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#304273 - 12/16/06 06:28 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You make some interesting points Leo, but I dont see patterns as "essential". Sure there may be a few good techniques in there, but you dont need a pattern to learn them, or perform them.

One thing that no one has really touched upon is the student. The average student works a job or goes to school. The average student has a active social life. The average student comes in two, maybe three times a week to practice. My job is to make him "Above Average". I have little time per week, yet he may need the knowledge I have offerred as soon as he walks out the door. Since this is the case, do I teach him a pattern, with lots of angles and directions and movements, or do I teach him something a little more simple like a good jab? What can I do to help RIGHT NOW? When he leaves here, will his training serve him positively? If hes learning kata , I can assure you that the answer to the last question is no. At least for awhile. By that I mean beyond Blackbelt and maybe even longer than that. All too often you see Blackbelts get trashed. I think its because of wasted time, or kata. Its too much to place on a student, IMO. There are better things to do. Like finetuning, or working against resistance.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
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#304274 - 12/16/06 11:34 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Chen Zen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

You make some interesting points Leo, but I dont see patterns as "essential".




Actually nor do I. Which is what I've been trying to say in the past few posts. However, there is stuff which you can learn from them which isn't bullshido.

Edit: I can see that we're all actually in agreement on this subject, just taking it from different viewpoints. I'm still up for a sparring match if anyone's game though. Been ages since I had a decent sparring match with someone who could keep up with me. I suppose that's the primary drawback of returning to white belt again...


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/16/06 11:39 PM)

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#304275 - 12/17/06 12:25 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Happy Birthday TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I would probably classify forms training now adays, at least in TKD schools are Mcdojoism. It's always nice to see students working on forms, either practicing solo with great concentration, or syncronizrelaxing the class military style, it shows the schools develops discipline in it's students. In fact once the student has the form down and has been practcing it for a couple of months the instructor no longer has to keep an eagles eye out. They can take a break. It's not like they will need coaching every second, after all thats why they have a formalized form down, so that the student repeats it over and over the exact same way. Forms now seem to be more of a marketing play than teaching actual useful self defense.
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#304276 - 12/17/06 04:32 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


I would probably classify forms training now adays, at least in TKD schools are Mcdojoism... Forms now seem to be more of a marketing play than teaching actual useful self defense.




Couldn't disagree more Tek. Sure, some mcdojos teach forms. But some mcdojos do sparring, or do pad work. That does not mean that padwork or sparring are symtomatic of mcdojoism.

Brian wrote something at the beginning of this thread that I totally agree with: Forms are one way of refining techniques and self defense skills. You can do the same thing in other ways, like padwork, sparring etc. In the end, if you don't like doing them, don't do them. If you find them beneficial, which they can be, then carry on doing them: De gustibus non est disputandum.

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#304277 - 12/17/06 09:14 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Supremor]
Happy Birthday TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Supremor,

I agree, but unfortunatly if your in a TKD school you must learn forms for advancement in rank it's required. Hopefully by having these endless debates we can generate enough attention that it would have an impact on the MA community.

I once had a conversation with a grandmaster from a kenpo system. He inhereted the title when his father passed away. And although may tried to claim the title of grandmaster the majority of the kenpo comunity thought it was his by right because he was the son. This master told me that when his father taught kenpo he did not teach forms, only single techniques and self defense. My master did not orginally learn his father art, because he was given up for adoption he did not know his father until he was a grown man. HOwever, my master was taught an art which was an offshoot from his fathers. Later on in life my master got in touch with his biological father and trained in his family's art.

When I asked my master were did we get these forms he gave me a strange look, he did not answer me. When I asked him what is the difference between our art and the different styles of the other prominent grand masters. He told me what they do is not a real art. I asked him about our forms compared to theirs. He said their forms were not legit, because many of them had just put their one steps together and called them form 1,2 and so on. He said out forms were artful. Yet he never told me where he got them from or who created them. In fact one day I think he may have told me he created them himself, although I can't remember 100%. I know that my master was first a student of kajukenbo and our forms looked very similar to kajukenbo schools, except for the minor alterations here and there.

What I remember the most, was that he never analyzed the forms, out one steps and self defense drills and exercises were not the same as found in the forms. They were completely in a different sequence. I thought wow there is so much politics in this style, everylne is constantly trying to out die the other guy.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#304278 - 01/02/07 04:38 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Chen Zen]
Ads Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 37
I beleive the patterns in TKD have defenses against any technique you can think of...with devasting results. Chon-Ji starts with a knockout moving into the takedown(ready position - downblock) perhaps. These moves are there, you just have to look. Get hold of a pressure point map and try seeing where your movements could be directed.

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#304279 - 01/02/07 09:21 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Ads]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
That may be your interpetation, but it is clearly meant as a low block with the left outforearm. Of course, most blocks in Taekwon-Do are suppossed to hurt the attacker as well as protect the defender. But there is no takedown.

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#304280 - 01/03/07 04:10 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: ITFunity]
Ads Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 37
Thats just move 1 of pattern 1. It is of course down to my interpretation but if I can interpret these moves and they work then surely they are valid techniques.

Get someone to double grab your lepels and then start chon-ji, see what happens.

Ive also found a lot of neck break techniques, at least 1 in every pattern.

So I dont think there is anything missing except maybe, dare I say this, correct teaching?

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#304281 - 01/03/07 04:13 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Ads]
Ads Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 37
Also, the forearm breaks under about 40psi compared to the shin being around 65psi. Is anyone realistically going to try and stop a kick with a down block?

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#304282 - 01/03/07 05:35 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Ads]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ads -

While I agree with you about using down blocks, your bone-break figures sound a bit light to me. Check this:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15846079
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