As the others have said, eyes are pretty tough. Unless you do truly massive tissue damage, the eye can repair itself.

Eye gouges as a tactic are as good as any other. The problem is that they get thought of as some magical, certain fight ender. They are not. They are a strike like any other. I have hit people's eyes in sparring (by accident), and it has dropped some of them right away. Others it did practically nothing.

It's like saying that a left hook to the temple WILL knock everyone out. Probably not, but it may. It depends on your timing, distancing and other factors.

There are no magic KO strikes that work every time, on every person.

Matt,

You cannot overlook the "Arkansas kick of death!"

JK, you cant say it never works or is completely unreliable, especially when you have guys on here tell you it works and they have done it effectively (Gavin for example, Just tapping a guys eyes will at least stun them a bit and gouging is all the better.
Although I'd be more ocnfident in ripping at their nuts but still (now that REALLY works lol).

The point is, you can never really know how any "one person" is going to react. Some people may crumble and some may fight like demons possessed. That's the point.

I have had my eyes jabbed during training and it didn't slow me down a bit. Of course, I'd continue to fight blinded. There are two ways of making me quit in a fight; break something that I need to fight with or knock me out cold. Making my eyes water, etc, isn't going to do it. I'm going to go until I drop, one eye hanging out and the other one facing inward -- doesn't matter to me, I WILL NOT STOP. But that's just me. Some guys may lose heart, you just never know.

The point is that eye gouges are not fight stoppers. Ask Yuki Nakai if a pretty vicious thumb in the eye stopped HIM. The guy fought three times while having lost the sight in that eye, losing only the third!! And THAT was to Rickson Gracie of all people.

Eye gouging might work and it might not. One thing is for certain; having these so-called, "fight stoppers" in your arsenal is no excuse for a lack of skill in a more "legitimate" game.


-John

How is a sport based system more legitamate? If it hurts a perosn and disables them I htink that's pretty legitamate.
What about boxing where you where big gloves and only punch, or greco wreslting or nay other restricted combat sport? Are those more legitamate?

I suppose how the eye gauge or whatever 'lethal' move it is gets to whats its meant to be hitting plays a part in for or against them.
Hand coming at your face ..weather clenched or open or finger first is not that different,,,if you can deal with punches..like say a boxers can for someone aiming for thier chin...then its not going to be much difference to deal a few inches up...Same with kicks,,,,the groin isnt far from legitimate targets that people train and fight to stop fully resisting.If its from the clinch then i guesse the guy whi knows lots ofthings to do there will be better than a guy who only eyegouges..plus the other can do it too.

Stormdragon wrote:

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How is a sport based system more legitamate?

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It is more legitimate because of it’s practicable nature. Eye gouge training is NOT practicable, meaning that you can truly only “pretend” to eye gouge, etc. Pretending to attack is not legitimate.

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If it hurts a perosn and disables them I htink that's pretty legitamate.

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Certainly, but it’s a matter of how you train it. It’s a matter of the realistic feedback that you get from the training that determines the legitimacy of a tactic.

Not saying that “eye boinks” aren’t capable of doing the job. Just that there’s no way to know and that training in no way determines that.

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What about boxing where you where big gloves and only punch, or greco wreslting or nay other restricted combat sport? Are those more legitamate?

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Yes. At least with boxing, the objective is to truly land the technique, as opposed to the eye boink. You CAN actually land the punch in training. It’s harder to land the eye boinks or rather, it’s more difficult to find partners who’ll let you.

With boxing, you can actually see the effectiveness of your punch when you knock a guy out. Same goes with Greco-Roman when you control the guy and take him down or throw him. You KNOW the technique works because you’ve demonstrated it on a resisting opponent.

The combat sports that you say are restricted, are actually LESS restrictive than any training that doesn’t allow you to actually apply the technique as it was intended. Such as with eye boinks. Do you follow me? I mean, you can’t do those techniques in training yet you CAN punch your partners. You CAN take them down. Yet at the same time you say that such practices are more restrictive than something that you can’t even fully practice. That just isn’t logical when you think about it.


