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#305655 - 12/06/06 08:22 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Dojostudent]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
For the opening move of Jitte, I tend to use it as a defense against a grab. It can be done either when when the guys grabbed you (Use one of Raul P's patent distraction techniques to facilitate this) or before the grab has got a hold.

For a left hand grab use the move as done in the kata, for a right hand grab simply reverse it.

Use right hand to come down on the inside of the grabbers elbow joint while pushing up at the wrist from the underside with your left. Keep contact with both your hands, push forward and follow the move of the kata. You'll find the guys arm falls into an arm lock over his own shoulder and he should be lying on the floor. Then like any good cooking recipe, beat as required.

Oh the fun of Bunkai!!
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#305656 - 12/06/06 08:53 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Dojostudent]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Try performing Jitte whilst holding a staff all the way through-you may see that it fits, sometimes in a slightly stylised way, bo strikes, thrusts and parries. My suspicion is that it is not an empty hand kata at all. It may help if you have studied some bo to learn the various overhead, up and side strikes. If you start the kata with the bo held upright in your right hand in yoi (ready) position, the opening slow movement may have you dropping the lead hand (left) holding the bottom third of the bo and the top hand (right) making an overhead strike as you step back. You then step at 45 degrees to the left and make an up strike with what looks ibn the kata like double palm heel, similar to the three towards the end of Enpi. Just my thoughts and very hard to explain without demonstrating face to face.

Fudo dachi appears mostly in Sochin, not at all in Hangetsu, which uses mostly Hangetsu dachi, IMHO a widened and impractical version of the excellent, groin protecting Sanchin dachi.

Barad

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#305657 - 12/06/06 09:18 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Barad]
Dojostudent Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 32
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts Near th...
hmmm i see, I was always told that in Hungetsu it was more like a fudo-dachi stance....interesting. Oh and yes I do have a lot of bo training so I can see the strikes you are talking about. It's weird to think about Jitte not being an open hand form, but using a bo instead, like in shochinikan (I don't know how to spell the bo form sorry). I never would have thought of that since I know Karate literally means Open Hand. Very interesting.....


Edited by Dojostudent (12/06/06 09:19 AM)
_________________________
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#305658 - 12/06/06 10:12 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Dojostudent]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Excellent-try it with a bo and let me know what you think.

Fudo is a deep cross between zenkutsu dachi and kiba dachi as I see it .

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#305659 - 12/06/06 01:10 PM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Dojostudent]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
On the high turning knee in Hangetsu, if it is of any help, in an earlier version of that kata that I also practice, Aragaki Seisan, there is just a turn into a low, quick front kick to knee level coupled with a strike upwards and then a hammer fist downwards (where you see a downwards backfist in Hangetsu after the turn). I suspect the big, dramatic turn in Hangetsu is just a Shotokanised, more athletic version of the earlier movement without any real significance for bunkai.

B.

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#305660 - 12/06/06 01:27 PM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: student_of_life]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
SoL,

I remember being taught by traditional Shotokan teachers that some of these movements in Jitte were for blocking and catching a bo. Then I trained in bo a bit under someone who specialised in kobudo and I was convinced that blocking and receiving a properly delivered bo strike would most likely break your arms and hands unless you happen to be able to wrestle it from someone without their actually striking, which seems unlikely and strength dependent. I prefer the admittedly unproven theory that Jitte is a bo kata itself all the way through.

B.

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#305661 - 12/06/06 01:33 PM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: JohnL]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
JohnL,

I like the non-bo interpretation of the double grab and knee raise. I have seen something similar before with a grab to the throat then twisting and it makes sense to me for empty hand.

It reminds me a little of the two handed grab and twists early in Bassai Sho, also interpreted by some as wrenching away a bo but, to me anyway, better as a grab to throat and groin and twist or alternatively as lock on an elbow from beneath whilst stretching out someone's arm.

B.

