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#304263 - 12/15/06 12:58 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Im not talking about punch,kick or knee or whatever ,the single stuff i mean ..a rising block or low block or all the 'weird' stuff thts meant to be something else.And how doing the whole pattern in that set way that we have to do can actualy help to free fight.

Drilling them isnt a thousand times isnt enough though.Doing them when someone is trying to rip your face of or knock you out is entirely different to doing them on a bag half or thin air.

No i wasnt trying to be offensive just pointing out that saying what you said would not help a martial artist who hears that and they would not do too well if they just let it come and hoped for the best.

I try to use experience during fights that are definite.I definitly know it works as i have proof.
Which is my problem now with the patterns...im having to trust things i dont understand and people who havnt actualy used it although it 'should' or 'might' work.
I will get destroyed.
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#304264 - 12/15/06 01:31 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
tkd_high_green,

I have trained my patterns under 5 separate instructors including one master at 5th Dan rank from South Korea and none of them have commented that I was doing my patterns wrong in any of the 14 years I trained TKD. Nor did any comment that I had poor form. I was approached by one of the head instructors from the Singapore TKD Federation and had him shake my hand after completing my first Dan grading.

My philosophy is to train patterns with fluidity. Hence, my patterns are always trained at sparring speed and without pausing during the pattern. I also used to perform patterns in the traditional way in the first 11 years of my training and I still did occasionally after my revelation.

I would perform patterns with sparring padding on 7 or 8 times. If you're tired after only 4 or 5 iterations, you should look into joining a circuit training class or maybe take up hill running. Strength endurance is important in TKD and is a prerequisite for sparring competitively. Try punching and kicking a heavy bag continuously for 10 minutes and you'll understand what I mean when I talk about strength endurance. Running up stairs is also great conditioning. I used to live in a 24 story condominium and would run up and down the emergency stairwell 2-3 times to train.

I don't really see the point in training endurance with patterns because there are many better ways of training endurance. We used to run around a basketball court 30 times with 10 pushups each round, a chair to jump over and a bar to duck under. Anyone who fell over the chair or touching the bar would restart. We did that in 35 degree temperatures on a concrete basketball court barefoot (your feet don't look nice after that). Now that's a conditioning routine.

Despite that, when I trained with a junior Korean sparring team, I was completely exhausted and could not even force myself to move. They train strength endurance way better than any other TKD group I've ever encountered.

Our balance drills involved standing on one foot for 10 minutes and throwing kicks. A regular drill was 50 roundhouse kicks above a high chair. I believe this training is beneficial because it has transferable effects, when I started breakdancing, I performed a straight handstand on my 5th try.

Sparring against someone who'll knock you out if you let your guard down has to be the number one conditioning training method though. Nothing motivates better than the threat of a concussion.

Patterns are good for some things but are not a panacea. They are simply a method of teaching and are often overrated. A good martial artist will have a well balanced training program incorporating strength (weightlifting), endurance (conditioning), balance (footwork), dexterity (focus mitts) and flexibility (stretching and warmup). Neglecting any of these will lead to poor performance.

I find patterns very restful and I find that they allow me to explore and contemplate applications.

By the way, I was always the worst student at my level in my class. My classmates were much better martial artists. However, I outlasted most of them as a martial artist. Don't take this as showing off, there are so many people better than me out there.

Matxtx,

Quote:

Im not talking about punch,kick or knee or whatever ,the single stuff i mean ..a rising block or low block or all the 'weird' stuff thts meant to be something else.And how doing the whole pattern in that set way that we have to do can actualy help to free fight.




It's not weird if you drill it regularly. No different from a punch or a kick. Tell anyone who trains Muay Thai or Jujutsu that it's weird and they'll look at you like you're the one who's weird.

Let me elabourate. A pattern is not valuable for its memorisation but for the techniques and transitions learned through training it. You will have less difficulty using the techniques found in patterns during a fight because you don't have to remember the pattern while you're fighting.

