]
JKogas Prolific Registered: 01/25/03 Posts: 10813 Loc: North Carolina	Quote: Semantics Dude, semantics. OK we get it.. You can't practice them, as in not "practicable". I say big deal, so what. You don't shoot people on a pistol range either, but the only difference between training and shooting someone physically is what the bullet passes through ( were talking technique here not psychological differences). There is a bit of difference between an eye jab and a bullet wouldn’t you say? Do I really need to know the effects that a bullet might have on a person versus what an eye jab might have? I’d say it’s pretty obvious what a bullet does and the effect it has. What is surprising is that bullets don’t often drop people. If THEY don’t, just imagine the possibility that a shot to the eye may not cause the reaction you’re seeking either. Quote: If so many of us are " so far off " of what you mean, maybe you could tells us in a different way. I’ve said it about as clear as I can. Re-read. Quote: Reality Based Self Defence (RBSD) This is not an Sport This is not an Art This is Survival. Those are nothing but words man. Big words, but words nonetheless. Quote: Many of your arguments are more suited to Martial Arts & Fighting not Self Defence. The fact is, John, reality IS different from training, sport and art. Not as much as you think Quote: There are a lot of behavioural tactics that come into play in the street. It's not a simple fight where you shape up to each other, thats not self defence. In this situation everything you say is spot on. Who said anything about “shaping up to each other”? Who said anything about sport? Did I mention that I train for sport anywhere on this thread??? What forum are YOU reading from man? Where have I mentioned anything about sports and rules and “shaping up to each other”? What I am talking about is TRAINING in ways that are NOT “pretend”. What is it about that, that you can’t get your mind around? Quote: But like I said, Semantics Dude, semantics I’m beginning to wonder. Stormdragon wrote: Quote: Exactly how is a simulation so much more inferior to doing techniques for real all the time? Jeezuz Pleezuz folks….no one is saying NOT to do any simulation in training. We do that as well. We simulate knee strikes, elbows, etc. There are just some things you cannot do. If you were going to train eye strikes and all of that garbage, what I’d suggest is to training from a DEFENSIVE point view and not as an offensive strategy so much. In other words, train it so you can DEFEND it. That would be much more helpful in my opinion. However, SPARRING is the core of your training. Remember also that sparring does not have to mean any one thing. Sparring can be designed however you want it to be designed. The key point being that you are trying to apply your skill and techniques against someone who is fighting you BACK. If you do not have that in your training, you’re FOOLING yourselves. That has to be there first and there ARE just some things which cannot be sparred. Thus if sparring is your core, and some things cannot be sparred, then what cannot be sparred must serve as supplementary training only. It should not in my opinion, be the sole focus of your training. Again if it is, you’re not developing yourselves as you could be. But don’t take MY word for this or anything. Train how the hell ever you want to, it’s no skin off MY ass at all folks. Please don’t think that I’m here losing any sleep if you guys never develop the first OUNCE of skill. I’m just providing a viewpoint that runs contrary to what a lot of the “self-defense geeks” believe. Seriously, do you HAVE to even ask why simulation is inferior to the real thing???? To answer that, I’ll ask you this; is simulated sex better than REAL sex? (then again, I'm betting you might not know what real sex is about yet) Is simulated ANYTHING better than reality? Hell, f*cking, NO! How could anyone 'in their right mind' think it COULD it be?! Quote: At least in the case of 'dirty tactics.' And still, what about indoor climbing? You’re STILL climbing though, aren’t you? You’re not pretending to climb bro. Put your brains back in and think about it. Quote: And why does the army use video game like combat sims? As weird as it may seem to you, the army doesn’t not always know best. Remember, they are a department of the GOVERNMENT. But again, re-read what I've written. The Army Rangers however get some things right, they're finally training Brazilian jiu-jitsu -- a quote-unquote, "sport" system. -John
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#306316 - 12/11/06 06:45 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Who Dares Wins Professional Poster Registered: 08/05/04 Posts: 3406 Loc: Salem, OR	Hey I think sparring/grappling/mma training live should be the core of your training as well. I dont think eye attackes and throat attacks should be the basis, just a piece of the puzzle, and I do think you need a delivery system in place, hence why I'm noticing a lot of RBSD people are a bit rough with their skills, however I stil lthink dirty tactics need to be trained to be fully developed. I also dont think they are the be all end all as Dedicated has been saying, they elicit a response that allows for follw ups, although eye gouges and throat strikes do sometimes end confrontations. Bullets may be far more dangerous but it's the same principle. Simulations have much value and give you a feel for certain tactics/techniques even if not fully trained 'live' simulations still help further develope your tool kit. And I agree with you that an important reason to train 'dirty tactics' is to know what to expect and how to defend against them but it isn't totally natural to use them effectively in a fight without having lot's of fight experience. These are still skills that must be trained for maximum effectiveness hence why people aren't natural fighters form birth. Also pure sport oriented training as BJJ and boxing is or had become tends to get you fully focused on those tactics when you may be able to use simpler tactics on the street. Like striking the throat, groin, and ears for instance. Edited by Stormdragon (12/11/06 06:48 PM) _________________________ Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,
