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#304233 - 12/03/06 08:55 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: IRKguy]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Lots of guys everywhere who are very good at fighting who don't know any kata at all.

Something eles I would like ot add that is missing from forms training is "realness" The forms and applications are often to formalized. The lack of resistance and spontenuity.

Spontenuity can be solved with sparring, but resistance should be included durring self defense applications.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#304234 - 12/03/06 09:06 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
moo
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#304235 - 12/03/06 12:28 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: BrianS]
mbac640 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 52
Quote:

If you look deep within each movement and put in the time to research and compare you could have realistic self defense applications to practice.




I have to second this. It's easy to get into the mindset of learning forms by rote and doing the movements without understanding what's happening. I think I was about 2 years in before the master, on a whim, had me do Taegeuk Sah-jang and stopped me at the first-movement and asked me what was happening there.

I didn't really know. The master asked me to attack him and used that exact sequence against me to show what it meant. I was dumbfounded. These forms communicate so much information, and I can see why he waited years before exposing this added dimension: you have to learn so much before you can even begin to understand how little you really know.
_________________________
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#304236 - 12/03/06 04:40 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: mbac640]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
But why not just learn the application instead of the form? After all the application is what you are trying to learn. The applications in forms are rarely in the exact same sequence as the forms, and always there must be some sort of alteration to the application in order to make techniques that seem to be in the sequence of forms applicable when used against an opponenent.

For instance many times a form has you in a solid stance blocking. Okay that is the formalized way, but in order to apply that particular sequence into application against an opponent you must most of the time change the stance all together. Why? Because the best way to avoid an attack is with triangulation. Using the angles to side step and evade the attacks altogether, using your blocks are your secondary (back ups) incase your footwork was not fast enough.

So I ask again, would it not be better to practice just the applications? After all practicing would greater benefit you in the future because it is how tey will be used in application, instead o practicing the "forms" in which you must alter either the sequence or the tecnique, just to make the application work.

This is how jujutsu, hapkido, most judo and "real based" self defense systems practice for self defense and fighting.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#304237 - 12/03/06 06:34 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well I don't know. The practice of patterns is to me, an essential part of the Chang Hon Art. It is a SD Art form. However, if one wants to train just SD, I think there are numerous ways to accomplish that, many of which would IMHO be better that TKD.

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#304238 - 12/03/06 10:51 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: ITFunity]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I see patterns as a way to learn individual techniques. These techniques can be interpreted and varied and modified in many ways for different application. In many ways, it is the alphabet of the art, or a mental pack of flash cards.

Say for instance a particular pattern calls for a turning kick. The instructions may call for a midsection kick at a 45 degree angle. In class, I take that basic kick I learned in my pattern and learn the many different variations on that kick. Different striking tools, angles, heights, adding in different footwork, jumping, spinning, combinations etc. Frankly no pattern could effectively communicate every variation on a turning kick.

Laura

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#304239 - 12/03/06 11:53 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

But why not just learn the application instead of the form?





Tek,

You have asked this many times for a while now and the answer is still the same. YOU don't have to learn the forms or train in that manner if you do not wish to.

I'll bet you will have a hard time finding someone to teach that way though.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#304240 - 12/04/06 06:48 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
mbac640 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/20/06
Posts: 52
Quote:

But why not just learn the application instead of the form?




Because forms make you look cool!

They're a contained packet of knowledge that get passed down and diffused through various interpretations. They tell a story. They're easy to teach. Students from different schools can come together and compare their styles and learn.

What's to hate about them? I can understood if they were the *sole* vehicle for teaching someone the art form, but I've never seen that done (which isn't to say that it doesn't happen).
_________________________
1st Dan * NYC * Jackson Heights

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#304241 - 12/05/06 01:09 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: mbac640]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Mmmm im in a thoughfull period i think and im starting to doubt patterns again.I did at first,then got all the real application malarky although im doubting again,like full circle,im still not realy satisfied.
It seems erm..weird..lol.To have to do the patterns in certain ways is ok for tradition though not for pure outright fighting.Its like trying to make things fit something before you know what will happend.
The only thing i can see taking from them is it gives you ideas of what techniques you can do.Though you cant use them in pattern sequence..even just two moves because its a lottery of will happen in a situation.

So whats missing?..No one actually knows for sure whats going on with patterns.


Edited by matxtx (12/05/06 01:26 PM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#304242 - 12/05/06 10:28 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
matxtxxtxtxtxt

Thank you for your honesty, I too go back and forth when forms are concerned. I am under the impression that whoever started this whole forms idea, had a good reason for doing it. And those that created extra forms also had a good reason for doing it. Along either they forgot to pass on that reason, who perhaps someone didn't like the reason and chose to forget it, but now it seems forms are up for interpretation rather than being for what they were originally created for. It just seems that every tom, [censored] and Harry can come up wit a new system of MA or a new style just by altering the forms, or claiming this is what forms are for.

There are certain schools, that have taken their one/three step sparring exercises and have combined them into one long form. This has beeen my experience with some kenpo schools I have visted. I didn't find the practice of forms so useless here because the forms could be broken up to deal with an opponenet from either side. Unlike the current traditional forms, which only parts can be used and usually the forms themselves must be altered in order to be applicabale in real self defense situation. An example would be things like if the hand is open or closed fist, another exaple wold be the actual stance that your in. Sometimes the form has you in a hourse stance or front stance. Well it is most beneficial not to be in the way of an attack. Meaning you would use triangular footwork in order to dodge the attacks. Rather than just a back stance or front stance.

Like you I am still on the fence about forms. Although having already achieved the rank of black belt forms are no longer a arge portion of my training.

Although in some arts, forms become the main focus as you progress to higher ranks.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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