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#303985 - 11/28/06 08:41 AM A Different Punching Problem
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
I'll do one-two and one-two-three combos on the bag and I've noticed that I'm hitting with my middle two knuckles instead of the first two. I forgot to ask my instructor, but is there anything I can do or do I just need to work on technique.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#303986 - 11/28/06 08:42 AM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Lorton, VA
Adjust fire.

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#303987 - 11/28/06 10:11 AM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I would say that if it's not hurting you, there is no problem. Do you work the bag with gloves or not? I have found that when I work no-gloves, I have to be very careful about hitting with the first and second knuckles. I bruise the third one pretty easy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#303988 - 11/28/06 10:44 AM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: MattJ]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
I use no gloves when i practice them, nor do my wrists hurt from the work; I think it may be because I keep my wrist tight and maybe also because I don't punch perfectly horizontal. The thing is when I first start punching, I'ts with the first two, but after a few seconds, it drifts to the middle two. An extra question to throw into the mix, should my punches be perfectly horizontal, or turned slightly?
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#303989 - 11/28/06 11:04 AM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello

Are you hooking the combinations? Punching upward? I agree with Matt probably not a ~major problem~ just an interesting mystery...

Jeff

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#303990 - 11/28/06 11:08 AM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: Ronin1966]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
All straight punches, with an occasional hook.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#303991 - 11/28/06 11:21 AM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Lorton, VA
A question: When you punch, are you punching the centerline of the bag, or slightly to either side?

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#303992 - 11/28/06 12:00 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: Zombie Zero]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
As close to the middle as I can, but some shots inevitably go to the side a little.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#303993 - 11/28/06 12:03 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

An extra question to throw into the mix, should my punches be perfectly horizontal, or turned slightly?




If it's not painful, and effective, it doesn't really matter. I use verticals to the nose because they fit the target better, but you can use horizontals, too.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#303994 - 11/28/06 12:12 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
olga Offline
TKOlga
TKOlga

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 174
Loc: northern virginia
I'd say keep working on your technique until every punch is the same, with the first two knuckles. When you adjust your wrist to punch with only them, the knuckles will align with the bone in your forearm, thus reinforcing the punch and making it stronger. Plus they protrude more than any other knuckles and will deliver more pain to your opponent.

AND, you always want to make sure that when you are doing repetitions of the same technique, each one of them is the same as the last. You want to be able to rely on your technique.

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#303995 - 11/28/06 12:24 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Lorton, VA
Quote:

As close to the middle as I can, but some shots inevitably go to the side a little.




I like to punch just outside of the centerline. Two reasons are:

1: If I'm going to punch someone, I'm not going to go for the dead center of their face or body, but the jaw/ribs. This is intertwined with reason 2.

2: Punching just off center helps align your knuckles properly. Hold your fists straight out in front of you, shoulder width apart. Look at which knuckles naturally stick out most. Now, bring your fists together, on your centerline. Now which knuckles are furthest out?

In my opinion, punching just off centerline (left hand to left side of bag, right to right) is a more effective technique.

That's my $0.02

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#303996 - 11/29/06 07:51 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I prefer the "3/4-twist" punch. But there's more to it than simply stoping your fist @ 45 degrees. Try this:

Make a verticle fist & hold it strait in front of you (like you're shooting a pistol).

Angle your fist downward (as if you're aiming the pistol @ your ebemy's belt).

Now rotate the fist 45 degrees & you'll notice your index finger's knuckle @ the top (kinda like the peek of a mountain).

Two things are happening here: 1) You're turning your fist to a more efficient position that allows for greated support from the forearm & 2) The tipping action done quickly is really a "Snap" - the very thing needed to produce impact.

Good for Jab & Gyaku-tsuki (Rev. punch).

The reason you're gradually drifting from #1&2 to #2&3 is because as you get into the punching & the power of it (major muscle groups), you're losing sight of the snapping or alignment action (small muscle groups). The trick is to slow down from time to time (now that you know you're doing it) to check & re-check - correcting yourself along the way.

