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#306181 - 12/06/06 03:40 PM ambidextrous kata
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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no matter how you choose to disect and use your kata as a training subject in your study...you will be faced with the fact kata only 'shows' one side (right or left) of a technique in many cases. same goes with turns - however you interpret it...it's 50% useless if you haven't trained the other side of your interpretation.

that means for any given kata application you've extracted...you'd have to be able to pull it off using either side or you can't really say you 'know' the techniques or by inferrence, 'know' the kata.

agree or disagree?

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#306182 - 12/06/06 03:51 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Seems reasonable. I'll give it a try during my next practise, and let you know how it works out!

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#306183 - 12/06/06 03:52 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
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OK. Don't like kata, don't really practice it, don't have traditional kata. However, with that said, when I did learn kata, in our style it was mandatory to learn it orthodox and southpaw...had to be performed with both sides, at least at our dojo.
-B

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#306184 - 12/06/06 04:04 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

One can always practice kata, mirror image kata, reverse kata, reverse mirror image kata, BUT, it's all rather irrelevent.

Theoretically any technique can counter any attack (in 90+% of the time), so one side's development is not better or worse for not doing mirror image kata.

It comes down to which is the better use of one's time in the long run. Getting so you are equally proficient with either side, or learning how to use what you have so the mirror image is irrelevant.
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#306185 - 12/06/06 04:20 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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disagree, generally anyhow.

im happy that I naturally work one side better for any given technique (im all mixed up though!),

There is utility in the technique's for things to work whatever side we use, generally anyhow.

I think this concept is a modern interpretation based on budo concepts, rather than a functional combat art.

Thats not to say that if someone wants to train their bad side more than the good side its wrong, I just dont think we need to,

most pay lip service to the old saying of work your bad side twice as hard anyhow.
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#306186 - 12/06/06 04:23 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Victor Smith]
butterfly Offline
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Victor,

I don’t understand the comment “irrelevant” and the consideration that any technique can be a counter to any other. I mean, if that’s the case, what is the meaning of any practice or trying to gain proficiency where there’s perceived weakness in one’s game?

Outside the consideration of kata, I know I am generally right handed, so I work on my weaker side so that if the opponent moves toward my weak side, I can still abuse him more or less competently with fairly strong techniques coming from that side. Doesn’t make me ambidextrous, but does make me aware that I have to compensate more…and that I thought was part of practicing.

From your response, I am reading one shouldn’t worry about one’s deficits from the weak side. And, more importantly at least to the traditional crowd, sounds like kata wouldn’t matter since any single technique could have an infinite number of variables to play with. Then why multiple techniques in any system or several kata?

-B

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#306187 - 12/06/06 04:24 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I don't get what you are saying Victor. is it useful to train things on both sides, in your opinion?

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#306188 - 12/06/06 04:26 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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In AKK, most of the kata are ambidexterous. I think it's a good idea to train them both sides, if you are going to bother with them at all.
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#306189 - 12/06/06 04:30 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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one of the methods I use to disect kata is when things appear in 'threes', this to me anyhow represents practise on both sides and then return to the first position to move on,

perhaps a clue that some techniques should be practised both sides as part of training, and others are not so critical.
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#306190 - 12/06/06 04:42 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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"mirror image kata"

I see where the misunderstand is. I'm not talking about kata as a performance being mirrored.

I'm saying when you decide to pluck out and work on a principle with 2-person drills...don't you work both sides?

I mean if you are interpreting a particular kata movement, for example, as an armbar...shouldn't you know how to perform the armbar on both sides reguardless if the kata shows both or not?

isn't that common sense? so then, working backwards: since you practice the kata solo to improve something...shouldn't you also train it's solo form in the mirror image?

I'm not saying just memorize the reverse form...I'm saying because you practice 2-person drill on both sides...shouldn't that reflect back to the solo form?

edit - or actually, thats backwards...the reverse solo techniques should reflect upon the 2-person drills.

