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#306211 - 12/07/06 11:58 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

addressing medulanet's view - what I'm wondering is, lets say you develop a killer and lightning fast effective response to an attack coming from your left....are you saying even though that response you find to be very effective - you won't take the time to develop it on the other side, but instead would rather train a separate response? not saying it's good or bad, just different from the logic that I'm used to.




No, that was not what I was saying. I was saying that I can use, for example, chudan soto uke (outside chest block) with my right hand to defeat ANY attack be it punch, kick, headbutt, or grab from any side at any angle; left, right, upsidedown, or sideways.

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#306212 - 12/08/06 01:05 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I see. that makes it alot clearer now of where you are coming from. I'm not that good, I can't plan in advance on which arm is going to get there first....so I tend to stick with the fundamental study of playing off the initial flinch defense with either arm by training each principle with either side depending on the unannounced attack. (you said 'hand'... let me know how that works out for you - again, I'm not that good to slap things out of the air with my hand when someone is really trying to hit me. arms are more reliable...or maybe thats another beginners thing for another thread).

murphy's law might dictate whether or not you happen to have your right hand available just when you were counting on it most.

it was an interesting thread anyway...always fun to hear how some do and how others think about things.

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#306213 - 12/08/06 01:21 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
By hand I simply mean right side, I get in the habit of refering to right as migite which is literally right hand, but one block uses everything from a parry with the off/guard hand to using the forearm, fist, and elbow of the blocking arm/hand. In shorin both hands/arms/fists are always involved. Actually another principle of shorin is that regardless of the attack I know what side I am going to step to and what technique I am going to use as/when I get there. Shorin adapts to the situation, that is its nature. Its kind of like the way we use our elbow destructions in shorin. Either right or left with the off hand used as a guard hand to parry. The structure is the same, but the way it is utilized differs depending on if the attack is coming from the left or the right. The elbow effective eliminates the effectiveness of attacks from that side just like the angular movement does in our chudan soto uke. In shorin we move to 45, fast, and strike hard, real hard. Its not just the block, but the whole package of what we do in shorin that makes it effective. The movement helps defend against shots/takedowns as well. Again, as my teacher always tells me "its all in there." It really is from the simplest block, to yakosuko kumite, to kata; that is if you train it right. One day I'll get good at this stuff, maybe not today, but one day.

In terms of the flinch in shorin flinch tells you when to move and will give you a little time with covering, but not where.


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#306214 - 12/10/06 09:17 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: medulanet]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I would say that most of the patterns I've learned are fairly well balanced, left to right, and we make it a standard habit to alternate sides when we are doing paddle or bag work.

However I had a hard time to keep from snickering today as I thought about this conversation. Last week, I signed my horse up for some advanced training as I had gotten her as far as I could. I met up with her trainer this afternoon to discuss her progress and focus for the rest of the month and was very amused to hear the very first thing he had to say...

"Horses are left or right handed, just like people. Your horse is VERY right handed, so we will be working on her left side about 90 percent of the time"

Its good to know, I'm not the only critter with a bad side

Laura

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#306215 - 12/11/06 11:02 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shorinjiryumike Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 250
I found this conversation very confusing perhaps I misunderstood! But hey I am a simple man.

In my training we mirror image all Kata! and train left and right sides equally in basics. We also train mirror images of Yakusoku,Tanshiki,Fukushiki, and Randori Kumite.

Im my opinion to be a complete Karateka one has to be adept with both sides of the body.

A scenario, you have injured your right hand training, you are on your way home from the dojo and encounter a couple of young thugs. You try to escape, talk your way out of it but they persist, you must defend yourself. How will you do this if you don't train your weak side.
I am a natural righty therefore my fighting stance is 95% left side forward. However if I am fighting a left handed person angle issues that are not there when you face a righty present themselves. Setting up attacks, evading attacks all should be manageable on both sides. How can I do this if I don't spend time on my weak side?

This is not to say that one shouldn't train ones favourite ( most effective ) techniques on ones strong sides. However, if your bread and butter techniques are nullified by injury or a superior adversary you better be able to use something else.
_________________________
Shorinjiryumike GKD

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#306216 - 12/11/06 11:25 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Shorinjiryumike]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I don't think thats the issue, Mike. just because someone might respond one way if attacked from the left side, doesn't mean they haven't developed another equally effective defense for the right flank.

my question was more to do with kata training method. and less to do with arguments that have the tone: "since I'm an awesome fighter and only train kata side of techniques, then training both sides must not be needed." or conversely: "since I'm an awesome fighter and train both sides of kata, then it's the only way to be good."




I was simply hoping to extract arguments (pros/cons) for training or not training both sides to 2-person kata application drills.

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#306217 - 12/11/06 11:31 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shorinjiryumike Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 250
Right then Ed, as I said I am a simple man. LOL
_________________________
Shorinjiryumike GKD

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#306218 - 12/11/06 07:43 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Shorinjiryumike]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL, some interesting views and of course all valid.

I have asked several high level karateka and like everything else, I got several different awnsers.

whats right, whats wrong ?

I think we all tend to analyze far to much (part of being modern, 'intellegent' people in a civilized world perhaps),

me very much included in that statement, karate IMO is/was/should be a simple, effective method of defending ourselves against an untrained attacker,

anything more we are making it something it isnt/wasnt or shouldnt be. the ultimate fightingart - not in my opinion, just what I do.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#306219 - 12/11/06 09:04 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Jim,

I think you've raised the most focused point. We can't be all things. No matter how many worthy studies we can find in the arts, there is still a limit what can be attempted, nobody as unlimited time to do everything.

That is why within any one art there is variation from group to group in that art. Of course some ascribe there should only be one curricula, but the reality is there is so much warp that can fit the art, there can be nothing that is perfectly conveyed the same everywhere.

So perform the kata one way, or learn to take that way and stop any attack, or perform the kata normal and mirror image and try to develop a perfectly ambidextrous ability to defend equally from either side. Cool if that's what you want.

But there is no simple guideline.

Of course in my study I just turn to my black belt manual (the one that came with the original belt) and the answer is on page 37, the page is blank, you write it as you go.

good training,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#306220 - 12/18/06 02:54 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
well it had to happen Victor, me making a focused point eh...............

in fairness most of what I do today is to strip my karate down, yes there is a small ammount of new material that Roger Sensei teaches me, but generally he shows me how to work with what I have, within our core system.

Im hoping this allows a deeper study of less material, there is still loads and loads of work in that material - honestly I dont see how it can be exhausted.

As an example I currently work 10 kata and most days that seems far to many........
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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