FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 29 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
futsaowingchun 1
Zombie Zero 1
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35591 Topics
432526 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#305665 - 12/07/06 08:33 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: student_of_life]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
SoL,

Thanks for your post-I was not saying you could not defend against a bo with bare hands and I agree with what you say about correct angles etc. The Jitte applications against a bo taught by the likes of Enoeda and descendants in the UK consisted of, for example striking horizontally at an incoming bo with both arms raised in the sequence of three stamping/crescent kick steps into kiba dachi ending in the first kiai. To me, these are an impractical application, with also no explanation of the high leg movements. Equally, the double grabs were often explained as catching a bo as it descends towards you, no suggestion of moving either side and helping it on its way to the place where you, the defender, just moved from. This is what I had in mind when I referred to broken hands.

B.

Top
#305666 - 12/07/06 09:41 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Barad,

I always stand to be corrected, but as I visualize Jitte as a bo form it doen't seem very 'bo' from my point of view. I of course can only rely on my practice, and stand to see something that can change my mind. But I have seen Isshinryu's bo (and practic it), Taira's, Akamine and Innoue's groups, as well as Yammani and Matayoshi bo. Not ot mention Chinese and Burmsese staff traditions.

It is against those contexts I base my opinion, but am always willing to see a reality that is different from what I understand.

I also don't practice kata for movement development (for example I don't practice jitte), as my tai chi study is to drop karate-ka not move slowly and prettly. But just because I don't do it doesn't mean it may not have a place.

I only theorize one answer. If my theory is correct you wno't get a better answer until you find someone whose spent several decades in such study. They may exist, but not in my framework.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#305667 - 12/07/06 10:05 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Victor,

I must have misunderstood your comment on energy/movement before.

Re Jitte as bo kata, I will try to find the original source, with photos if I can find them, and post a link. Without this, it is hard to explain convincingly how it might work. I am not 100% sold but equally I do not consider it totally implausible and it felt ok in practice without having to modify the kata to any great extent, unlike many of the IMHO stupid empty hand applications for Jitte that I have seen demonstrated over the years.

B

Top
#305668 - 12/07/06 10:14 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Barad,

I frequently discover there are more things under the martial roof than I had thought, and I am willing to be shown wrong.

I don't recall Jitte mentioned as a Bo kata, but perhaps some do it that way. I've seen many empty hand kata done with weapons, which I've seen always as individual practice.

While I've studied the Isshinryu kobudo for decades (and a bit more) I'm not impressed with kobudo for its original purposes, that of fighting with them. The world has turned away from those needs, bo sai kama tonfa for self defense.

What I find parallels older Chinese training, long, very long work with the weapons increases the empty hand potential of techniques, in effect advanced weight training for specific movements. I can show the parallels and see those uses as very valid for my long term students.

I have friends who practice all of the systems I've mentioned, but there is a limit to what anyone can do and I find my practices more than enough.

From my perspective if one wants kobudo the best answer is train directly in a kobudo group. Working it out on one's own might work, but it will take a very long time, imo.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#305669 - 12/07/06 04:40 PM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Victor Smith]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Victor,

In another post you wrote the following:
Quote:

What is the true past, listen very closely I'll give you something totally true. The founders of the current arts had no desire for you, or me or any of us to know the past. Except for the imperfection of oral transmission, they left no record so NOBODY has any idea of what the past was.

And the oral record, nobody can prove. It's simple they didnít care if YOU would know. They made it impossible for you to know and they succeeded.



I canít agree more. Some karate practitioners might be blessed with some tie to the past, but these are becoming ever so fleeting as the old masters die off.

Regarding any kata, we should treat them as a blank slate. We can do with them what we can. But we can never know if any idea was in the minds of the developer of the technique, or in the minds of the many that passed it down from generation to generation. Few, if any concepts have been passed down.

Regarding Jitte, we donít even know much about its origin. Of Itosuís students, only two passed it down, Funakoshi and Mabuni. Not Toyama, or Chibana, or Nakamura. I wouldnít be surprised if Funakoshi learned it from Azato and passed it on to Mabuni, the great collector of kata. I would surmise that Mabuniís has the more modern changes. His version does not include the interesting hand combinations in the opening movements, nor the three successive open hand techniques following the four big kiba dachi movements. (You can view both the Shotokan and Shito Ryu versions on youtube.)
Shotokan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAiAm0W-zgw
Shito Ryu - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTclr8vsY8k

Yearís ago, I read that Nakayama had said that Jitte was designed to defend against a bo. Now this made good sense to me since I couldn't see much in the way of practical empty hand application with some Jitte movements. I know a little of the history of the arts, and I have learned that the bo was widely used to carry things. A person would lay the bo naturally across the trapezius and shoulders, with pails, or bundles hanging from each end. The pails and bundles would hold water, fish, or rice, wood, or whatever. But the key point is that virtually everyone had a bo, and carried it often. For me that meant that an attacker with a bo was a very common threat.

We all practice this great art of karate. It was just inconceivable to me that the masters would have neglected this common threat and focused exclusively on empty hand vs. empty hand, and weapon against weapon. I believed there just had to be good ways to defend against a bo, hidden well within the kata. I uncovered many movements across many of the kata I practice. But for Jitte, I wanted to understand if the whole kata could be used.

