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#305902 - 12/05/06 03:10 PM Goju Reference
kgcobra320 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Hartford, CT, USA
I'm looking for reccomendations for really good kata and
general references for Goju-Ru karate, both books and DVD's
would be good.

Thank you,
KG

Top
#305903 - 12/05/06 03:49 PM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
Meibukan003 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

I'm looking for reccomendations for really good kata and
general references for Goju-Ru karate, both books and DVD's
would be good.

Thank you,
KG




Maybe the link in my sig could help?
_________________________
My Bo: http://www.meibukan003.110mb.com/

Top
#305904 - 12/06/06 10:53 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: Meibukan003]
kgcobra320 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Hartford, CT, USA
Nice web site but I was looking more for instructional kata
books and DVD's. Maybe some reccomendations from the list
on Amazon. There are quite a few and since I'm not an
experienced Goju-Ru guy I though I could get some direction
from some one who knows and not waste my money.

Thanks
KG

Top
#305905 - 12/06/06 10:59 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
Meibukan003 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

Nice web site but I was looking more for instructional kata
books and DVD's. Maybe some reccomendations from the list
on Amazon. There are quite a few and since I'm not an
experienced Goju-Ru guy I though I could get some direction
from some one who knows and not waste my money.

Thanks
KG




In the 'Dojo Info' link of that web site, it contains the web site links to many different dojo's. They would likely have media for sale (DVD's etc.)
_________________________
My Bo: http://www.meibukan003.110mb.com/

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#305906 - 12/06/06 11:14 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
instructional kata books and DVD's.

there are none. videos/books are available as supplements/reference to actually training with an instructor in those arts. trying to mimic movements from a video without in-person instruction is the real time/money waster.

how much will you get out of a $50 2-hour DVD vs. $50 for a month of in-class instruction?

at the very least go to a seminar, or make a road trip once a month. another way, perhaps cheaper is ask around in goju forums if anyone who trains in CT would invite your noobie butt into their class.

Top
#305907 - 12/06/06 02:09 PM Re: Goju Reference [Re: Ed_Morris]
Meibukan003 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

instructional kata books and DVD's.

there are none. videos/books are available as supplements/reference to actually training with an instructor in those arts. trying to mimic movements from a video without in-person instruction is the real time/money waster.

how much will you get out of a $50 2-hour DVD vs. $50 for a month of in-class instruction?

at the very least go to a seminar, or make a road trip once a month. another way, perhaps cheaper is ask around in goju forums if anyone who trains in CT would invite your noobie butt into their class.




I agree. Don't need books at white belt. Need teacher.

_________________________
My Bo: http://www.meibukan003.110mb.com/

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#305908 - 12/06/06 03:17 PM Re: Goju Reference [Re: Ed_Morris]
kgcobra320 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Hartford, CT, USA
Quote:

instructional kata books and DVD's.

there are none. videos/books are available as supplements/reference to actually training with an instructor in those arts. trying to mimic movements from a video without in-person instruction is the real time/money waster.

how much will you get out of a $50 2-hour DVD vs. $50 for a month of in-class instruction?

at the very least go to a seminar, or make a road trip once a month. another way, perhaps cheaper is ask around in goju forums if anyone who trains in CT would invite your noobie butt into their class.




Probably my fault for not completly explaining but I already have a decade plus of experience in Shotokan.
Still learning, far from mastering, if one can actually accomplish that, but certainly not a noobie.

I'm currently analyzing the kata of Shotokan to extract the practical self defense applications. Since most of the MA katas share common roots a lot can be learned from studing other MA dissaplines, esp traditiional Okinawan arts like Goju-Ru.

Just looking for the best references out there with respect to accuracy and quality. I just need to see the moves and understand the particular technique philosophy of the art, as each has their own.

Respectfully,
KG

Top
#305909 - 12/06/06 03:21 PM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
In that case...join a Goju school. Because everything I've read so far, and all the (dubious) variations of kata performed on videos and youtube.com simply don't compare to one, outstanding, live performance of 'fight' (or 'bunkai') Goju kata.

Quote:

I just need to see the moves and understand the particular technique philosophy of the art, as each has their own.



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#305910 - 12/06/06 05:32 PM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Kgcobra

Problem is that goju and shotokan share very few "roots."

My concern is that given the differences, you will be "seeing" the applications thu a shotokan lens--rathern than thu a goju one.

If all your wanting to do is compare/contrast--then you might check Tsunami video.

I serious recommend that you DON'T attempt to learn the "how toos" from the DVD's--without a solid grounding in Goju, you'll just end up "creating" a garish, ugly and WAY less than effective "mis-mash" of techniques.

Don't say you were not warned


Edited by cxt (12/06/06 05:34 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#305911 - 12/06/06 05:39 PM Re: Goju Reference [Re: cxt]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
or bearing in mind your 10 years in shotokan, perhaps finding a good shorin ryu dojo would be best?

back to the roots as they say................
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#305912 - 12/07/06 09:29 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
Meibukan003 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

Quote:

instructional kata books and DVD's.

there are none. videos/books are available as supplements/reference to actually training with an instructor in those arts. trying to mimic movements from a video without in-person instruction is the real time/money waster.

how much will you get out of a $50 2-hour DVD vs. $50 for a month of in-class instruction?

at the very least go to a seminar, or make a road trip once a month. another way, perhaps cheaper is ask around in goju forums if anyone who trains in CT would invite your noobie butt into their class.




Probably my fault for not completly explaining but I already have a decade plus of experience in Shotokan.
Still learning, far from mastering, if one can actually accomplish that, but certainly not a noobie.

I'm currently analyzing the kata of Shotokan to extract the practical self defense applications. Since most of the MA katas share common roots a lot can be learned from studing other MA dissaplines, esp traditiional Okinawan arts like Goju-Ru.

Just looking for the best references out there with respect to accuracy and quality. I just need to see the moves and understand the particular technique philosophy of the art, as each has their own.

Respectfully,
KG




I know that there is a DVD of Master Metatsu Yagi performing kata (He made it last year), but even I'm not sure where to get it. My sensei would know though (The General Secretary of IMGKA). Here's the e-mail address: budokan@sympatico.ca Just something to consider. At least you could see the katas done by the head of my system...
_________________________
My Bo: http://www.meibukan003.110mb.com/

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#305913 - 12/07/06 10:29 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: cxt]
kgcobra320 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Hartford, CT, USA
My goal here is not to become a proficient Goju-Ru practioner or to insinuate that it can be learned by reading books and watching DVD's.

There are numerous techniques in the Shotokan kata that also exist in the Goju kata and other disaplines katas as well, Shorin-Ru included with many others. Since most of the Shotokan kata have been watered down there is a lot of utility in studing the katas of the more traditional MA. Studing these katas reveals the missing techniques in the Shotokan kata and allows easier extraction of the applications. I have been working on close range techniques and there-in lies the reason for my inquiry of Goju-Ru.

I'm not sure if it's my language or just the clumsy, impersonal internet, that's the problem but if asked the same question I would have responded differently. There are numerous Shotokan publications out there, some good, some not so good and I nearly have them all. I could easily reccomend and have reccomended the best resources to someone looking to study Shotokan kata and techniques.

The internet is a great source of information but then again somtimes it's just frustrating.....

Respectfully
KG

Top
#305914 - 12/07/06 10:31 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: Meibukan003]
kgcobra320 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Hartford, CT, USA
Thank you very much Meibukan003

KG

Top
#305915 - 12/07/06 10:35 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
Meibukan003 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 100
Quote:

Thank you very much Meibukan003

KG




No problem!
_________________________
My Bo: http://www.meibukan003.110mb.com/

Top
#305916 - 12/07/06 10:50 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
This can be a very frustrating way to communicate clearly.

I believe styles share many techniques across the board.

Consider how different Goju is from TKD,yet they both have very similar movements. The interpretations are not watered down because of the style,generally,they are watered down by the lack of understanding by the instructor.

Blocks in TKD were explained to me as long range blocking of a punch or kick. In goju they were explained as locks,strikes, and throws from grappling range.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#305917 - 12/07/06 10:52 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I'm looking for reccomendations for really good kata and
general references for Goju-Ru karate, both books and DVD's
would be good.

Thank you,
KG





http://www.iainabernethy.com/

Check out this site.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#305918 - 12/07/06 11:34 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: BrianS]
kgcobra320 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Hartford, CT, USA
Quote:

This can be a very frustrating way to communicate clearly.

I believe styles share many techniques across the board.

Consider how different Goju is from TKD,yet they both have very similar movements. The interpretations are not watered down because of the style,generally,they are watered down by the lack of understanding by the instructor.

Blocks in TKD were explained to me as long range blocking of a punch or kick. In goju they were explained as locks,strikes, and throws from grappling range.




This is so true and yet I find so many MA unwilling to admit that there are more similarities than differences. The art of hand to hand combat has been around for a long, long time and the more researching I do, the more I find all the different styles to be the same. Yes there are differences but in my mind the fundamental concepts are all the same. The longer I train the more everything starts to meld together I don't see it as differences but more variations on common themes.

Iain's site is great, been registered for some time now.

KG

Top
#305919 - 01/03/07 12:12 AM Re: Goju Reference [Re: kgcobra320]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lost track of the thread... ok if you are just looking for ideas of possibilities, from the Goju side, I haven't really seen anything better that is publicly available other than Morio Higaonna's DVD's. keep in mind, he most likely demonstrates one thing on DVD, but what he teaches in person is probably quite different.

The tricky thing with Shotokan, from what I've seen (admitedly not much), seems 'corrupted' kata. and I know that sounds derrogitory and bashing, but theres just no other word.

There seem to be many lines of Okinawan Karate which went the 'competition route' ...that is, their movement in kata was altered for purposes other than application. again, this is just my limited impression - I know there are probably exceptions...there always are.

my point is, if you take a form thats been modified for kata performance in a tournament setting...over the span of a couple generations - THEN you take that form and try to force fit an application, you may not end up with something workable.

a simple example is with Heian Ni kata (renamed from Pinan Sho). in this kata, cat stance was changed to dropping the heel. then, it changed to a high standing 'back stance'...then a longer 'kokutsu dachi'...then an even further mutation.

neko ashi dachi:
http://www.gatame.com.br/link/tecnicas/kake.jpg

then dropped heel:
http://tkdtutor.com/10Patterns/PinanShodan/PinanShodanImages/PinanShodan2.gif

then later, 'back stance':
http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/roots_shotokan_2-2.jpg

then full blown kokutsu:
http://www.funakoshi.nl/bouw/content/images/kuchiwaza_wim.jpg

then...?...I don't know what to call it:
http://www.shotokankarate.ca/1Curtis%20Heian%20Nidan%203.jpg


the difference in this stance alone has changed so drastically, how could anyone expect to get back to it's older form? even more important than the change, is the probable reason for it's change - which I argue, wasn't a change for function - it was most likely a change for visual style.

now, why try and interpret kata thats been changed for visual style?

Top
#305920 - 01/03/07 10:21 PM Re: Goju Reference [Re: Ed_Morris]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

lost track of the thread... ok if you are just looking for ideas of possibilities, from the Goju side, I haven't really seen anything better that is publicly available other than Morio Higaonna's DVD's. keep in mind, he most likely demonstrates one thing on DVD, but what he teaches in person is probably quite different.

The tricky thing with Shotokan, from what I've seen (admitedly not much), seems 'corrupted' kata. and I know that sounds derrogitory and bashing, but theres just no other word.

There seem to be many lines of Okinawan Karate which went the 'competition route' ...that is, their movement in kata was altered for purposes other than application. again, this is just my limited impression - I know there are probably exceptions...there always are.

my point is, if you take a form thats been modified for kata performance in a tournament setting...over the span of a couple generations - THEN you take that form and try to force fit an application, you may not end up with something workable.

a simple example is with Heian Ni kata (renamed from Pinan Sho). in this kata, cat stance was changed to dropping the heel. then, it changed to a high standing 'back stance'...then a longer 'kokutsu dachi'...then an even further mutation.

neko ashi dachi:
http://www.gatame.com.br/link/tecnicas/kake.jpg

then dropped heel:
http://tkdtutor.com/10Patterns/PinanShodan/PinanShodanImages/PinanShodan2.gif

then later, 'back stance':
http://www.fightingarts.com/content02/graphics/roots_shotokan_2-2.jpg

then full blown kokutsu:
http://www.funakoshi.nl/bouw/content/images/kuchiwaza_wim.jpg

then...?...I don't know what to call it:
http://www.shotokankarate.ca/1Curtis%20Heian%20Nidan%203.jpg


the difference in this stance alone has changed so drastically, how could anyone expect to get back to it's older form? even more important than the change, is the probable reason for it's change - which I argue, wasn't a change for function - it was most likely a change for visual style.

now, why try and interpret kata thats been changed for visual style?




Exactly. That's why I always try to tell folks get to the genesis of it or at least as close a possible. Trying to interpret the moves in many gendai budo styles is fruitless. The stances, techniques, foot movement and much more are so dysmorphic and off-course that it really makes no sense to try and discern the modern kata'a original intent. The majority of karate types do not do or know the old forms, most especially the American style, Japanese style and Korean style karate-ka.

Does my supposed superiority complex make a little more sense now? If you want to learn how to paint like a realist you don't ask Picasso to teach you, regardless of his proficiency in abstract art. KnowhatImean?

Goju Ryu plays an extremely minor part in the Shotokan scheme of things. If you want to learn Goju Ryu go find a good Okinawan Goju Shinshi (Sensei). If you want to know where Funakoshi got most of his ideas for Shotokan from do a style Like Kobayashi Ryu or Mabuni Kenwa's Okinawan Shito Ryu. Goju and Shorin (Shito too) teach all-range fighting.

Hope this helps.

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