Quote:

Drilling them isnt a thousand times isnt enough though.Doing them when someone is trying to rip your face of or knock you out is entirely different to doing them on a bag half or thin air.




Why would I want to do a pattern in the middle of a fight? I never said I would want to do such a thing. What I said is that I could use techniques found in patterns effectively in a fight.

Quote:

No i wasnt trying to be offensive just pointing out that saying what you said would not help a martial artist who hears that and they would not do too well if they just let it come and hoped for the best.




Agreed, however, we aren't debating the practice of only training patterns. We're debating the practical value of training patterns. I would certainly not recommend learning only through patterns.

Quote:

I try to use experience during fights that are definite.I definitly know it works as i have proof.
Which is my problem now with the patterns...im having to trust things i dont understand and people who havnt actualy used it although it 'should' or 'might' work.
I will get destroyed.




Exactly, which is why you should train the techniques found in patterns against a resisting partner wherever possible. Who said you shouldn't train against resistance?

I'm sick of people thinking that there are no knees or elbows in TKD when they train, when those techniques are clearly there in TKD patterns, that's all.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/15/06 01:41 PM)
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#304265 - 12/15/06 02:08 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I cant explain too well what i mean.Sorry.Im even losing my train of thought on what im debating..lol....these things always go off down other roads.
Plus im talking Chang hon patterns not WTF type ones which more sport and sparring based as far as i know ..not sure.
You dont get me Leo and in doing it say things that i have to come back and explain about so im going to try and stop now.lol.Also you say things i know and im not dissagreeing with and then...oh its gets confusing.

By wierd i dont mean elbows knees..they are obviouse.Obviouse to any human that moves.
I mean 'wierd' as in...a low block is now a lock or all the other stuff...there so many thats just an example.I beleived..now im not sure.

Having to do patterns in set moves against thin air to pass grading and get acknowledgment and being told you can now defend yourself and fight by doing this or that amd being shown some 'hidden stuff' that is so deadly?..Im realy not sure about that.

This will sound offensive though its not meant to be or nasty.
You are writing so much thoery on it and lots sounds realy good and beleivable.And you train some of it.fair enough...yet you have even said you havnt been in a fight or used it.At very high intensity ..scary intensity....There is so so much of that.Unbeleilably too much.Dangerously too much.


Edited by matxtx (12/15/06 02:14 PM)

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#304266 - 12/15/06 02:59 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Sorry, Leo. I was being a bit sarcastic in my post. Too often, I see many students who just walk through the moves of their patterns, don't put any energy into their moves, who think just because they've memorized their pattern and can get through it, that they know all there is to know and that they are ready to move on to the next one. These students could go over their patterns all day and not break a sweat because they aren't putting any effort into what they are doing.

As for endurance, clearly not everyone is as physically fit as you are. Not that I claim to be physically fit myself, although I would definitely say I am significantly more athletic and fitter than most people my weight. I've already lost about a 100 lbs, and I realize I still have another 50 or so to go. In fact, I would say that a majority of the people starting in the martial arts and TKD are not physically fit when they start, but take the art because they want to get physically fit.

With other drills, there is often more time to recover, and depending on what you are working on, perhaps less time to work on whatever it is in your training.

Say for example you have an hour class and for the ease of math, 10 minutes is used for warmups. That leaves 50 minutes for the acutal class.

Class 1) Bag Work: If you say had a small class of 15 students and three standing bags available, that would mean 5 people per bag, or that you would get 1/5th of the time on the bag, so 10 minutes of training

Class 2) Partner Work: Any drill where you take turns performing techniques with a partner, paddle drills, one steps, etc. You will be training 50 percent of the time, or 25 minutes

or

Class 3) Patterns Class. Assuming that you have enough room for everyone to go at once, you could spend the entire 50 minutes working just going through your patterns.

In the amount of time training department alone, Patterns provide the most amount of continuous time training.