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#306191 - 12/06/06 05:17 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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you make good points Ed and it's something im not totally sure of myself.


I come from the place (first 10 years of training) where both sides were worked hard, on everything and the theory was that you could do everything on both sides equal as needed, good training I guess.

Currently for bunkai practise we work both sides, however I accept that we have a weaker side and I cant say I make a point of working harder on the weaker side these days, to many other things to ge ton with.

Im trying to be as true to the kata as possible, and as you say it would seem that the kata favour one side in some movements - why isnt everything repeated and returned to first position ? (which by default trains one side more anyhow),

Perhaps mirrored kata is important from this respect?

Part of what I do is to strip my karate down to its bare bones, including training practises,

I do this as I want an applicable self defense system ie natural and effective, as historically accurate as I can make it (ie karate) and that doesnt require much sophistication, just hard training over a long period of time......it gets the job done.

Sure both side skill is obtained and beneficial but is it really the main driver in defending oneself to the level required? (different from tournaments or arranged street brawls of course).

As an example if we think of karate blocks, as blocks/deflections my foot/body position can generally mean that a 'one sided' technique ability is effective and keeps me in my comfort zone, or I select another appropiate technique, from a small batch of techniques that work.


ie front face punch coming in a left shuto uke has function dependant on my timing, distance irrelevant of which arm is coming in.

ie I will end up inside or outside - but shuto uke is trained both sides so bad example, I would use the relevant arm as best I could..........LOL

no easy awnser here I think, I know that I have trained front kicks hard for nearly 20 years now and yet when I spar relativly heavy (with a bit of pressure) its my left leg front kick that hits the honey spot - rarely the right??????????????? My right hand punch does the damage on body shots, always has...........

I think Victors point on time avalaible is a fair one and one I accept means that I NEED to have ability in a small set of things as opposed to spreading myself to thin.

I guess the opposite views of training boths sides to the same level or working your strengths both have merit.

But then again im an odd one as I genuinly find that I have favorite sides for nearly every technique, and a few that naturally work well both sides.
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#306192 - 12/06/06 06:09 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
butterfly Offline
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Loc: Torrance, CA
Jim,

Perhaps I am just over-thinking with respect to all of this (especially considering how I generally view kata), but basically I am just coming from this simple point: If you work a defense for a grab to your right hand using some simple techniques, wouldn't you work it in the reverse if your left hand was grabbed? That's it.

To me, if you are right handed and the opponent is more to your left...you can always throw a right cross or reverse punch in that direction. Now if he was to your right, all other things being equal, wouldn't you want at least a close approximation of ability to throw a left cross or left reverse punch over that way?

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#306193 - 12/06/06 06:18 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: butterfly]
shoshinkan Offline
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Loc: UK
'wouldn't you want at least a close approximation of ability to throw a left cross or left reverse punch over that way?'

Yes perhaps you would,

but that isnt the same as making your weak side as good as your main side, which takes considerable effort and specific prolonged training.

Or you could just use another technique I guess is my point?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#306194 - 12/06/06 06:35 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
butterfly Offline
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I understand what you are saying, and yes, perhaps finding something "almost" as usuable would be ok too. My feeling is that you are still working out weak spots and thus, bring more utility to the game for efficiency's sake on one's weaker tools.

My argument would reside in the fact that everyone practices kihon with the idea of using both arms and both legs in a similar way for all techniques done. You generally do an equal amount of right front kicks to left front kicks, despite feeling better with one side.

If I slid down the range of things to Victor's consideration (if I took his reasoning correctly) then I would only practice front kicks and side kicks with my right, and round kicks with my left...since these are my strong sides for these techniques. The point being, that utility of anything lies in its practice and I want to have more than moderate proficiency with my "weaker" side...not saying I would accomplish equality, but the learning and practice is there for use in case I find it more efficient to throw a good left, instead of doing three other techniques to accomodate my strong right.

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#306195 - 12/06/06 06:38 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by shoshinkan -

Quote:

but that isnt the same as making your weak side as good as your main side, which takes considerable effort and specific prolonged training.

Or you could just use another technique I guess is my point?




I guess I'm not understanding that, either.

Difficult for me to get why anyone wouldn't put emphasis on learning techniques both sides. At black belt level in AKK, you are expected to be able to do all the SD techniques fluidly on both sides, and the same in BJJ (starting at white belt).
_________________________
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#306196 - 12/06/06 07:30 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
what if my strong side for a particular technique happens to be the opposite of what kata shows? should I change the kata?

I know I'm being difficult - just instigating thought is all....

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#306197 - 12/06/06 08:06 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
someday I'll learn and not try and make quick posts for a layered topic.

First some definitions.

A mirrored kata is performing the kata starting with the opposite side. If Seisan begins with Left Foot Forward Left Side Block Right Reverse Punch, Mirrored Seisan begins with Right Foot Forward Right Side Block Left Reverse Punch.

Most kata do techniques in series of two, three or four. As three seems unbalanced the idea behind mirroring a kata is that you are getting stronger with the side the source versions is slighting.

There are some tai chi groups that do this. At some point in their training they switch the form into the mirror version.

I have worked this a little, but it's not a focus of my kata practice.

I have no idea what any of you do, but I practice my kata as my instructors taught me. Each technique has meaning to be used to drop/break/throw/down/strike/whatever an opponent. Just because one side does it twice and the other side of my body does it once does not mean I work to make the application potential weaker when I use it.

BUT, most techniques can stop any attack if your training encompases the range of what they are, if you understand the correct way to set the opponent up so your angle of insertion works, etc. If your left side block right reverse punch is stronger, you can use it successfully against left or right grabs/punches, as an example.

Kata, as I practice it, is an energy development device. Working the application potential (with layers of ability) is a different task. I don't find that mirroring a kata inreases one's of your' sides abilites.

One of my instructors when he teaches the kata, actually takes each technique and works drills for the student on both sides, decoupling the techniques from the kata, as well as practicing the kata. Both tools have separate uses.

Back to definitions. Reverse kata is the concept you start on the end of the kata and work the kata back to the beginning. Mirror Reverse kata is the same but beginning with the other side.

Reverse kata is actually a vast concept, for when you look at the application potential of techniques backward, you are in for some surprising ideas.

BTW, These concepts and the marrying of the study of each techniques application potential is larger than anyone can really address. You can pick and choose pieces of it, but as the field is limitness you might well end up locked in a babble of potential.

Back to the idea, why have many kata? Again you do what you were shown. It's balderdash that in the past 100 years people tried to find simpler ways to look at their arts. Time after time people trained with multiple instructors and the arts grew.

What is the true past, listen very closely I'll give you something totally true. The founders of the current arts had no desire for you, or me or any of us to know the past. Except for the imperfection of oral transmission, they left no record so NOBODY has any idea of what the past was.

And the oral record, nobody can prove. It's simple they didnt' care if YOU would know. They made it impossible for you to know and they succeeded.

You can logic any answer you wish, and it's unprovable, just logical, which is very very very different from true.

If one of your sides techniques are weaker, you have to train so that isn't so. Playing with the kata may help, or may be irrelevant, because I still maintian the real purpose of kata is to learn how to marshall your energies in your movement.

