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#304243 - 12/09/06 06:25 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Im found forms helpfull in the beginning as they helped me understand my body and how to get power and technique and its a way the instructor can see you move and correct you.Also introdcing me to techniques i wouldnt have thought of.
Now though i feel i want to be free,and creat my own things to do or do whatever i have to at that time..not pre set moves that i have to try so so hard to make fit.

Im thinking thats its like when people learn an instrument they use other peoples songs and learn chords and scales and notes and then after a while go on to create their own songs.Or should if they want to progress.

I dont see how me doing a pattern in front of people can say im capable of defending myself or telling others to.And hence get me belts.
Its just too confusing haha.
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#304244 - 12/09/06 07:57 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
You guys have it all wrong! Haven't you learned anything!!!

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#304245 - 12/09/06 08:48 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Tek,

Why do you think kata or forms were made? I believe it was for the purpose of passing down information. It showed the techniques,the angles, and directions,the mechanics and movements, and vital and pressure points.
They WERE NOT for fighting multiple opponents,or on rice paddies, or with your back against a wall,etc... AND people were not shown a new form every stinking month. Wouldn't anyone be confused?
We do not need forms to pass on information any longer we have mass media and video.
Why continue to practice forms? I just like them. There are other ways to accomplish the same thing though.
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#304246 - 12/11/06 09:50 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: BrianS]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

or with your back against a wall,etc...




Except for Po-Eun

The rest is a good argument and one I agree with

Stuart
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#304247 - 12/12/06 02:36 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: BulldogTKD]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
What do we have wrong?..Tell us...please!

This is the thing...this is what winds me up..id love someone answer the question and show me though no one can.And not do it in mystical this and that blah blah.
I just want to be better at TKD and fighting,which is self defence as fighting back is self defence.
Patterns just are not cutting it at the minute for me.
And I have studied hard on them throughout my learning.

No one should just come in and say''oh you have it wrong you dont get it etc'' and not say or show something.Thatsd what everyones done for blooming years

I think sometimes people just hear it of others and it seems good so pass it on witout actualy questioning it and proving it.
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#304248 - 12/12/06 08:36 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You sound like me brian! Good Stuff!
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#304249 - 12/12/06 08:41 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: BrianS]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Why do you think kata or forms were made? I believe it was for the purpose of passing down information. It showed the techniques,the angles, and directions,the mechanics and movements, and vital and pressure points.




Actually, in TKD, forms are much more aesthetic than other MA founded before the 20th century, although they do contain applications. This is a result of their being more recently developed in post-world-war-2 society. There is a lot of symbolism in TKD forms, and I've found this is quite common in Korean MA.

Quote:


This is the thing...this is what winds me up..id love someone answer the question and show me though no one can.And not do it in mystical this and that blah blah.




Oh you want practical do you? I've got plenty of that. I even posted a lengthy thread on this but it was lost when the forum went down months ago. It was a long discussion with butterflypalm about the applications of patterns in the Taegeuks in WTF TKD based on a mini-thesis I'd been writing.

I suppose I'll repeat it, I hope it gets stickied this time around. *Hint hint* (I hate rewriting this all the time, I've done it twice now) I'll do it in point form so it's easier to write.

The early forms are simply combinations of punches, blocks, stances and kicks for beginners to practice but the later patterns contain some interesting applications.

Refer to http://www.natkd.com/taeguek.htm diagrams for technique numbers.

Applications:
1. Movements 2 and 4 in Taegeuk Oh Jang are obviously hammer strikes to the forehead, an uncommon technique in TKD so worth mentioning.
2. Movements 16b and 18b in Taegeuk Oh Jang are MT style clinches followed by elbows to the temple.
3. Movements 9 to 10 and 11 to 12 in Taegeuk Oh Jang are elbow joint dislocation techniques, involving hyperextending the elbow by impact. (Practicality questionable but I wouldn't want to have my punch intercepted like that)
4. Movements 2 and 4 in Taegeuk Sa Jang are curious and I interpret them as strikes to the throat after parrying a punch, however, they might be intended for kicks instead.
5. Movements 7, 8, 9 and 10 in Taegeuk Chil Jang are collar grabs followed by backfists to the base of the skull.
6. Movement 11 in Taegeuk Chil Jang is a double handed hammerfist to the temple.
7. Movements 14 to 16 and 17 to 19 in Taegeuk Chil Jang are MT style clinches into knees thrown at the floating rib.
8. I have never quite figured out techniques 12a to 13b but I suspect they have a good application.
9. Movements 5 and 7 in Taegeuk Pal Jang are clearly collar grabs into uppercuts.
10. Movements 20 to 21b and 23 to 24b form one of my favourite heavy bag combos. This is a clinch, elbow to temple, backfist to temple and finally push away the opponent's forehead and a cross punch to the throat (best modified as a two knuckle punch). Absolutely marvelous combo and a good workout too and one of the primary reasons I don't disregard TKD techniques in my training.

There are more but they're subtle and come more from drills from TKD, rather than patterns. And don't even get me started on Koryo, that'll take me 5 years at least to analyse properly.

Taken this way, WTF TKD patterns are filled with brutal techniques. I got taught all of these. Now I wonder why most people don't seem to know about them? I suppose I had good instruction when I was a little kid huh?

TKD as I was taught it is quite different to how most people get taught TKD. I wonder if many self defense oriented TKD schools can claim to have trained techniques such as those above and still call it TKD? Well it's justifiable because it is. The problem is that most people think of TKD forms like some kind of dance and don't even try to assess what is really going on because we're told by our federations what each pattern means. Well I say they are wrong and because I no longer am a member of the WTF, I can jolly well say what I like.

Quote:

No one should just come in and say''oh you have it wrong you dont get it etc'' and not say or show something.Thatsd what everyones done for blooming years

I think sometimes people just hear it of others and it seems good so pass it on witout actualy questioning it and proving it.




YES! That's the attitude! I want to see more people with this mindset in TKD. It will do you a world of good to question what is taught to you. Look at what I learned by doing so, sure it took me 14 years but it was worth it.

By the way, most people do patterns far too slow, pausing in between techniques for effect. This is ineffective training for fighting. Patterns should flow from technique to technique like a Kung Fu form (but faster and more efficient than most), believe it or not. Sure you can start out slow but train with the aim of flowing from technique to technique and let your stances become transient. Static stances begone, they do not exist in a fight; not if a fighter wants to survive anyway. Anything else is showmanship and not worth being called MA.

P.S. For all you Karate folk, if TKD is derived from Karate and has techniques like these and adapted to our relatively "peaceful" modern world, your Kata applications should be quite something to behold.

P.P.S. Just goes to show that you don't have to be a "master" (LOL) to see the obvious applications of techniques when they're right there under your nose.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/12/06 09:29 PM)
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#304250 - 12/13/06 01:07 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Whats missing in TKD forms?

from a spectator's POV, I'd answer 'application'. or perhaps more accurately: 'intent'.

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#304251 - 12/13/06 08:45 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

or perhaps more accurately: 'intent'.




That's the word I've been looking for all these years. Back where I trained, we trained with different intent from most TKD schools. It's not TKD which is a sloppy, tippy-tappy mess, it's the students of TKD who do not have the proper mindset and intent in sparring which give it that image.
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#304252 - 12/13/06 09:00 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

What do we have wrong?..Tell us...please!

This is the thing...this is what winds me up..id love someone answer the question and show me though no one can.And not do it in mystical this and that blah blah.
I just want to be better at TKD and fighting,which is self defence as fighting back is self defence.
Patterns just are not cutting it at the minute for me.
And I have studied hard on them throughout my learning.

No one should just come in and say''oh you have it wrong you dont get it etc'' and not say or show something.Thatsd what everyones done for blooming years

I think sometimes people just hear it of others and it seems good so pass it on witout actualy questioning it and proving it.



Try a search for my posts. This is another topic that just keeps comming back and the answers are always the same.

If forms are not your thing don't do them! If the Martial Arts and triditions are not your thing, try kick boxing or better yet cardio kick boxing! There is nothing mystical about my response just do a search on this subject.

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