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#303133 - 11/22/06 02:46 PM Striking the arm in the clinch
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Karate has many strikes to points on the arm. In Matsubayashi as I know it there is a lot of striking your opponent's arm while in the clinch to open him up for follow up attacks rather than prolonged wrestling. Does anyone else utilize these methods?

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#303134 - 11/22/06 03:02 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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In AKK, most of the striking is done to the head or body. Very few techniques that hit the arms or hands. Assuming a close clinch, though.
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#303135 - 11/22/06 03:11 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
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Its a concept explorered in our 2nd level bare fist sparring very acknowlegeable we always come back to this level even after BB, its part of reality training. In these matches if you don't use foot work at 3rd kyu - BB two or three strikes your arms are near useless as defense. You can strike but its hard to block or raise your guard. I don't know why maybe a mind thing.

In gloves it works a little, better with elbows but not as effective as bare fist. Really not striking merdians in combo thats dangerous, just numbing the arms and never forgeting this feeling.

The Guard is not used as something to hide behind unless theres nothing else left, the same with hard blocking, unless striking with it.

My approach is simple could you explain yours.
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#303136 - 11/22/06 03:36 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Saisho Offline
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Registered: 06/26/06
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Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Seeing as how we come from much of the same background, it is safe to say that I understand what you are saying about the strikes in Matsubayashi-Ryu. Having also trained in FMA and Silat, where arm strikes are abundant, I take it a little further. I will start by striking the hand itself and work my way up the arm. In FMA it is called "defanging the snake". If you can strike the hand, it is less like the person will be able to make a fist. If you can strike the bicep, the person will be less able to retract the hand leaving it out for you to apply locks and breaks.
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#303137 - 11/22/06 03:54 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Neko456]
medulanet Offline
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Its not that complex really. When standing and wrestling for position using either a distraction or lock like and overhook/whizzer kata teaches us to strike into the arm to either open up more offensive strikes, or multiply the effect of follow up strikes. Especially because people tend to be less defensive when it comes to their arms rather than their face. And like you mentioned it isn't really all that hard to incapacitiate a person's arm for at least a short while to open up you own offence. Naihanchi is a good kata for this. It contains a great deal of striking/attacking an opponent's arms and legs while in the clinch to open up opportunities to attack and put him down as quickly as possible. Which is one of the main objectives of Shorin Ryu considering Naihanchi is the foundation and contains all of its principles.

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#303138 - 11/22/06 03:59 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Neko456]
CVV Offline
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Striking with elbow or hammerfist or shuto on LI10 (forearm). Striking SI10 on top of the arm at connection with chest.(shuto or seiken or keikoken). Strikig the biceps or if possible SI8 although I rather push my thumb into that area. Inner wrist with downward or cicular hammerfist (strike close to opponents thumb or little finger). Attacking just above the elbow joint with upward teisho while pushing down the forearm (but carefull in training as this can easaly cause serious damage).
Also like to thumb lock or finger lock when attacking the arms or hands. Also put weight on top of opponents wrist and lock it towards your own body while dropping the weight.
But not always easy to execute.When you try to make some room to give your technique some power, you easely get smacked in the face.
Goju ryu kururunfa suparinpei shishoshin sepai seiunchin and saifa kata have specific techniques attacking the arms, either numb or break limbs or dislocate.
Also teach to block trying to hurt the attacking limb, not just deflect. But when training arms and legs in kitae kotei, you get a bit used to the pain and seems to have lesser effect. Although got heel kick on my forearm this week on LI10. The effect was numb for a few minutes.

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#303139 - 11/22/06 04:16 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: CVV]
medulanet Offline
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I personally abandoned the specific presure points a while ago. I generally strike where muscles seperate, joints bend, or don't bend. Anywhere there is a groove on the body I am generally able to cause pain to my opponent/partner. As far as creating space that can be done rather safely if you have proper positioning and are controling your opponent's limbs, including the head. The overhook, single/double head tie, and underhook usually work well for this. These techniques are found all around the world in almost every method of fighting. Secondly distraction is good for a set up, either with a strike or unbalancing. In addition if you have a good overhook in the clinch you can usually expose the proper area of the arm to strike and your opponent is more worried about how to get away than hitting you. And by that time you have already hit them. In addition the method of power generation in Naihanchi is specifically designed to develop power waza in the clinch range without much space.