You might only ever need one movement for every occassion, but the wider potential of deep kata study might help you develop that one move far better than it itself.

pleasantly,


Edited by Victor Smith (12/06/06 08:14 PM)
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#306198 - 12/06/06 09:05 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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thanks for elaborating Victor. never heard of 'reverse kata' nor do I see benefit....kind of like playing a beatles record backwards: it might vaguely happen to sound like something, but probably not intended.

about mirror kata - I understand performing the kata starting with the opposite side and working thru it. ...but I'm talking about taking a segment of kata of your choice (lets say, the opening to Sepai since we both are familiar with it), then working the principles of that opening with a partner (again, the application/interpretation of your choice).

will you ONLY develop the one-side of the application? or wouldn't you switch it up both sides? of course there will always be a favored side....we've all done simple punching on both sides pretty equally left and right, but yet there is still a dominant side - so I'm not talking about working hours and hours trying to remove that bias.

opening movement of seipai: let's say for arguments sake the interpretation is an attack from the left side - parry with the left hand while dropping down into an open right hand mawashi attack to the neck.

reset. now...someone attacks from the right side....repeat with it's 'mirror'.

makes sense doesn't it? the kata shows only one side, but it should go without saying that both are trained fairly equally. even people who don't train applications from kata work both sides in such drills, so theres the sanity check.

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#306199 - 12/06/06 09:49 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Ed, I guess you train application differently in goju than we do in shorin. For the most part in shorin an attack stikes. It doesn't have to be left or right. An attack simply strikes. I can use the same techniques against both left and right, however, they will be applied differently. Although I do train both sides it is simply because I am very comfortable doing so. However, in shorin there is no pressing need to, simply because blocking with the right hand, punching with the left hand, and turning 180 degrees can be applied in so many ways against any attack.

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#306200 - 12/06/06 11:06 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
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Ed, there are more things under the heavens than in our stories..... Reverse kata is an obscure practice, but it is real and works because it's just another layer of techniqeu. Few will undertake it because of the lack of time or inability to move in new dimensions.

One result of training programs often is to put walls around what exists, and create limits. That isn't bad or good, just the result of a training program. How we use those walls or learn to climb over them depends on many factors.

I feely admit I understand the training approach, but my own studies don't leave much time to really focus on it, and there are more layers still than what I've mentioned.

You might remember what you don't understand can often bite you. Its just how you play the percentages and how much you want your application of your art to be unknown by anyone else, including your students (another hint).

As far as working a technique, it's not just raw power. Many techniques can be worked soft, half soft half hard, and hard. A weak side isn't necessarily weak if you understand those potentials.

I recently took a long clincs where all the hard blocks wered done soft with great effect. The weak side might just be a mental focus instead of a reality.

In any case our training must be balanced on those portions of the art we're working with.

From my perspective our arts are vaster than any human being can fully approach. We only need a fraction of a fraction of their technique to stop anything. But life if its long allows us to keep building new skills and discarding some older ones, to keep our focus alive, our potential ever changing (so even our instructor doesn't fully know what we are - another hint), and the continual binding of everything together to craft a greater whole.

BTW, anyone who doesn't want to touch those potentials, I'm fully cool with too. Its what you can do that matters.


Edited by Victor Smith (12/06/06 11:08 PM)
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#306201 - 12/07/06 02:51 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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shut it and stop being difficult

if I had a student that naturally wanted to work the kata mirror then they would do so, with some work the way everyone else did it after a few years training.
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#306202 - 12/07/06 08:17 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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people are side-stepping the point...or either that, I haven't read properly what victor, med and sho are trying to get across. it's a simple flow of logic:

1. some parts within kata show both sides as a way of working both sides. true or false?

2. what we consider 'basic/core techniques' - punches, kicks, parry, strikes, throws, etc when trained by themselves as isolated drills, both sides are trained. true or false?