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#306317 - 12/11/06 07:31 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Prolific Registered: 01/25/03 Posts: 10813 Loc: North Carolina	Stormdragon wrote Quote: Hey I think sparring/grappling/mma training live should be the core of your training as well. I dont think eye attackes and throat attacks should be the basis, just a piece of the puzzle, and I do think you need a delivery system in place, hence why I'm noticing a lot of RBSD people are a bit rough with their skills, however I stil lthink dirty tactics need to be trained to be fully developed. We finally agree on something. I am not against the training of foul tactics. Like I said, I believe it’s more important to train to defend them, but nevertheless, you’re not totally complete without training them. But you are about 95% complete without them. A tiny bit of supplementation once the general skill is developed is good every so often. I just feel that time is better spent honing those delivery systems. Timing is critical and that’s one thing that requires almost completely alive training to accomplish. Naturally aliveness doesn’t equal brutality, but it does require contact - REAL contact. Without that, you’re won’t develop the attributes you need to apply your skills (things like accuracy, distancing, timing, sensitivity, etc) Quote: I also dont think they are the be all end all as Dedicated has been saying, they elicit a response that allows for follw ups, although eye gouges and throat strikes do sometimes end confrontations. I’m sure that they might end some confrontations. But I’ve got quite a few stories illustrating times where they didn’t. The golf club swung full on against a mans throat. The man gets up, pulls a knife and chases the man (his own son) that did it to him The guy who took upwards of 30 shots to the groin by his opponent in a fight, only to not feel a thing until later at the police station where he then began throwing up. Medical tests revealed the mans testicles had ascended. My own training partner who took a finger into the eye once during training. He was on the ground and my finger was driven into his eye by my very BODY WEIGHT. He acted as if it might be bothered by it for a moment and said, “No big deal….so much for the JKD leading eye jab” (his own words). Jesus, one of my training partners now took a baseball bat to the skull and got up (I’m sure his assailant sh*t his pants by that point when he realized his attack hadn’t worked). What’s the point of all this? That humans are tough and don’t do down easily. If you don’t have SKILL and ability behind your foul tactics, you’re screwed if your opponent DOES. Quote: Bullets may be far more dangerous but it's the same principle. I don’t think bullets and eye jabs are anywhere close to each other on ANY spectrum. Quote: Simulations have much value and give you a feel for certain tactics/techniques even if not fully trained 'live' [simulations still help further develope your tool kit. Ok, how? Now it’s YOUR turn to explain the many benefits of “make believe fight training”. Please explain your point of view. Quote: Also pure sport oriented training as BJJ and boxing is or had become tends to get you fully focused on those tactics when you may be able to use simpler tactics on the street. Like striking the throat, groin, and ears for instance. You’re saying that Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a sport and I completely disagree. It is an alive art. Please explain why you believe it’s a sport. Remember, I actually train in the art and you don’t, at least you’ve not to the degree that I have. I see things as delivery systems and not sports. For example, you see boxing as a sport. It certainly can be competed as a sport, but, I see it as an art as well. I see the underlying delivery system that transcends both sport and street. It intrigues me that you can only see things as either “sport” or “street”. I do NOT believe that there is ANY such thing as a sport martial art. -John
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#306318 - 12/11/06 09:23 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: JKogas]
drgndrew < a god, > a man. Enthusiast Registered: 01/09/05 Posts: 599 Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia	Well John, I guess I'll have to agree to disagree. but the thing is I don't really disagree with you, i just have a different point of view. But don't assume that I don't get your point of view, just because i am expressing mine. I'm sure if we were face to face we would have a lot better understanding of each others views. Such is the limitations with written word, and the associated delayed feedback it entails. We all have psychological noise ( biases, beliefs, values, experience etc) that interferes with effective communication. The trick is to be aware of your own noises and how they are going to impact on your perception of the indented meaning of information. With the written word it is even more important. Anyway , I have offered my POV, hopefully it offers something to someone. Just as yours has for me. WHiB Edited because my Spilling socks _________________________ Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace) With Honour in Bushido Drew Guest www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au Bushi Dojos Self Protection Toowoomba Self Defence
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#306319 - 12/12/06 03:23 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Who Dares Wins Professional Poster Registered: 08/05/04 Posts: 3406 Loc: Salem, OR	I understand what you mean and I nkow that they indeed dont always end fights, for example I've been kicked hard in the groin in sparring and jsut kept fighting, though not as effectively but still. And boy you got some tough friends. Hope the one who got hit with the bat is ok. And yes, I do realize bullets are different, but should we never train firearms (LEO or military) jsut becuase we cant go live? All you can do simulate real life situations where you know you wont get hit. It's not 'real' yet it still makes us much better with those weapons. And for htose guys it must be trained regularly. Same with dirty tactics. Simulations further ingrain the skills in your brain and nural pathways, especially visualization which is a proven scientific fact. Physical training for 'real' is of ocurse better in most waysd but you do develope a strong connection and instinct through sims. Thoses arts are valuable but atre sports becuase oyu are fighting for points, and to win under given rules. You arenet fighting to survive (I hope anyway). There is a massive and obviouse difference between sport adn combat and boxing and BJJ is are sports that can have street tactics added. Yes BJJ does work well for combat but it has very impractical elements (liek actively taking people down i nthe street can be bad, especially if oyu shoot to a knee). _________________________ Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,
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#306320 - 12/12/06 05:34 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Prolific Registered: 01/25/03 Posts: 10813 Loc: North Carolina	drgndrew wrote: Quote: Well John, I guess I'll have to agree to disagree. but the thing is I don't really disagree with you, i just have a different point of view. But don't assume that I don't get your point of view, just because i am expressing mine. I'm sure if we were face to face we would have a lot better understanding of each others views. Such is the limitations with written word, and the associated delayed feedback it entails. I agree about the limitations of the written word. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. There’s a reason for that. And I don’t have the time or wherewithal to type a thousand words. I’m sure we’re a lot closer in philosophy than we realize at present. Stormdragon wrote: Quote: I understand what you mean and I know that they indeed don’t always end fights, for example I've been kicked hard in the groin in sparring and just kept fighting, though not as effectively but still. So have I. I winced through it and continued. It was uncomfortable but didn’t affect me mechanically. It’s a matter of toughing it out. Of course this isn’t to say that a groin shot couldn’t drop me. I never say never because anything can happen. Quote: And boy you got some tough friends. Hope the one who got hit with the bat is ok. He is ok and he is tough. He’s one of my veteran guys and is now an assistant coach at my gym. He’s also one of the smaller guys we have but the man has some game. I can’t say enough good things about him. His name is Brian Tomko. Great guy. Quote: And yes, I do realize bullets are different, but should we never train firearms (LEO or military) just because we cant go live? All you can do simulate real life situations where you know you wont get hit. It's not 'real' yet it still makes us much better with those weapons. And for those guys it must be trained regularly. Same with dirty tactics. Never said that simulated training is never used. In fact, it could be said that ALL training is ultimately “simulation”. The key is HOW it’s trained. Quote: Simulations further ingrain the skills in your brain and neural pathways, especially visualization which is a proven scientific fact. Physical training for 'real' is of course better in most ways but you do develop a strong connection and instinct through sims. Those arts are valuable but are sports because you are fighting for points, and to win under given rules. Always? So when I am training, I am fighting for points and trying to “win” under given rules? In training, all the time? Quote: You aren’t fighting to survive (I hope anyway). There is a massive and obvious difference between sport and combat and boxing and BJJ is are sports that can have street tactics added. So why don’t boxing and Brazilian jiu-jitsu already have street tactics added? Can’t a right cross knock someone out on the street? What about a rear naked choke? Are you saying a choke or a joint lock isn’t a good street tactic? If so, please explain why? Quote: Yes BJJ does work well for combat but it has very impractical elements (liek actively taking people down i nthe street can be bad, especially if oyu shoot to a knee). The obvious answer here is, don’t drop to a knee on your shot. Is there anything written somewhere in the BJJ by-laws that say I have to drop to a knee to shoot? I don’t use those sorts of takedowns anyway. But what’s always so bad about taking a person down in the street? Can’t there ever be situations where that could be your BEST option? Personally, I see the arts as just developmental exercises to cultivate the three core delivery systems. What strategy you choose is dependent on circumstances. Let me ask you a question; How would you get out of a headlock when lying on the ground, on asphalt? Just curious as to what you believe is the best “street approach” to this scenario. And anyone is free to answer this. Lastly, the difference between learning “tools” such as the eye jab (and other foul tactics) vs. developing “ability” is the difference between learning to use a wrench and understanding how to repair a car. I can show ANYONE how a wrench operates and they may even be able to use it to do a few simple tasks. But I would NOT ask such a person to repair my car, if you know what I mean. However in the hands of a master mechanic (skill in delivery systems cultivated through alive, performance training), a wrench is a thing of beauty to behold. It’d be like showing Joe Blow off the street how to perform an eye jab vs. showing a seasoned boxer how to do it. Which person do you think would be more skilled at it’s use? The answer is obvious. -John
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#306321 - 12/12/06 05:39 PM Re: Long term effect of eye gouging [Re: JKogas]
Leo_E_49 Professional Poster Registered: 02/24/05 Posts: 4115 Loc: California	I've seen this eye gouging topic discussed so many times on these forums. Maybe we should sticky a thread about it, it's getting tedious. Maybe if people used the search function more... Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/12/06 05:40 PM) _________________________ Self Defense (Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)
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