That doesn't mean that I feel we should just work on patterns, as there are other drills that are just as important at what they do and what they teach

Just a thought

Laura

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#304267 - 12/15/06 04:48 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: tkd_high_green]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

As for endurance, clearly not everyone is as physically fit as you are.




"Were" is the word unfortunately. I've lost a great deal of endurance since I stopped trekking and mountain climbing. Not quite as easy to find people who like trekking as I'd thought it would in this country.

Remember, I was the least fit person in my class at my belt level. The other guys and girls out-performed my endurance quite easily.

Getting fit is not as difficult as may people think it is. Just progress through gradual increases in difficulty. Before you know it, you can sprint 400 metres with padding on without gasping for air. Sure it's disconcerting when the lactic acid sinks in but it's only a case of pushing through that which is quite easy if you've got the self control.

When the Koreans talk about perseverance, self control and indomitable spirit they really mean it literally. I believe you can only see someone's true strength of heart when they are pushed near to their personal limits physically.

Of course, stop just before your limits so you don't go to failure. It's surprising how quickly these qualities can develop in a student and how much they change as they discover that indomitable spirit.

However, if patterns provide your class' strongest workout then this is a good focus for a lesson.

Matxtx:

Quote:

Plus im talking Chang hon patterns not WTF type ones which more sport and sparring based as far as i know ..not sure.




I actually doubt that they are much more or less "sporty". A pattern is a pattern really, just a collection of techniques put together with the intention of teaching a principle or two.

Quote:

By wierd i dont mean elbows knees..they are obviouse.Obviouse to any human that moves.
I mean 'wierd' as in...a low block is now a lock or all the other stuff...there so many thats just an example.I beleived..now im not sure.




You will notice that none of my techniques listed are "weird" as you put it. The reason is because these techniques are obvious and are of value. Techniques which appear "weird" like you mention are what I call "making something out of nothing". Meaning that those are not realistic applications. I have shown you that realistic, practical techniques do exist in patterns in TKD (in fact they're obvious) but are often ignored.

Quote:

Having to do patterns in set moves against thin air to pass grading and get acknowledgment and being told you can now defend yourself and fight by doing this or that amd being shown some 'hidden stuff' that is so deadly?..Im realy not sure about that.




Yep, I disagree with only teaching patterns too. The techniques in patterns should be used in sparring and in other training but they unfortunately most often aren't. There's nothing mystical hidden in patterns, except the symbolism behind the pattern. All of the techniques come from a martial art and are therefore probably of some value investigating and learning.

Quote:

This will sound offensive though its not meant to be or nasty.
You are writing so much thoery on it and lots sounds realy good and beleivable.And you train some of it.fair enough...yet you have even said you havnt been in a fight or used it.At very high intensity ..scary intensity....There is so so much of that.Unbeleilably too much.Dangerously too much.




Are you a fighter? If so, why? Did you fight in the past? Do you continue to?

Are you saying that because I haven't been in a fight that I don't know how to? Or that I don't realise what it's like?

I have competed against people far more skilled and probably far more effective at fighting than the average mugger on the street. I've been knocked out before and suffered concussions on other occasions. I know what adrenaline feels like to a certain extent. Maybe not as much as that of a life threatening experience but it's enough.

There's no way I can convince you of my experience on a forum. Nor is there any way you can prove that a knee or an elbow is an invalid technique in a fight.

You are confusing yourself. The techniques I suggest are used by fighters everywhere in MMA and other martial arts. I am only pointing out that these same techniques are in TKD. If you want to debate their effectiveness I suggest you do it on the MMA forum.

Having studied two martial arts, I also have the benefit of knowing a thing or two about what techniques exist as a cross over between martial arts.

Look, frankly, if you want to question my skill, capacity to answer your question, fighting ability or whatever, go ahead. There's no way you could tell whether anything I've said about myself is true or a lie anyway on this forum.

If I'm in the area around where you live anytime, I'll pop on by and spar with you if you want. Only full contact allowed, knock out or submission only to end a match ok? Minimal rules. As long as it's a friendly sparring match with a trained ref, I'm fine with it. Then we can see whether my opinion is valid to you.

I'd rather stick with my opinion that being a non-fighter is a better achievement as a martial artist than having hundreds of fights. If you're getting into fights, you've got something wrong. Besides, if I got into a fight I'd probably overreact and send someone to hospital. I've already done that by accident with some of my training partners. Best to keep away from all of that.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/15/06 05:40 PM)
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#304268 - 12/15/06 06:14 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Formalized patterns suck! We have to learnthe basics anyways prior to learning the patters, on top of that we practice the basics seperate from the patterns while holding a single stance. I think that if we had to use patterns as a teaching method that they should be impromtu at the students discretion . Leaving it up to the students imagination a sort of metitative exercise if you will, purely subjectible. Karate and TKD forms are not so fun anyways, adding a little of kenpo and kung fu flavor to the forms would be a great touch.

The single punch, block, and kick is stale. We need some rapid strikes along with simultaneous blocks or kicks. Something more fluid, perhaps make it a little more agile. Some of the new XMA forms look pretty nice, explosive movements like that would be good for self defense.

TKD is a self defense system, in my view the forms were created for self defense and not for fighting. Sparring was created to practice certain techniques but helps more for actual combat. The stuff after self defense.
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#304269 - 12/16/06 11:39 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I have learned quite well what my limits are. Unfortunately, I am anemic, so if I'm not careful, its actually very easy for me to pass out from too much exertion. I found out about a year ago, when I stopped being able to even make it through the warmups without getting very winded or dizzy. Now fortunately, I have that under control, but I still know the warning signs of when I need to sit down, whether I want to or not, and fortunately, I haven't had to sit out in quite a while. A few months ago, I would not have been able to make it through a class like we had the other night.

I personally find patterns to be one of the best part about TKD. I could do them all the time because there is always something I can improve on, and its one of the things I do the best at.

Laura

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#304270 - 12/16/06 12:37 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
''You are confusing yourself. The techniques I suggest are used by fighters everywhere in MMA and other martial arts. I am only pointing out that these same techniques are in TKD. If you want to debate their effectiveness I suggest you do it on the MMA forum.''

I dont know where that came from..im not saying anything like that.lol.
Stop putting things into my mouth.lol
You havnt shown me anything....slightly patronisiing again.
Like i say iv studied all this and im back to sqaure one.

The other thing is going abit internet ninja territory.
It was saying that just doing it and the patterns and it will come in a fight that worried me in an earlier post.
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#304271 - 12/16/06 01:56 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

''You are confusing yourself. The techniques I suggest are used by fighters everywhere in MMA and other martial arts. I am only pointing out that these same techniques are in TKD. If you want to debate their effectiveness I suggest you do it on the MMA forum.''

I dont know where that came from..im not saying anything like that.lol.
Stop putting things into my mouth.lol
You havnt shown me anything....slightly patronisiing again.
Like i say iv studied all this and im back to sqaure one.




What do you want me to show you? The only "hidden" techniques I know of in TKD patterns are MMA-like and can be trained in sparring. If you want to listen to what other people say about high blocks or low blocks being attacking techniques, that's up to you. However, if you actually read my post of the ten techniques, you would find that not one of them is an obscure technique they are ALL knees, elbows, hook punches, uppercuts, etc. I have no idea what you actually want to know. You mentioned you wanted to see practical techniques in patterns and I showed you them. I am forced to repeat myself; at NO time would I suggest ONLY training patterns. That's just inane imho (as I'm sure you'd agree), however neglecting pattern training is almost as narrow-minded.

Quote:

The other thing is going abit internet ninja territory.
It was saying that just doing it and the patterns and it will come in a fight that worried me in an earlier post.




I'm sorry, could you quote me as to where I said "that just doing it and the patterns and it will come in a fight" please. I have no recollection of ever saying that.