3. if basic/core principles and techniques (many if not all of which can be found in kata) are trained both sides, then is it logical to assume drills that work both sides of anything isolated out from kata? regardless if the kata actually shows both sides or not. true or false?

btw, I'll try to make it clear Jim - I'm not talking about memorizing and training an entire mirrored form - I'm ONLY talking about after extracting something particular of your choice from kata and doing an isolated drill on that one particular principle/technique. but if you aren't training that way and only train literally what the kata shows as medulanet says he does, then my initial assumption was off to begin with.

it would be a curious practice if throws were only a potential over one hip...or wrap-ups had to be from one side of entry. being comfortable with both sides for any given practice..isn't that in itself, as victor says, adding 'new dimensions' and opening possibilities to the technique?

actually, since our bodies are semetrical, it's hard for me to imagine a fighting principle that didn't automatically address both sides...in fact, it could be argued that it's inherent.

nobody answered the question: what happens if I find out I'm better and more comfortable on one side with a 2-person drill that happens to be the opposite side of what the kata shows? should I spend the time to force the 'weaker' less comfortable side?

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#306203 - 12/07/06 08:34 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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'nobody answered the question: what happens if I find out I'm better and more comfortable on one side with a 2-person drill that happens to be the opposite side of what the kata shows? should I spend the time to force the 'weaker' less comfortable side?'

No I dont believe that we should force the weaker side, train it and over time see improvements but do not make a big deal out of it is my awnser, to many other things to be getting on with IMO.
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#306204 - 12/07/06 09:21 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed,

I think we’re shifting perceptions on what this topic is about.

To try and answer your questions.

1. some parts within kata show both sides as a way of working both sides. true or false.

My answer is true, from one point of view.

2. what we consider 'basic/core techniques' - punches, kicks, parry, strikes, throws, etc when trained by themselves as isolated drills, both sides are trained. true or false?

It’s not a true and false. I both do this and I don’t train singular techniques this
way. For beginners true, for advancing students mostly true, for more advancing students likely not on any regular basis.

3. if basic/core principles and techniques (many if not all of which can be found in kata) are trained both sides, then is it logical to assume drills that work both sides of anything isolated out from kata? regardless if the kata actually shows both sides or not. true or false?

As I’ve stated one of my traditions of study does this extensively, and at the same time many of my other drilling approaches also come from the same source.

I'm ONLY talking about after extracting something particular of your choice from kata and doing an isolated drill on that one particular principle/technique

Ed, what you’re getting at it the art of being an instructor, which requires you to address the students’ needs, not be a cookie cutter and train everyone the same way.

One way of looking at this is what boxers or karate fighters use in competition. They don’t fight two ways, they tend to take their strongest side and work their techniques accordingly. To fit their strongest attacks into any attacker. Judo players do the same thing, work their strongest techniques.

So one answer is to always use what you do strongest from any position. That is a fine approach to address a random attack.

That doesn’t preclude to keep working on you weaknesses, but unless they become your strengths, intelligent design would be not to make them your primary choice.

As time passes our abilities keep changing, good and bad, and we have to keep re-addressing how to utilize our skills sets day by day.

So part of this is what an instructor chooses to build a students potential. Part of this is also our self knowledge to know where we are today.

My students don’t choose how they train, I control that. When they practice on their own that becomes their responsibility.
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#306205 - 12/07/06 12:05 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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there are so many principles that appear in kata on only one side, yet the principles are symetrical and irrelavent to side (it's assumed both attacker and defender have 2 arms and 2 legs each).

during 2-person drills, we don't know which side the attacker is going to throw with...and it shouldn't matter. of course there'll be a favorite side. after we find our favorite side for any given principle, does it make sense to discontinue it on the other? what if the favored side doesn't correspond to the kata side?

ok, I'll drop making the point... let me ask this instead: in Sanseiru, there is the kick/guard/strike :
this one:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=400

it appears repeated 4 times in the kata in 4 directions....the curious thing is that all 4 times are with the same side! (left kick, rising right, left punch). weird.

but whichever way you choose to interpret those movements...I'm right-handed and feel more comfortable striking with my right and guarding with my left. thats opposite from kata.

do I care that people here wouldn't train both sides to that since it's not shown in kata? nope.
but the answers were quite interesting.

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#306206 - 12/07/06 01:21 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Really good analysis going on here!