I believe that it's not a problem as long as you subscribe to the "brute force" or Neanderthal school of fighting skills (also known as Wallup-ryu) but if you want to develop muscle meemory for best body mechanics & keep it into old age, learn to punch correctly now.

owari

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#303997 - 11/30/06 11:56 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: hedkikr]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Just as a point of information, the 3/4 twist punch was designed to fit into the cavity below the rib cage... i.e., you're punching into the cavity instead of the ribs. Conversely, if you punch the "wrong side", the punch breaks the floating rib, with a high possibility of driving it through the liver or lung.

It's rolled slightly forward and down for penetration and focusing "point application" of force to the hitting surface. If you don't hit with the first two knuckles, you might as well hit "flat fisted", and while it will hurt, it doesn't do nearly the damage of a focused "two knuckle punch"... just in case anybody is interested.

In spite of George Dillman's shortcomings, he has an excellent graphic of this in one of his books, and it's done correctly... so if you can follow the pictures, you can develop something that is truly designed to do the damage it advertises.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#303998 - 12/01/06 01:02 AM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
Does your system use a vertical or horizontal punch, thrusting or snapping? If you're doing horizontal thrust punching, that might be your problem. The twisting, horizontal punch is great for really drilling in the one-punch kill, but it was not made for jabbing, as you would do with combinations.

Your problem might be mixing TKD and boxing techniques. It takes experience in both to make that work.

A jap snaps out at about a 45 degree angle. The middle knuckle hits first, the index second--a differnce of a microsecond, but you can see it in a soft target. It doesn't matter too much because it's just a setup. It should not hit hard enough to break your knuckle.

Your cross should be the real punch, and it can hit with the two knuckles if you want it to. If you're a horizontal puncher, it should. If you're vertical, you use from one to four knuckles depending on the target.

Vertical punches get strange. There's hitting with the top two knuckles and there's hitting with the bottom three. It depends on what you are hitting and how wide you want to distribute the impact, depending on the hardness of what you are hitting. Also, there is the use of the wrist in close-range punches. The one inch punch is traditionally done with the bottom two knuckles, though it can be done with any hand position if your stance is right.

If you're doing horizontal punches, your problem is that the were pretty much designed for centerline punching. That is why you have backfists, uppercuts, and every manner of strikind other angles.

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#303999 - 12/01/06 02:02 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: IRKguy]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
In self defense, we're taught to use it vertically IF we punch, it's preferred that we palm strike. In the forms, we puch vertical. My instructer was a pro kickboxer and olympic athelete, so I have confidence in the technique I'm learning. I'm doing bag work mostly to practice for sparring, so I'm throwing a bunch of jabs, with a cross here and there. I would like to bag work a cross punch because I'm not good at it and I don't think I do it correctly either.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#304000 - 12/04/06 06:01 PM Re: A Different Punching Problem [Re: stormbringer]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
A couple of things to mention. Some have already been pointed out. If using a 3/4 turn on your fist, the hand fits into the space formed by the ribs at the bottom of the sternum. It is easy to break off the xyphoid process and cause damage this way.

Second, the only knuckle that can actually be lined up with the bones of the wrist and arm is the first one. This is the strongest setup and is unlikely to be damaged. All of the other knuckles will not line up straight and the long bone of the hand in line with that knuckle can be pushed back into the hand.

Finally, regarding the twist of the hand, I have a little experiment for everyone. Walk up to a wal and put your fist out as if doing a chest level punch. With your wrist straight (as I believe it is in all styles), see how much turn you need to touch only your first knuckle to the wall. Once you have done that (anatomically, it should be about 3/4). Now, move your fist up the wall and keep only the first knuckle touching while keeping a straight wrist. What happens? You should find that the wrist has to rotate the thumb up to keep only the first knuckle in contact while maintaining a straight wrist. By the time you are over your head height, you will begin to turn your fist upside-down.

People always looked at me strange in the cadavre dissection lab. But then again, no one else was making dead people punch and block
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Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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