-John

I practice eye strieksi n training. granted i really jsut touch or tap the eyes to get the message but even that has an effect, imagine what digging my fingers in a guys eyes will do.
I think you have a flawed idea of legitamate. So an eye gouge is an illagitamate and worthless fighting move? If I cant practice osmething live and all out I should never ever try it? Take a guillotine choke, I can practice that all i want o nthe mat, but i na SD situation on rough ground and someone slams me and breaks my ribs when i try to guillotine them form the guard, how is that better?

Stormdragon wrote:

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I practice eye strieksi n training. granted i really jsut touch or tap the eyes to get the message but even that has an effect, imagine what digging my fingers in a guys eyes will do.

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What "reaction" are you REALLY getting though? And, if I have to “imagine” what digging my fingers into a guys eyes will do, that doesn’t cut it. In fact, by making that statement, you just proved my point. Imagining an effect is like trying to predict an anatomical response a person will have to something that I might do to him. If I have to “imagine” what something will do, that only means that I don’t know for sure what the reaction might be. Thus we are back to square one, again. This is exactly what I am talking about here.

Having to guess and theorize about a person’s response is good on paper. But as everyone knows, what looks good on paper doesn’t always fly in practical application. This is basic to engineering everywhere. All I’m saying is, if you can't practice something the way it’s intended, I wouldn’t be betting my life on it. Never risk your ass on something that you can’t fully practice in training, particularly if you’re not good at the more “sportive” aspects of training - to use your terminology.

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I think you have a flawed idea of legitamate. So an eye gouge is an illagitamate and worthless fighting move?

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No, I never said it was worthless. And I’m thinking that you’re misunderstanding what I mean when I speak of a legitimate game. Do you know what the word practicable means? Click the link and read the definition to make sure so that you’ll understand what I’m saying. There is a difference in the words, practicable and practical.

Eye gouges aren’t practicable. In other words, you can’t “really” do them in training, just as you can’t “really” use groin strikes, or biting flesh. You CAN pretend, but you can’t really practice against a partners.

Thus, the things that you CAN fully practice are what I define as more legit. Again, that’s not to say that eye gouging is worthless. Try and understand what I mean by that.

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If I cant practice something live and all out I should never ever try it?

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No, didn’t say that either. What I’m saying is, I wouldn’t bet my ass on something that I could never try out “live” and that such tactics should never replace legitimate skill gained through more alive training.

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Take a guillotine choke, I can practice that all i want o nthe mat, but i na SD situation on rough ground and someone slams me and breaks my ribs when i try to guillotine them form the guard, how is that better?

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First of all, a guillotine shouldn’t put you in a position to be slammed in that manner. However if someone WERE lifting you up to slam you, you should open your guard and go for a sweep instead. Anyone beyond a basic blue belt level should be able to chain their techniques together. That’s why you train to develop a legitimate game rather than just learning a few techniques here and there. The difference there is like, someone just learning the guillotine vs. someone who has a highly developed guard position. There is no comparison between the skill levels of such people.

This is also why you add vale tudo into your grappling training. It isn’t complete otherwise. In that sort of training, you deal with this very sort of energy all the time.

But of course the easy answer is, “we train jiu-jitsu outside on the ASPHALT, because we are HARDCORE”, LOL



-John

What reaction do I get? Um, lets see, they go get stunned, and go into reaction mode. They temporairly are unable to see, they grope at their eyes and open themselves up, I mean it works.
On a side note, groin strikes and grabs can be practiced i ntraining as we do, aqnd it works, without even going hard and hurting the partner just grabbign there even lightly makes people let go instantly. It has never failed me. Someone grabs me form behind, even in training, I reach behind and grab or slap their groin and they let go.
Anyway, Eye strikes and taps do work in training as well as in combat, at least for me. Now then, everyone will react differently anyway, as you said before, some guys may give up with a gouge and others may fight harder. You can never be certain. You can never have a full proof technique jsut ones that will work often enough to trust, and eye attacks are like that for me as with groin attackes or throat attacks. Reactions are generally relative.
And no, I didn't practice the guillotine on ASPHALT I practiced on a lawn...and got slammed. On the mat getting slamemd deosn't matter but on a lawn or any hard ground it matter. Remeber Hughes slamming a guy into unconsciousness form the guard? Or any others that I've done that? I've seen it many times.
and I'm not a blue or purple belt or whatever. I only know osem basic fundamental techniques and tacticsa that usually work except in those cases.
I think your argument isn't really holding up. What else can you give me?