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#305662 - 12/06/06 03:07 PM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Barad]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
Barad,

thats kool too man. i was also taught by a kobudo man who told us that the most dangerous part of any blunt weapon is the last 20%, so while catching a bo with your bare hands is not the best option (commen sense really) it is A option.

and as for having your arms broken by blocking a bo with your bare hands....well if your standing dead on and taking on the intended angle of attack, then yes, yours ass is grass so to say. however many traditional okinawian styles were adapted to be used in defence against a weapon. (the debate of weather or not jitte is or isn't intended for this purpose is another thread) i have seen and preformed myself many a disarm of a bo being whiped around by big, big men. the key as in all fighting is use the right agles of approach. it is always dangerious, yes your right, but who's to say that if your timing is good then you can't get in on him and snuf out the attack befor it becomes a threat, just like stoping a kick really. kicks are powerfull and were taught not to block them head on, similar to a bo.

if your not comfortable with taking a bo from someone empty handed, thats fine and well. but, the bo is only a threat if its given time to build power, like any punch of kick, all it takes is timing.

yours in life
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#305663 - 12/06/06 08:21 PM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hangetsu's turn to the rear with a descending backfist and a descending toe technique, if you look at the kata sequence, it is a defense from a grap to your arm from the rear. You rise forward, pulling them foward so they intensify their pull back, then you enter with the turning motion, you hand slapping down to break the grab and your leg descending into their leg as a stomp.

The technique is found in Yang tai chi chaun, it is used in baguachang, the rising knee pointed toe kick can be found in the Matsumura Patsai.

There are other potentials but it's the simplest to describe this way.

As a general rule any 180 degree turn is likely a defense against an attack from the rear, in all kata.

On the other hand I really get a chuckle out of using Jitte as a bo kata. If that was done before a competent kobudo instructor their laughing might be why the bo was dropped. Sorry for the joke, but I think it's true, Jitte does not promote good bo technique.

Now the time Funakoshi received Jitte and added it to his Shotokan there are two logical answers as to why it is so, I can't think of words do describe it.

One either there were specific empty hand uses and they werent' shared with Funakoshi because he wasn't good enough, or by extension he didn't share the applications in Japan because the students weren't good enough,

OR, another thought is that the current Jitte was just the beginning Jitte study, and if you reached the advanced level of execution the basic study required, then the additional moves were addeed to make the kata more complete in your study.

I've actually trained in such a tradition, that only after years of hard work were the 'extra' movements shared.

Such a tradition isn't holding anything back, it's just using the tool till you're prepared for what follows.

If that was the case (this is somewhat within Demura's 'kakushite' traditions), Jitte could only be the opening study of Jitte technique.

The wonderful thing is the past didn't care if we ever got more, for if someone knowledgable wasn't there to answer the questions, they succeeded in keeping thier tradition close.

From my perspective, and I was shown how to perform Jitte, the form isn't in my tradition. I think it is worth practice as a difficult energy/movement development form and not worry about how it's applied. By the time you get to Jitte, you have enough technique to actually use, so focus on what it develops in long practice.

Ahh, the old secret, long, very long practice, and subsidiary training values.


Edited by Victor Smith (12/06/06 08:29 PM)
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#305664 - 12/07/06 08:26 AM Re: Shodokan Karate Form Applications? [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Victor,

I am familiar with the movement you describe, which I have seen shown as an application for Aragaki Seisan. hangetsu looks to me to have taken that movement but the very high knee lift was probably an affectation for Shotokan kata tournaments.

I am delighted that the thought of Jitte as a bo kata amused you-I do not think it is nearly as ludicrous as you imply but short of posting film of myself performing Jitte with a bo (I am too camera shy!) it is hard to explain in writing where the strikes etc might fit the movements. I do not think I am the first one to suggest Jitte might have this purpose, as I am sure some article or other planted the seed years ago.

Finally, I have to say that for me-just for me-to practice a form simply for movement development without considering its application is not something I would want to spend time on these days. You are of course correct that by the time most people learn Jitte, they will have many other tools.

B.

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