I worked for a long time on a whole series of applications designed to intercept and strip the bo from the attacker. The more I worked on Jitte, the more sense it all made. From beginning to end, I can use any directional sequence, and most all of it makes great sense. I have a good friend in the arts that grew up on a farm, and as a result of milking goats as a boy, he has a remarkable grip. I had to do a lot of trial and error to learn how to break his strong grip on the bo.

Then a few years ago, I made a discovery that many of you might also have made. I began to realize that some movements in kata, which donít seem to me to have much in the way of good utility in empty hand application, work great when you are holding a weapon. So I looked to each of the Shorin Ryu kata that I practice, and worked to map a weapon to them. And I have had great success. I have found that some kata even map well to two or more weapons. My goal for this weapons training was not to develop new kobudo kata. Rather, I found that the weapons training srengthened my empty hand movements. The mass of a large bo, or of a sai, or tonfa, really help to increase speed and strength of a number of empty hand movements.

For Jitte, I worked to see how a bo could be used. I have made good progress here as well.

Now one cannot expect that the exact hand movement in a kata will map perfectly to both an empty hand application and a weapons application. What I have found is that the Jitte hand movements map extremely well to empty hand defense against a bo. But in order to have effective bo applications, some movements require some modifications. But it was really surprising to me just how little had to be changed to make the movements work well against common bo attacks.

On this forum, I have tried, probably in vain, to share some ideas on application. But I have found that it is very difficult to effectively explain in text all the variables that go into an effective combination. I read somewhere recently that Ohtsuka of Wado Ryu began writing a book, but decided it was impossible. He just couldnít explain the complexity and variability of a combination in text and pictures.

So while in in karate, a picture may not be worth quite a thousand words, a video certainly can be. So in the next few weeks, I will videotape my Jitte with the bo, with some applications, and also some Jitte empty hand against the bo, and put it up on youtube to share with the fightingarts community.

-Kakushite

Top
#305670 - 12/07/06 05:06 PM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: kakushiite]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
we used to practice empty-hand kata while holding chiishi...so maybe kata was designed as a hojo undo? Hey! I could write a book!

Top
#305671 - 12/08/06 04:55 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Victor,

I have to agree that kobudo for practical purposes is not worthwhile (we cannot carry a sai or bo in London, although there are a lot of guns and knives!) I do not practice kobudo at all these days, as I no longer train with the gentleman who taught it, who also taught karate (in separate classes, not as a hybrid art.) I only mentioned it as it was raised in the forum and, as I have said, I consider it a possibility.

Again I am dredging my memory until I can find time to seek the original information/theory but I think the point was that Jitte was itself a kobudo kata (not an adapted empty hand kata) that somehow ended up in the Shotokan system without an understanding of its original intent, like many kata. I seem to remember reading something similar about Chinte kata but I will research some more before expanding on that. It may of course be nonsense.

In any event, I can see the benefit of training heavy weapon movements if the parallel to some extent empty hand movements.

B.

Top
#305672 - 12/08/06 05:01 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: kakushiite]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Kakushiite,

Interesting to know that I am not the only one to have considered Jitte holding a bo (if I have understood you correctly). I look forward to seeing your photos of the kata showing defence and attack with a bo.

B.

Top
#305673 - 12/08/06 08:04 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Barad]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Barad,

You are not the only one to think that Jitte can be used holding a bo. Several years ago, 24fightingchickens.com had pictures of Elmer Schmeisser holding a bo in each of the Jitte postures. His argument that it was a hidden bo kata.

My study of the kata leads me to a different view, supporting Nakayama's claim, which I would imagine came from Funakoshi. (Where else would Nakayama have gotten it from?) I believe that fundamentally Jitte is an empty hand kata designed to defend against the bo. But miraculously, as with so many Shorin Ryu kata, it still works with a weapon, and in this case, the bo. To me this gives a yin-yang quality to the kata. Two complementary opposites (empty hand or with bo) providing a completeness. In this case, providing for defense against the bo whether you have one or not.

It is my view that the weapons part requires a fair amount of tweaking to make it work (to have useful applications against another bo, or perhaps sword). In contrast the empty hand applications work pretty much as they are found in the kata. As I noted in my earlier post, regarding what these movements were truly designed for, we can only guess. From the masters (at least in the Itosu line, and to some degree with Kyan's students as well) although we have received the kata, there has been remarkably little instruction handed down on how the movements were to be used. So we should expect that we all would come to different conclusions about how kata movements can be used.

Regarding Nakayama's claim, I find it rather unique. He didn't say that parts of the kata were to be used against a bo. He stated that the kata is for bo defense.

In his books, Nakayama published a lot of kata application. As I have discussed in other threads, I simply can't believe that this is what the masters had in mind when they designed the kata. IMHO, virtually all of it is based of poor fighting principles. But regarding Jitte, we have from Nakayama this kernel of information, almost certainly from Funakoshi, that the kata is for bo defense. In all of Funakoshi's writings (at least those available in English), there is no similar statement, especially one so full of information.

Regarding my videopost, I would do it sooner, but I need some time since I haven't worked the Jitte kata, nor the applications I developed, in years. So I have a bit of practice ahead before posting.

In another post I offered Student_of_Life video of some of my ideas, and he responded "ohhh its like christmas!!". So for Student_of_Life, Merry Christmas.

-Kakushite

Top
#305674 - 12/08/06 09:07 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: kakushiite]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
woot for HO HO!!!
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga