FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 50 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
AndyLA 3
Matakiant 3
futsaowingchun 2
Zombie Zero 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
Martial News
by Matakiant
Today at 06:42 AM
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
Martial News
by Matakiant
Today at 06:42 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/19/14 09:05 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
09/18/14 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
09/18/14 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35576 Topics
432496 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#304223 - 11/29/06 02:39 AM Whats missing in TKD forms?
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Putting aside all the arguments about forms and their aplications and usefulness. The bottom line if you practice TKD chances are you must do forms. Having had the oppertunity to practice other styles I have been exposed to different methods and patterns of forms.

My question for you is, is there some element missing in forms?

I was thinking of my kenpo training and how it so much resembled jeet kune do and filipino MA. I started thinking that in my kenpo forms, we often had movements that involved both our upper and lower limbs, for instance, I could be throwing a straight punch and a low ront kick to someones knees simltaneously. I have not found an example of this in TKD forms.

I've also begun to look through all my archives of different martial art forms. There are some styles that practice forms a little faster than others. I guess this varies by school and instructor.

Shaolin kenpo is a multiple open and closedfist strikig style which places great emphasis on rapid striking. This is something eles that I do not see in TKD forms.

Ofcourse I cant ignore the obvious that kenpo itself being the first american MA and having branches that are virtually new arts compared muh of the other oriental arts. The american forms for kenpo tend to be very fast paced. However, not unlike many chinese style forms found in chuan fa.

So I guess after all this babbling, I've notice there is no simultaneous striking with the hand and feet and lack of hand speed and multiple hand strikes.

But looking at the WTF black belt forms, there seems to be more cohesion between the limbs.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#304224 - 11/29/06 03:51 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
I did TKD for about three years before going to Okinawan Karate, and my take is that there are two types of TKD forms. One type is essentially a Shotokan form, which means it is an American misinterpretation of a Korean misinterpretation of a Japanese misinterpretation of an Okinawan kata, which was probably Chinese to begin with. The funny thing is, these have nothing to do with the way TKD people really fight, which is just as well, since the forms are pretty mangled by the time they reach you.

The other type of kata are the WTF (WTF?) kata, starting with the Taegeuks. Those are closer to to the way TKD people fight, but they are very recent, and there are a lot of them. They were made for competition and should not be expected to be as deep as some of the other forms out there.

So what you should do is pick up a couple McCarthy books, look into the history of the kata you have learned, and learn how much the kata can teach you if you are willing to get a bit fuzzy on the presentation version of the form. There are some excellent kata in TKD that include simultaneous stiking, complex timing, tricky footwork, trapping, grappling, and even point striking. However, you have to be willing to go beyond what is commonly taught in the dojang. I didn't get it until I did the same kata in a different style.

Try to watch Shotokan people do your kata. Then watch Okinawan Shorinryu and Gojo Ryu people do the same kata. Watch a few Kung Fu classes, an Aikido class or two, and some Tai Chi. Watch people doing Arnis or Kendo and watch the hands and feet instead of the weapon. You will see the same movements doing different things time and again.

There is nothing missing. The trick is finding it. The problem I have seen with many TKD schools is that there are so many forms that you are not given time to really learn the kata.

Top
#304225 - 11/29/06 08:29 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: IRKguy]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Id say footwork is up there at the top of the list. Followed by defensive structure.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
#304226 - 11/29/06 09:25 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Footwork?

I agree with the previous poster about the forms being mangled,but none of has the true answer except for ourselves.

Forms are just a learning tool and will be what you make them.
If they are fancy with alot of jumping and screaming then that's all they will be.
If your interpretations are for fighting multiple opponents that do not simultaneously attack then that's what it will be.
If you look deep within each movement and put in the time to research and compare you could have realistic self defense applications to practice.
It's all what you personally make of it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#304227 - 11/29/06 09:29 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Good question! You have me thinking.

First of all in the Chang Hon ITF Tuls, commonly referred to as the ChonJi forms, there are numerous hands & feet strikes performed at the same time.

For instance, in every pattern that you are asked to execute a side piercing kick, you must execute a high punch at the same time, unless given other specific direction/instruction. As an example, WonHyo, YulGok, ChungGun & ChungMu all have side piercing kicks & high punch combinations. The pattern HwaRang contains a side piercing kick as well. However, the specifics instructions call for kicking to D, while pulling the hands to C in a releasing motion. These are only the 9 color belt patterns. There are several more examples of this in the 15 BB Tuls as well.

There are also times when the feet are used after the hands are deployed, when you are to maintain the previous hand position. This however, does not quite fall into your scenario. There are also numerous twin & double movements as well, in addition to the combination & consecutive kicking.

These Tuls do however have slow, regular, fast, continuous & connecting motions. In other words they do have movements that are to be performed in fast & faster than fast motion. Continuous motion is to have less pause in between the movements, than fast. Connecting motion is designed to have the 2 movemnts done without any pause, connected to 1 another.

The biggest flaw would be that this Tuls contain only 2 movements out of 970 total steps in all 24 Tuls, that are performed on the ground. That is no where near enough. In addition, there are no, not 1 throw or fall at all.

As a side note, we no longer call them forms, as someone can have good FORM, but they can do the forms bad or incorrectly. Therefore the Korean term Hyung, for forms is no longer used either. We call them patterns & Tuls in Korean. So someone can have good overall form, but can be preforming their patterns incorrectly or with bad form.

Top
#304228 - 11/29/06 01:26 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I personaly think its in the applications you do that it counts.
So you take what you like and if you want to do simultaniouse things then do them when doind self defence or what ever you do with them.
I dont think in a real situation you will get the chance .I would rather do clean hard single shots after each other than two together.
As for speed then some will be fast.Those who have the technique good will be faster.
Plus iv seen lots happen in the chamber...some stop...some slow down...some do loads of things with thier arms..drop them or whatever.....some go straight through moving only what you need to do.They will be faster than others who do other things.And when you start using things for other things then the way you do a technique changes.For example using a chamber to parry or grab.
Thats where personal interpretaion of the techniue comes in as in TKD there seems to be lots of ways to do one thing..lol.

From the research i have done and training and talking with others..reading wise words etc...I think that doing patterns in the proper diagram agaisnt thin air is only one quarter or even less of pattern training.
The rest will use scrappier and less perfect versions of the proper patterns.

So the only thing missing is how far our imaginatons and thinking can go and if we stay too 'in the box'
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

Top
#304229 - 11/29/06 01:51 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Some thought went into many of your posts.

Quote:

Quoted by ITFunit:
As a side note, we no longer call them forms, as someone can have good FORM, but they can do the forms bad or incorrectly. Therefore the Korean term Hyung, for forms is no longer used either. We call them patterns & Tuls in Korean. So someone can have good overall form, but can be preforming their patterns incorrectly or with bad form.




This is exactly how we refer to them as well; patterns and not forms. Good explanation.

I really don't have much more to add. From my limited 4+ years doing patterns I seem to always find something else later as I learn our techniques and then can relate them to the patterns. I however have not seen in the Taegeuks anything that would translate to "grappling" as some people refer to however in our one-steps I can translate some techniques we use that could be used in grappling such as when getting into sweeps and armlocks.

My understand of patterns are limited as I've said. I would much prefer to practice the actual techniques without doing the patterns however I also understand they are a tool. Instead of the repetition of the technique you can make it flow with others in a pre-arranged pattern that the more you do it you "should" understand when one technique can move into another so that you can make things flow. It is sort of like when training punching ... when in close after turtling you left hook, right hook the body and work your way up to the head, throw in punch from your power hand down the middle and then another hook to the head. It is all about flowing from one technique to the other instead of being stuck on jab ... jab ... jab ... Its combining and doing combinations and letting things flow; that is what makes patterns useful ... again if that is what you get out of them.

Are they missing anything? I couldn't really answer that. You can continually add to them or just make up another pattern. The Taegeuks overall together seem to have most of the techniques needed in a self defense training system with maybe the exception of ground skills ... though I'm sure there are people that will ssstttrrreeetttccchhh it to encompass this though I don't see it myself.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
#304230 - 11/29/06 02:16 PM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Dereck]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
This might not be very helpful, but in my opinion what lacks most in the forms/poomses/patterns/hyungs is an understanding of what they are for!!

I know that sounds obvious, but if you look at Karate for a second, and see the amount of knowledge that exists regarding kata and bunkai, and the amount of expertise that exist within these areas of karate... well, TKD know how is relatively light on the ground regarding this.

Iain Abernethy is a regular visitor to Ireland. Spoke to a Wado sensei who said that Mr Abernethy teaches appliacation to various arts, not just Wado Ryu Karate.

I asked the sensei if he would teach applications to someone who studied ITF TKD, as their hyungs are based on Shotokan kata. He said Mr Abernethy would have no problem doing this, as he teaches application of kata to Shotokan people all the time.

Iain Abernethy is coming over Saturday week. Was invited to the seminar, but I declined. I only remember Chon Ji and Dan Gun from my TKD. If only I knew a few more I would've went along!!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#304231 - 11/30/06 07:21 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: Prizewriter]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This might not be very helpful, but in my opinion what lacks most in the forms/poomses/patterns/hyungs is an understanding of what they are for!!




This is something I totally agree with, and until you start to understand their role better, even if you know applications they are of no use except for learning something *interesting*.

Quote:

I know that sounds obvious, but if you look at Karate for a second, and see the amount of knowledge that exists regarding kata and bunkai, and the amount of expertise that exist within these areas of karate... well, TKD know how is relatively light on the ground regarding this.



Not that light anymore

Quote:

Iain Abernethy is coming over Saturday week. Was invited to the seminar, but I declined. I only remember Chon Ji and Dan Gun from my TKD. If only I knew a few more I would've went along!!



Oooo, you should have gone, Iains stuff is excellant.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#304232 - 12/03/06 03:41 AM Re: Whats missing in TKD forms? [Re: StuartA]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
I agree. I've read some of Abernathy's stuff. For application, he would be excellent. I mentioned McCarthy because his applications are studied in a historical context. When he goes through the application of a kata, he goes back to the Okinawan equivalent and from that to the Chinese equivalent. It is bunkai heavily researched.

Researched or not, good bunkai is good bunkai, and Abernathy is good. I was just saying how to make it yourself. If you don't have an Abernathy or a McCarthy nearby, watch artist in other styles until you pick up other applications for the same moves. Then take those moves and make them work in two man or four man drills.

I would say, though, that one of the main problems in TKD is that there are just too many kata. Ther's a ShoulinDo dojo near my school that claims to teach nearly 100 forms. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that. If you get it, one form is enought. I remember learning in TKD three or more per belt. In the system I am studying now, there are eight open hand kata and eight weapons kata in the whole system. Properly learning the first eight is the kyu curriculum. It's expected to take three to six years. Expecting someone to really master more than that is pretty ambitious and encourages pattern learning over form learning. According to the folklore, Choki Motobu knew one kata, the shortest one in Karate, and he is a legend for his fighting skills.

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga