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#304253 - 12/13/06 10:59 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: BulldogTKD]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Ok, forms are an important part of Martial Arts as a teaching and learning tool because the practice helps develop:

1) Focus - if preformed with bunkai in mind and the all below points.

2) Power - if hand foot timing are correct.

3) Speed through muscle memory.

4) Balance- through maintaining the proper center.

5) Coordination through practiced movements.

6) Proper Breath Control while kicking, punching, striking, blocking, sweeping, throwing, moving and also in taking a kick, punch, strike, block, sweep or throw.

7) Conditioning the mind, body, and spirit!

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#304254 - 12/13/06 11:08 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: BulldogTKD]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Definitely! If trained correctly...
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(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#304255 - 12/13/06 12:33 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

You sound like me brian! Good Stuff!




and look like you too.
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#304256 - 12/13/06 01:59 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This is the thing...this is what winds me up..id love someone answer the question and show me though no one can.




I wrote a whole book on the subject

I get ya point though..


Stuart

Ps. I know it wasnt aimed at me (I think!)
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#304257 - 12/13/06 06:38 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I know some of whats been said and im reminded again of other things.
Good points.
Though it still is lots of theory and i bet hardly anyone who posts have used it for real or actualy train it hardcore against resisting people.
Its seems so specialist and that you have to be so so damm good at patterns.Now i know fighting is hard,definitly,though its so so hard applying patterns at full throttle.Then in the same breath self defence is talked of as having to be simple.

Im going to the bare bones.Im in front of someone he attacks...in that moment how the hell do i say ''now i do the 14 and 15 move out of that pattern'' to myself and do it?

Its like im being asked to fit what i know,the patterns,into the fight before i know whats going to happen.

If its all about single moves from the patterns why not get rid of patterns and teach just the moves?
Im just sharing thoughts of were im at and the frustration of learning.
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#304258 - 12/13/06 07:07 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Though it still is lots of theory and i bet hardly anyone who posts have used it for real or actualy train it hardcore against resisting people.




You'd be surprised. As I said, one of those techniques is my favourite combo on the heavy bag. I've used a few of the kicking combos in sparring. I wouldn't shy away from backfisting someone to the base of their skull if they were threatening my life just because the technique is from a pattern.

Quote:

Its seems so specialist and that you have to be so so damm good at patterns.Now i know fighting is hard,definitly,though its so so hard applying patterns at full throttle.Then in the same breath self defence is talked of as having to be simple.




I don't think of patterns as hard. They're actually really easy. Just a string of basic techniques one after another. The hard part is remembering them but that'll never be a problem in a fight.

Quote:

Im going to the bare bones.Im in front of someone he attacks...in that moment how the hell do i say ''now i do the 14 and 15 move out of that pattern'' to myself and do it?




Very good point. That's why we don't train only patterns. I drill all of those techniques I mentioned previously because they are brutal.

Quote:

Its like im being asked to fit what i know,the patterns,into the fight before i know whats going to happen.




How do you know that a punch will be useful in a fight? Those techniques are no less useful. Try not to think of patterns as a dance and start thinking of them as individual techniques.

Quote:

If its all about single moves from the patterns why not get rid of patterns and teach just the moves?
Im just sharing thoughts of were im at and the frustration of learning.




Very good point. Why bother with the patterns? Well I for one don't. However, neglecting the value of the techniques "hidden" (LOL) in them is foolish.

Furthermore, patterns can teach how to transition from one technique to another which, for a beginner, is an important skill to master. I presume you've got past the stage where you can transition perfectly from one technique to another without standing still at any point so the value of patterns is lessened for you.

Plus, when all else fails, patterns are good for making sure that students cover and consistently drill every technique required of them in the syllabus. How many people have you met who could pull of Koryo on their first try? It takes numerous practices to get it right. In that time you've done each technique a few hundred times.

For an organisation as big as TKD, this kind of assurance is actually pretty good. For my standards, it's rubbish.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/13/06 07:09 PM)
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#304259 - 12/14/06 09:55 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
matxtx,

Your patterns are not the problem. The applications you are learning for them is the problem.

Time for you to do some research!!
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#304260 - 12/14/06 06:23 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Leo_E_49]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
''I don't think of patterns as hard. They're actually really easy. Just a string of basic techniques one after another. The hard part is remembering them but that'll never be a problem in a fight.''

That sentence ,im affraid makes we wonder.I dont know if i believe you..sorry.
It sounds likes someone who has never had a fight..eek.sorry.

Im researching..this is it ..lol..i have been for ages.
And being told '' go and research....its the applications that the problem'' is whats i mean by mystical no straight forward answers.

Some answers i feel patronised by..thats the word i think.Patronising.Im not totaly inexperienced with it...thats what patterms can seem to be and the people who say they 'know'..there attitude can be like that.

I think ill keep an eye it on and just make my own way best i can.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#304261 - 12/14/06 07:20 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
What? You're saying you'd forget a punch, kick or a knee in a fight? I'd say if drilling them thousands of time is not good enough for you, there's something wrong with the way you're training.

Why would I have to remember a string of techniques (basically akin to a dance) in the middle of a fight? How does this indicate my lack of "real" fighting experience? Do you try to remember patterns or sequences during your fights? I frankly have more important things to worry about when my life is on the line.

I have never been in a fight you're correct and I'm proud of it. Few people can make such a claim. However, don't think I've not had my life threatened nor have I put myself in stupid dangerous situations. Thing is, I got myself back out of them without even raising a fist.

Furthermore, a lot of the "classic Muay Thai" techniques are right there in our TKD patterns if only people would pay attention to them. Clinch, knee to the solar plexus; elbow to the temple; grappling techniques. You name it. It's not hidden it's right there in plain view. I don't see why people don't just train the stuff for its practical applications.

Sorry if I come off as patronising. It's a result of all the arrogance stored up inside me.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/14/06 07:26 PM)
_________________________
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#304262 - 12/15/06 10:27 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:

I don't think of patterns as hard. They're actually really easy




Then you aren't doing them right.

I agree, memorizing a pattern is pretty easy. For me, one of the easiest things for me to do, but learning to do the pattern right, is very difficult if not impossible.

Those nights we work on patterns are some of the hardest nights we have. If you do each move realistically, throwing everything you have into each move, they are in of themselves a fantastic workout. If done right, you should be sweating by the time you've finished your first pattern, if not your third. Do each pattern 4 or 5 times and you should be exhausted.

We had a patterns class last night. If someone messed up, forgot a move, etc, we all had do do it again. By the time we got to the blue belt patterns, I was really having to fight my exhaustion. By the time we finished, I was ready to pass out. All told, I would say I must have performed in excess of 40 patterns, and I am tired and sore today.

Improving your physical fitness, balance, timing, and technique are all good enough reasons to keep working patterns. Yes there are other drills out there that work individual techniques, perhaps better as far as self defense is concerned, but I don't know of a single other drill that works the body as much and covers as many techniques at once as patterns do. Other drills take each of the individual components in a pattern and focus on specifics, applications, variations. I can't say which is better or worse, but I'm definitely a proponent for patterns if for no other reason than it gives me a fantastic workout, and helps me to improve my balance.

Laura

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