As a matter of fact, I'll just quote myself to prove my point:
Quote:

Very good point. That's why we don't train only patterns. I drill all of those techniques I mentioned previously because they are brutal.



Quote:

Very good point. Why bother with the patterns? Well I for one don't. However, neglecting the value of the techniques "hidden" (LOL) in them is foolish.



Quote:

I presume you've got past the stage where you can transition perfectly from one technique to another without standing still at any point so the value of patterns is lessened for you.



Quote:


Plus, when all else fails, patterns are good for making sure that students cover and consistently drill every technique required of them in the syllabus. How many people have you met who could pull of Koryo on their first try? It takes numerous practices to get it right. In that time you've done each technique a few hundred times.



Quote:


Why would I have to remember a string of techniques (basically akin to a dance) in the middle of a fight? How does this indicate my lack of "real" fighting experience? Do you try to remember patterns or sequences during your fights? I frankly have more important things to worry about when my life is on the line.



Quote:

Yep, I disagree with only teaching patterns too. The techniques in patterns should be used in sparring and in other training but they unfortunately most often aren't.




I appreciate it when people actually listen. Listening is a valuable skill when it comes to human interaction and can lead to the solution of a lot of disputes. You've clearly got your mind set in a one-track mode and you're trying to convince everyone else that you're right by bombarding them with the same points over and over. I don't understand why you even say
Quote:

id love someone answer the question and show me though no one can.And not do it in mystical this and that blah blah.


when you clearly don't want an answer. This discussion has become like hitting my head against a brick wall, I'm out.

Edit: Oh yeah, internet ninjas often promise they'll go for a full contact round NHB with another forum member who lives in the same country. Give me some time to sort my schedule out before you request a sparring match ok? I already pointed out how you can't tell whether I'm skilled or not from the forum. The only way to find out is to see it in person right? Besides, as long as it's all in good fun as a friendly sparring match, there's nothing wrong with it. We could even post a video for inspection by the forum. Maybe we could get other members of the forum involved and make a newer FA.com tournament out of it... Plenty of qualified people to handle the organisation in the UK. Ah, but I'm probably just getting my hopes up. Hmm, if I can make time to come down to England, I might ask Cord if I can come visit his gym in Cambridge...


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/16/06 02:13 PM)
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#304272 - 12/16/06 05:55 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Bloody hell this has got heated hehe.Its only a forum.
I hate these threads where people pull qoutes and stuff its like dealing with lawyers.

''I don't think of patterns as hard. They're actually really easy. Just a string of basic techniques one after another. The hard part is remembering them but that'll never be a problem in a fight.''

That is the thing you said that makes me go ''woa''.And i apologise i didnt mean to insult its just that it made realise you hadnt been in reality,pure unadulterated scary crazy reality with all the commemts and things you know.Dont take it the wrong way please.It just i then know its all just thoery your saying.Everything sounds good and is written good yet is untested for you to have the right to put it out and say that is it and write in a manner so confident and so 'this IS the answer'.
And that was what i said was missing from patterns in my first thread.No one knows for sure.

My point was meant to be that i dont thing doing patterns in their set ways in a specific order is usefull to me anymore.And that no one actually knows why anyone is doing them like that anymore.

The individual things in them i can see and i think is what you meant by THE LIST 'arrrrrrrrrrrrrr' .........
Thats not what im going on about.I think me saying 'weird' was taken wrong.
Wierd i meant by pull back arms and big movements with chambers and things like that.

Now, i thought that was all pulling and off balenceing and chambers could be parrys and all that malarky thats is bandied about and i was into it....now im not sure again as iv not seen footage or anyone do it against someone trying to rip your face off or knock you out.
Also the thing of twor more moves in a patterns being one thing.As there are so many variations you can make of two or more moves in all the patterns that its imposible to train them all well,,,it would take years and years years...and then pull them out of your head in split second fight/self defence situations.
Its where im at in my training and id like answers thats all.Proof.
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