Good reads--thanks.

I always felt that the "reason" many kata favor one side--usually the right--is because most PEOPLE, favor one side, usually the right.

Certainly you want to train both sides--being able to use both is a real advantage, but for most people there will always be a "stronger" side.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#306207 - 12/07/06 02:05 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, I think you will find your answer in what both Victor and CXT posted. One the kata were probably created by either people who favored their right. There may even be a kata which favors the left, but many kata will have one side that is favored to some degree. Why? Because the person who created it probably had a strong side and favored it when fighting. That is a good thing. It is better to use your strong side than your weak side. I would rather have one side that I am GREAT with than two sides I am GOOD with. In fighting the only real strength of getting good with your weak side is to change timing and throw your opponent off by switching sides. However, your strong side will remain your bread and butter. Now, when teaching a large class the Gendai way it is hard to give the proper individual attention necessary to address individual strengths and weaknesses. If your strengths do not fit in with what is taught you are out of luck. However, this is not the way of classical karate. Its really very simple. If your strong side is the opposite side then work that side. Its not about only doing what is shown in kata, its about working to your strengths and filling in holes. You don't want your weakness to become a liability, however, you don't want to take too much time away from fully developing your strength. I think you are overthinking this. Okinawan karate is very simple and is about what is most natural. It becomes complex when we lose sight of that and try to make things fit like the whole there is no grappling in kata so I cannot use this stuff for grappling. If it feels most natural to grab a guy when drilling kata application then do it. Then go learn how to do it right and your kata will come alive. Same with wondering which side is the right side. If it feels better to use the other side then use the other side. I don't know how it could be any more simple. Another example is if your left punch is extremely weak would you be comfortable entering a fight with such a weakness. If the answer is not then develop that side. If the answer is yes then more power to you.

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#306208 - 12/07/06 04:07 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
often on the forum I'm asking rhetorical questions to spark conversation, not questions (necessarily) born from confusion. training couldn't be more simple and literally one-on-one since instruction can be demonstrated and taught on either or both sides. it's recommended to train and be able to pull techniques off on both sides without thinking. doesn't seem like an earth-shattering concept, yet people are speaking as if it's a waste of time or 'gendai training method'. I'd say only training the kata-side is gendai. no evidence for sure either way of how classical kata was taught and trained, so it's opinion.

ironic you say I'm 'overthinking' it - I thought that was the point of this medium of 'supplimentary training' ...cerebrialize now on a forum if we want, if not then why even bother chatting about anything - just train. but since we ARE participating on a forum, why bother stating not to think too much? couldn't I equally accuse you of not thinking enough?

Nothing written here changes what I do and learn in class. I was just wondering if others considered both sides to principles they extract from kata and 2-person drill. doesn't sound like many do and I guess I'm kindof surprized by that.

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#306209 - 12/07/06 10:05 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Acutally I don't think its that people don't train it that way or consider utilizing both sides. I personally never thought about only training one side because it only occurs on one side in kata or having a pressing need to get both sides up to the same level. I simply deal with attacks my opponent throws. Now if I notice a weakness that exposes a hole in my defense/offense I will certainly train it. But I have not pressing need to build up my left because my right is stronger. Maybe one of these days I will get around to it.

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#306210 - 12/07/06 10:06 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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I was at work when reading the replies so I inadvertantly missed the points you made of the progressive approach.

just so I understand, prior to advanced student training you instruct principles from kata into 2-person drills using both sides. then, as the student matures, you allow them more freedom to gradually develop side-bias as drills become more free-flowing. I can understand that.

I guess what thru me off is at the beginning of the thread:
Victor:
"It comes down to which is the better use of one's time in the long run. Getting so you are equally proficient with either side, or learning how to use what you have so the mirror image is irrelevant. "

shoshinkan:
"I think this concept is a modern interpretation based on budo concepts, rather than a functional combat art.

Thats not to say that if someone wants to train their bad side more than the good side its wrong, I just dont think we need to"

victor:
"I don't find that mirroring a kata inreases one's of your' sides abilites."

etc...
so maybe I wasn't getting the whole message when gears changed to elaborate into 2-person kata drills ARE in fact a good thing to work both sides...and gradually are relaxed to allow freedom for the student to capitolize on their strengths.

see what I mean? the arguments people initially put up against mirrored kata apps changed from a black and white opinion: basicaly stating "no, we dont waste time on non-kata sides" to morphing into "well actually, we do it but just for beginner ranks"

I suspect most don't bother with it, but are trying to give 'correct' answers. I believe as I was told one day: "if you can only get kata-side working, then it's only half as versitile." makes sense to me....particularly with fundamental principles that are only addressed on one side in a given form.

addressing medulanet's view - what I'm wondering is, lets say you develop a killer and lightning fast effective response to an attack coming from your left....are you saying even though that response you find to be very effective - you won't take the time to develop it on the other side, but instead would rather train a separate response? not saying it's good or bad, just different from the logic that I'm used to.

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#306211 - 12/07/06 11:58 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

addressing medulanet's view - what I'm wondering is, lets say you develop a killer and lightning fast effective response to an attack coming from your left....are you saying even though that response you find to be very effective - you won't take the time to develop it on the other side, but instead would rather train a separate response? not saying it's good or bad, just different from the logic that I'm used to.




No, that was not what I was saying. I was saying that I can use, for example, chudan soto uke (outside chest block) with my right hand to defeat ANY attack be it punch, kick, headbutt, or grab from any side at any angle; left, right, upsidedown, or sideways.

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#306212 - 12/08/06 01:05 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I see. that makes it alot clearer now of where you are coming from. I'm not that good, I can't plan in advance on which arm is going to get there first....so I tend to stick with the fundamental study of playing off the initial flinch defense with either arm by training each principle with either side depending on the unannounced attack. (you said 'hand'... let me know how that works out for you - again, I'm not that good to slap things out of the air with my hand when someone is really trying to hit me. arms are more reliable...or maybe thats another beginners thing for another thread).

murphy's law might dictate whether or not you happen to have your right hand available just when you were counting on it most.

it was an interesting thread anyway...always fun to hear how some do and how others think about things.

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#306213 - 12/08/06 01:21 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
By hand I simply mean right side, I get in the habit of refering to right as migite which is literally right hand, but one block uses everything from a parry with the off/guard hand to using the forearm, fist, and elbow of the blocking arm/hand. In shorin both hands/arms/fists are always involved. Actually another principle of shorin is that regardless of the attack I know what side I am going to step to and what technique I am going to use as/when I get there. Shorin adapts to the situation, that is its nature. Its kind of like the way we use our elbow destructions in shorin. Either right or left with the off hand used as a guard hand to parry. The structure is the same, but the way it is utilized differs depending on if the attack is coming from the left or the right. The elbow effective eliminates the effectiveness of attacks from that side just like the angular movement does in our chudan soto uke. In shorin we move to 45, fast, and strike hard, real hard. Its not just the block, but the whole package of what we do in shorin that makes it effective. The movement helps defend against shots/takedowns as well. Again, as my teacher always tells me "its all in there." It really is from the simplest block, to yakosuko kumite, to kata; that is if you train it right. One day I'll get good at this stuff, maybe not today, but one day.

In terms of the flinch in shorin flinch tells you when to move and will give you a little time with covering, but not where.


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#306214 - 12/10/06 09:17 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: medulanet]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I would say that most of the patterns I've learned are fairly well balanced, left to right, and we make it a standard habit to alternate sides when we are doing paddle or bag work.

However I had a hard time to keep from snickering today as I thought about this conversation. Last week, I signed my horse up for some advanced training as I had gotten her as far as I could. I met up with her trainer this afternoon to discuss her progress and focus for the rest of the month and was very amused to hear the very first thing he had to say...

"Horses are left or right handed, just like people. Your horse is VERY right handed, so we will be working on her left side about 90 percent of the time"

Its good to know, I'm not the only critter with a bad side

Laura

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#306215 - 12/11/06 11:02 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shorinjiryumike Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 250
I found this conversation very confusing perhaps I misunderstood! But hey I am a simple man.

In my training we mirror image all Kata! and train left and right sides equally in basics. We also train mirror images of Yakusoku,Tanshiki,Fukushiki, and Randori Kumite.

Im my opinion to be a complete Karateka one has to be adept with both sides of the body.

A scenario, you have injured your right hand training, you are on your way home from the dojo and encounter a couple of young thugs. You try to escape, talk your way out of it but they persist, you must defend yourself. How will you do this if you don't train your weak side.
I am a natural righty therefore my fighting stance is 95% left side forward. However if I am fighting a left handed person angle issues that are not there when you face a righty present themselves. Setting up attacks, evading attacks all should be manageable on both sides. How can I do this if I don't spend time on my weak side?

This is not to say that one shouldn't train ones favourite ( most effective ) techniques on ones strong sides. However, if your bread and butter techniques are nullified by injury or a superior adversary you better be able to use something else.
_________________________
Shorinjiryumike GKD

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#306216 - 12/11/06 11:25 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Shorinjiryumike]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I don't think thats the issue, Mike. just because someone might respond one way if attacked from the left side, doesn't mean they haven't developed another equally effective defense for the right flank.

my question was more to do with kata training method. and less to do with arguments that have the tone: "since I'm an awesome fighter and only train kata side of techniques, then training both sides must not be needed." or conversely: "since I'm an awesome fighter and train both sides of kata, then it's the only way to be good."




I was simply hoping to extract arguments (pros/cons) for training or not training both sides to 2-person kata application drills.

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#306217 - 12/11/06 11:31 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shorinjiryumike Offline
Member

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 250
Right then Ed, as I said I am a simple man. LOL
_________________________
Shorinjiryumike GKD

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#306218 - 12/11/06 07:43 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Shorinjiryumike]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL, some interesting views and of course all valid.

I have asked several high level karateka and like everything else, I got several different awnsers.

whats right, whats wrong ?

I think we all tend to analyze far to much (part of being modern, 'intellegent' people in a civilized world perhaps),

me very much included in that statement, karate IMO is/was/should be a simple, effective method of defending ourselves against an untrained attacker,

anything more we are making it something it isnt/wasnt or shouldnt be. the ultimate fightingart - not in my opinion, just what I do.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#306219 - 12/11/06 09:04 PM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Jim,

I think you've raised the most focused point. We can't be all things. No matter how many worthy studies we can find in the arts, there is still a limit what can be attempted, nobody as unlimited time to do everything.

That is why within any one art there is variation from group to group in that art. Of course some ascribe there should only be one curricula, but the reality is there is so much warp that can fit the art, there can be nothing that is perfectly conveyed the same everywhere.

So perform the kata one way, or learn to take that way and stop any attack, or perform the kata normal and mirror image and try to develop a perfectly ambidextrous ability to defend equally from either side. Cool if that's what you want.

But there is no simple guideline.

Of course in my study I just turn to my black belt manual (the one that came with the original belt) and the answer is on page 37, the page is blank, you write it as you go.

good training,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#306220 - 12/18/06 02:54 AM Re: ambidextrous kata [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
well it had to happen Victor, me making a focused point eh...............

in fairness most of what I do today is to strip my karate down, yes there is a small ammount of new material that Roger Sensei teaches me, but generally he shows me how to work with what I have, within our core system.

Im hoping this allows a deeper study of less material, there is still loads and loads of work in that material - honestly I dont see how it can be exhausted.

As an example I currently work 10 kata and most days that seems far to many........
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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