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#303140 - 11/22/06 04:33 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
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The only way to deal with the clinch is to know the clinch. Same with ground-fighting. The way to "beat" ground-fighting is to be able to fight on the ground.

Pressure points??!? Not going to do the trick.



-John

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#303141 - 11/22/06 05:29 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
im told an old Okinawan saying goes something like,

break what is nearest........

I train accordingly and as such hard blocking, striking of limbs, finger grabs, stamping of legs, insteps, ankles all are part of what I do.

When we practise our tegumi you really begin to see targets open up according to your position, we allow ourselves to tap the target to let each other know were open when standup wrestling.

Just part of kumite though and not the major study.
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#303142 - 11/22/06 05:51 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Good question.

Expecting to strike an arm that whizzing past or toward you is asking a lot. Also, an unsecured arm will simply be struck away. Best to secure the hand or attack a grabbing hand/arm thus preventing it from moving away.

Gloved hands don't work & that includes fists. Use of a small weapon (1st knuckle of a finger) is best.

I have a saying (because MA-ists are well-mannered): "Take what they give you"..that can be an opening or a limb that can be struck or twisted.

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#303143 - 11/22/06 06:00 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Definitely, thats what I am talking about. Options a fighter has from the clinch as well as the okinawan perspective. Just as Grecko Roman wrestlers have a different take on it than Thai boxers, okinawan karate has their own take as well. However, there are certain skills that remain the same across disciplines. Since I wrestled in high school at the same time I studied karate I was able to use my knowledge of wrestling and apply it to my karate techniques. Just like the BJJ groundfighting perspective is different from that of a wrestler, there are certain basics that remain the same. However, each fighter brings their own unique strengths and weaknesses to the game.

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#303144 - 11/22/06 06:49 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: hedkikr]
Saisho Offline
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Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

Expecting to strike an arm that whizzing past or toward you is asking a lot




Striking someones fist when they throw a jab is easier than a lot of people think. However, even if a person has very fast hands and throws a punch, provided you can get out of the way (and we have to assume somehow you can or it is almost pointless to talk about anything but you hitting the ground), you should still be able to strike the attacker's bicep or tricep (it isn't moving as fast or as far). Even if you do not follow up with somekind of arm technique, the attacker will not throw as fast the next time.
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#303145 - 11/22/06 07:10 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
shoshinkan Offline
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im not so sure about this, a big hook maybee but a fast jab? sounds a very well timed technique combined with very hot footwork.

anyhow I do have a nice technique, for against a 'commited' jab, from a boxers (or similair) guard as the jab comes fire your rear hand through with the intention of hitting the hand straight on with your elbow, launched by the hip.

works very well when it lands but be carefull in practise, you can seriously 'prang' their wrist (unless they have been working the maki eh).

You also dont 'offer' yourself and remained covered, with good structure
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#303146 - 11/22/06 07:23 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: shoshinkan]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

anyhow I do have a nice technique, for against a 'commited' jab, from a boxers (or similair) guard as the jab comes fire your rear hand through with the intention of hitting the hand straight on with your elbow, launched by the hip.




That is exactly the technique I am referring to. However, in addition to the elbow, use your lead hand to parry (it doesn't have to be a perfect parry) and bring it to your elbow. I tell my students this. It is not terribly difficult to parry a jab and it isn't hard to touch your elbow. If you parry the jab and guide it to your elbow you can hit it almost all of the time and do major damage to the hand and wrist.

We keep the elbow stationary when we practice. I have seen too many injured hands.
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#303147 - 11/22/06 07:34 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
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Loc: UK
I misread the begining of your post and focused on the striking of the upper arm aspect. yes of course the lead hand is a good way to set it up right, and also deflect it 'into' the elbow.

Im sure you work the elbow 'drop' onto a sloppy roundkick to the ribs as well then watch them hobble.

Im also using the bullwhip style kicks into the shins more and more these days, excellent technique for distrupting balance and composure to set up.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#303148 - 11/22/06 08:54 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Sounds like you guys are referring to elbow destructions, a basic defense found in many forms of fighting and is commonly seen okinawan karate. I personally like to use such strategies to get inside on my opponent. But I personally don't like to use strikes to arms as a main defense if I am not already clinched with my opponent in some way. Not that it can't be done, but in my opinion it is not as high percentage a technique.

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#303149 - 11/22/06 08:55 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
From my perspective everything about an opponent is a target of opportunity.

The power of the arms is most frequently on the end where striking occurs.

Unless the opponent has undergone extreme arm conditioning for one or two decades, there arms are legitimate targets for karate kata technique.

While I don't work on the Heian Shodan/Pinan NiDan a simple example is the descending hammerfist strike that kata utilizes. Just drop the hammerfist across their strking arm, and watch that arm drop when struck.

The larger answer is more layered, but the sides of arms receive pain really well, they feel it!

There are even uses of kata technique to make sure the strike to the arm never misses, but that's another topic.

pleasantly,
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#303150 - 11/22/06 10:14 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Yes, they are often called elbow destructions, or "guntings" in FMA. I use them in two situations. First, when a person is throwing out jabs to judge the distance and "prepare" for a big strike. It is a prime opportunity to smash the hand and "ladder" up to the body. The other time is when they do commit to the big strike. I will throw a chudan uke and follow it up with the other elbow.
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Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#303151 - 11/23/06 01:56 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Quote:

The only way to deal with the clinch is to know the clinch. Same with ground-fighting. The way to "beat" ground-fighting is to be able to fight on the ground.

Pressure points??!? Not going to do the trick.



-John




I was about to say this but you got to it like I know you would have.

First off, it is toooo hard to try to pin point any kind of pressure point on the arm during an exchange moreless in the clinch the arms are pretty tense and the effects of the hits there will not be worth the effort.

Secondly, if you are going to hit PP than look for the ones with the wider surface areas like the inner and outer gate which are commonly attacked by the MT guys.

Lastly, PP is one of those things to show off to new students and give you something else to get your knowledge in but there are still a few that has lasting effects if struck properly. Study which ones are worth keeping IMO.

Brandon
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#303152 - 11/23/06 02:18 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Eveal]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Again, I personally don't do the pressure point thing, but rather strike larger areas I know will cause the result I desire. But do you actually think that "tensing" your arm will help REDUCE the pain and eliminate the reaction my strike causes? And why are people you have trained with so "tense" when working in the clinch? You have to understand that the purpose of striking the arms in the clinch is to elicite a specific reaction, the pain is just icing on the cake.

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#303153 - 11/23/06 02:44 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'"tensing" your arm will help REDUCE the pain and eliminate the reaction my strike causes?'

Personally I accept that there are always factors that will reduce our effectivness and yes muscle tension is one of them (Its the bodys armour), along with the big brothers of adrenaline and mental aggresion/determination.

It is absolute common knowlegde that people 'pumped up' mentally can do some rather extreme things and not feel it, add alcohol/drugs into it and maybee a slice of lunacy and the picture just gets worse. people are surprisingly resiliant.

Now of course this doesnt make it 'impossible' to defend ourselves but these factors do have a significant place in any self defense training,

I find in our standup wrestling often muscle tension comes in and yes strikes are less effective to the limbs at this point, still can do the business but not as easily, more skill and ability needed.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#303154 - 11/23/06 07:23 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
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When your tense you can't move. Tense up in a clinch and your structure can be broken instantly, your centre taken and you'll be flying into the happy land of Smashed-limpness-on-the-floor-ville. The moment you tense in a clinch (or anywhere else for that matter) you become static and rigid. Static rigid things snap. Tensing when getting hit is a hard on hard... Any Goju guys agree with this? When two hards things meet the harder of the two wins and the weaker of the two pays the bill. When you're soft you absorb and redirect energy, when you're tense you just take it like a proverbial female dog!

As for hitting the arms in the clinch.... hmmm... Your going to remove your grip from a guy whose got a damn good grip on you to smash their arms??? Head or balls maybe a better option, but striking the arm? Nice dojo technique IMHO.
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#303155 - 11/23/06 11:37 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yes im with you on this Gavin, shizentai (natural) structure is our core practise but when standup wrestling with a bit of bite muscle tension happens, just how it is.

Of course the idea is the more skillful we get the less tension is used, but this process takes a while of practice.

You know what happens when adrenalin and fear combine, tension. Not ideal but it is reality for many people, to different degrees.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#303156 - 11/23/06 11:49 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Its like everything else. It takes the proper set up. You don't just hit em in the arm and they go down. You needs some sort of distraction. It is also something that is usually available at the engagement or disengagement stage of clinch work. Usually your just about chest to chest in the clinch and certain strikes are just unavailable. However, as a person grabs you it is a very good technique. You lock in one of the grabbing arms and distract at the same time with a strike to the face or a flick to the eyes. Or you could break their balance with a leg tech. Thats all the time you should need, unless you are slow as molasses. My question to the nay sayers is have you ever tried it? Or are you just theorizing. Have you ever heard of a two on one. It works standing and on the ground. It works in wrestling and when an opponent is allowed to strike. The goal is control. The same principles, except this is using striking and reflex reactions of pain the body's natural reaction to the strike to control rather than pure wrestling. Remember, if you don't get the desired effect you can easily go right back to the two on one and go for an arm drag or straight into a body lock because you are moving to that side and getting a good angle for good position as you strike.

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#303157 - 11/23/06 11:55 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes Sho, but that excess adrenaline tension is bad, not good. Your previous statement made it sound good like sense you were tensed you were suddenly immune to strikes. Ever had someone give you a frog on the arm as a kid. Someone askes you to make a muscle and then punches you as hard as they can and it hurst, a lot, and causes a big welt to suddenly rise. You can't do that when you are relaxed and it doesn't hurt nearly as much. Hell, even kids know these basics. Shorin guys do to. That's why we never take to Naha stuff. For me it just doesn't accomplish what I need.

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#303158 - 11/23/06 12:08 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Gavin Offline
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Having gone into a clinch a fair few times for real in a professional environment I can tell you for nothing that when it hits the fan you won't stand a bat in hells chance of pulling a punch to the arm of a clinched opponent. Thai Boxer's and MMA'ers have probably the best clinch game there is and how often you see them strike the arms? Have you tried these theories out on someone going full guns at you?

Jim - We've been playing around quite a bit with the adrenaline response and tension/relaxation with some very postive results.
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#303159 - 11/23/06 12:12 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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im certianly not saying muscle tension is good, natural positional tension happens of course but thats just body structure.

The bad stuff just happens when fighting due to adrenaline and fear hitting in, and certainly when we get worked up.

My students dont 'get it' when we work say 3 x 2 mins of tegumi and I have bearly a sweat on, they often say I seem so relaxed - I just have a skill and expieirence advantage over them, put me up against someone of similair or higher skill level and im working hard and the tension comes in the longer we work, the more tension.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#303160 - 11/23/06 01:03 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I know, I know, there is nothing in existence that MMAers and Thai Boxers don't know and do extremely well. Well, gloves change a lot. So do rules. So does fight strategy. Its funny because I was at a BBJ seminar with Relson Gracie who showed an escape from the triangle choke after it is locked in tight which works extremely well. However, I have never once seen it used in MMA competition. In fact, Relson claimed he can escape anyone's triangle choke with it, and you know what, I believe him. In fact a while ago after about a month and a half training I used it to escape the triangle choke of a guy with 4 or 5 years training behind him. But then again what does Relson know right? MMA is a good training method, but even they don't know everything. There is nothing new under the sun, but then again everyone has something to learn, including you and me.

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#303161 - 11/23/06 01:10 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Its funny because I was at a BBJ seminar with Relson Gracie who showed an escape from the triangle choke after it is locked in tight which works extremely well. However, I have never once seen it used in MMA competition. In fact, Relson claimed he can escape anyone's triangle choke with it, and you know what, I believe him. In fact a while ago after about a month and a half training I used it to escape the triangle choke of a guy with 4 or 5 years training behind him.






Please share! I get caught in those a bit too often......
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#303162 - 11/23/06 01:17 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Try it out... I mean really try it out properly with someone really going for it. Let us know how you get on. I bet the triangle choke escape used a practical escape approach like a strike to the arm!
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#303163 - 11/23/06 01:26 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
medulanet Offline
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Gavin, you don't have to respect me, but I thought you would at least show some respect for Relson. But I guess you don't use anything the Gracies developed in YOUR MMA trianing.

Matt, as for the escape I'll show you if we ever train together. It may be better with people believing this stuff doesn't work. I can't give away all the good stuff.

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#303164 - 11/23/06 01:49 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
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I didn't disrespect you I poked a bit of fun at you... loosen up. I don't MMA either. I'm interested in things that work in the real world under real conditions consistently. Try your clinching theory out, pressure test it. Have fun and experiment!
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#303165 - 11/23/06 09:32 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I am not sure how anyone can think striking the arms in a clinch would not work. They are right there and so are yours. I attack the arms to some extent anytime I am in a clinch situation.

I'd like to see the choke escape too. Maybe you can run it by me in March.
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Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#303166 - 11/24/06 02:13 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
Eveal Offline
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Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Go watch the Franklin/Silva fight and let know why he didn't attack that guys arms to get out of his clinch.

As far as tensing the arms during the clinch, they should tense during the quick explosive burst when your trying to control the body by whipping the head or fighting for the position. Everyone should know your not going to hold constant tension because you are going to drain yourself in mere seconds (thats beginner level).

Lastly, you hit my arm I elbow your face. I like my choice better in this exchange.

Brandon
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#303167 - 11/24/06 06:19 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Eveal]
Chen Zen Offline
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I didnt read all of the responses, but heres what I think. Punching to the arm isnt going to get it. If you can punch WITH power, why waste it on the arm? I cant speak for all opponents, but as far as I go, a punch to the arm would do little more than anger me. Also, If I am the opponent ant I get the clinch, its grounding time. Once Ive established a firm grip Im going to slam or suplex my opponent. Im not taking the risk of trading punches or elbows or knees and possibly getting put on my back. Im going for the slam, which in most cases will be the fight ender if its on the pavement.
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#303168 - 11/24/06 06:20 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Eveal]
medulanet Offline
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As far as the Franklin/Silva fight striking the arms in the clinch is best against either an opponent grasping clothing or going for an underhook. Silva utilized the double head tie or Plum I blieve it is referred to in Muay Thai. Oh, and please tell me just how what Franklin did was so much more effective than striking the arms. Do you use his methods of clinch fighting?

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#303169 - 11/24/06 06:24 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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Striking the pressure points of the arm is effective and will loosen your opponents grip,it will also set up more pressure points strikes like on the neck. The question here is can this be done under pressure?

I think it is possible,but not probable.
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#303170 - 11/24/06 06:34 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
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Franklin would have had more success if he'd have used basic wrestling counters to the double neck tie that Silva was using, rather than attempting to punch the arms. Punching the arms probably will only result on your being that much further out of good position.


Two things you can do to counter the plumm include:

1) Popping one elbow away from centerline with the opposite hand and shooting an underhook or
2) Pulling one elbow toward centerline with an opposite hand along with a head peel (reaching around your opponents head, behind his neck, to grasp the far ear) from your other hand while hipping in (pops the arm right off of your neck and gives you the hips)

In my opinion, you counter wrestling positions first as opposed to simply attacking. Taking the inferior positions that you're in and improving them as opposed to simply hacking away with punching is the way to go.

-John

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#303171 - 11/24/06 06:52 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
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Actually its a combination of both. Again, like I said striking the arms is not a good counter for the double head tie. However, using a good overhook/whizzer for an underhook, or trapping a hand grabbing cloth against the body while distracting with a strike/flick to the face/eyes provides the time. The striking hand drops straight down and strikes the grabbing arm and then shoots straight back to the face for another strike. Again, this is used to gain an advantage when grabbed first. If the initial position desired, such as your opponent obtaining a deep underhook, is not achieved then other strategies are used, i.e. wrestling counters to gain a better position until other offensive tactics can be initiated.

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#303172 - 11/25/06 04:06 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
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absolutly agree with this Brian, and the conversation seems to have steered over towards UFC type fighters where I would agree arm strikes are not alot of use to anyone (the athletes are to conditioned and skillfull).

However if the street punk doesnt know its coming, isnt particulary skilled, and doesnt posses to much 'proportionally to you' body strength then arm strikes have their place, for the reasons you say.

Another key element to what they can achieve is loss of balance, far more significant than any meridian line PP set up etc etc, physical set up yes im with that - nice thing with this is even heavy clothing etc etc will not help them to stop 'steping out/in' if they are struck correctly, at the right angle and with good force.

At my dojo we specifically condition a little and when we have visitors who dont condition, generally they jump around a bit when limbs clash, it is a valid hard style method and one that has been around for many, many years.

This is our basic practise but one that is effective and easily learnt, leading through to the more sophisticated methods as skill increases along with expierience.
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#303173 - 11/25/06 04:23 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Gavin Offline
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Thank you! Chen dude, thank you! I defy any of you to pull this off on da str33t! Really I do. Most martial artists would just about stand a chance of hitting someone in the head under the panic of a real unrehearsed brown stuff flowing attack on the street. You'll be acting off of a gross motor response caused by the flinch response, MOST people, as I said, can't even throw a fecking clean punch under these conditions let alone a precision shot. Could it work in theory.... yeah probably. Could it work in reality... I very much doubt it. I know for a fact that I don't think I could pull it off and I'd stick to realiable tactics thank you very muchly. A fantsyland land dojo technique. I'll happily put this theory to test with any UK guys kinky enough to experiment a bit.

Gav
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#303174 - 11/25/06 05:49 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
Victor Smith Offline
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Gavin,

If you're going to experiment striking into the arm there are several things to think about, first is what does a strike mean. Second anything requires skill development.

One strike that cannot miss is using the arm as a shearing plane of force, the dropping hammerfist style of striking into their forearm with a blasting forearm, a shearing plane is very interesting. I've seen a striking arm drop like a rag when this was used.

Secondly there is striking into the biceps of the attacking arm. This is an interior line of defense option. Vertical strikes are one example if you've studied Isshinryu, Tai Chi or another system that uses them. There the ridge of knuckles presents a wall that moves into their striking biceps. The harder they strike the more pain they feel. I suggest you practice this a little lightly. Of course this is harder to use if you use turning strikes.

There are indonesian siliat drills that work this against the boxing style attacks and train for it on both sides, to strike harder and to take them apart quicker.

A third option is lateral strikes into the arm. Among the easiest. Have you ever know you can always clap your hands togheter, in front of you, over your head, behind your back, without looking. The one hand will always strike into the other.

Using that knowledge you can slide the one hand alongside the strking limb and then use your other hand to strike your hand, just letting their limb get in the middle.

In Siliat there is a variation of working up the arm with forearm strikes that is actually the forearm striking the open palm on the other side of the opponents limb. Same principle, and a variation of someone touching you with one hand and inserting a knife immediately aftewards just underneath that touch.

Striking the limb really uses the knowledge that while they may hit hard on the end, their arms are relatively good pain receptors (unless they've spent a long time on impact training of the limbs), and have never faced someone who really works at striking the limbs.

There are some other options, but this still focuses on if they stick it out, take it and abuse it.


Edited by Victor Smith (11/25/06 05:51 AM)
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#303175 - 11/25/06 06:49 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Victor Smith]
Gavin Offline
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Victor correct me if I'm reading this wrong but your talking about striking the arms going into a clinch not actually "in" the clinch? Crashing two planes of energy and using a correctly angled attack to take the superior line. In which case crashing and smashing on the way in is cool. But this thread is titled "Striking the arm in the clinch". Once your actually in, IMHO attacking the arm with a strike will give away your postion. From a tai chi once in a clinch stance we'd yield to take their centre, take them out of their feet and then strike/throw/lock/snap etc once you've got superior position. Smashing an arm on the way should negate the need to clinch if you've pulled it off. Have I got the wrong end of the stick here or something, or do people actually think they can strike the arms once IN the clinch? Are we talking about entering and bridging techniques here?
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#303176 - 11/25/06 09:09 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
JKogas Offline
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Right, in Kali-Silat, the attacks to the arms are called "guntings". We just call them destructions.

What we've managed to find over the years is that through actual practice is that very few of these approaches are actually functional and work half the time. You have to be careful with arts trained as empty hand when they are or were meant to be used with weapons. The hand is not a blade.


-John

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#303177 - 11/25/06 11:50 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
Victor Smith Offline
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Gavin,

I was focusing on the arms coming in before the clinch is set. These need to be praciced skills, not casual answers, to understand their strengths and weaknesses. Of course there is more involved such as shifting your center of focus to help the strikes, etc.

Perhaps I lost focus on the thread, but that's what it seemed to be discussing.

Strking the arms when a clinch has occured does prove value, but as a distraction timed to overtake their center with perhaps a knee release as a force multiplier and following technique.

Do you ever notice how difficult it is to try and describe in words what we just work on and do?
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#303178 - 11/25/06 01:26 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Victor Smith]
Chen Zen Offline
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If I can attack before coming into the clinch, it isnt going to be the bicep or tricep of my opponent. PP knock outs happen in dillman dojo's, not reality. Id test that against Dillman himself. If a can attack on the way in, Im looking to strike the face, or the knee. I want to knock him out or facilitate him being taken off his feet by hurting his knee.

Now once IN the clinch, Im not punching. At all. I may throw an elbow or a knee, but thats distraction to set up for the slam. Its a lot more of a distraction then getting hit in the arm like you and your buddies did in high school trading punches.

You must realize that when adrenaline is pumping, you might not even feel a blow to the face, why would you feel it in your arm?

Also, If Im in the clinch and my opponent has suddenly released his grip to punch me, he has made a grievous mistake. One that will likely cost him the fight. As soon as he releases Im going for the choke, break, or slam. Or I might just let go too and hit him. All in all, I think your time would be better spent avoiding the clinch, or working on the quick takedown as oppossed to a precision shot that requires too much precision and to many optimum situations to pull off.
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#303179 - 11/25/06 01:41 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
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Registered: 06/26/06
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Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Let me preface my following statement with the fact that I am not a "pressure point" advocate. Much like some of you have said, it is far too difficult to strike a pressure point in an actual attack. However, also like some of you have said, it is not too hard to strike an "area". The nerves run down the inside of the arm and are pretty easy to hit without having to be very precise. You hit the nerve and the arm is useless for a short time.

If a person is throwing a punch or comming in in some way, they are probably expecting some kind of counter. If the counter is made to the face or body, it has a good chance of being defended. However, if a person comes in and you attack the limb that is coming in, it is less likely the person expects it and a good strike to any muscle will cause the muscle to become useless. What is the chance the person continues attacking when they have a numb/limp arm? It is also true that pain can cause a person to lose focus, flow, technique and even consciousness. A lot of people have never felt the pain that a good limb destruction can cause and will not continue when they finally do.

As far as in the clinch, I can keep my guard up while throwing an elbow strike. Could someone describe (body position) the type of clinch that they feel a defender can not use an arm attack in, because I can't imagine not having that option.
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#303180 - 11/25/06 01:50 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
Chen Zen Offline
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You know, out of all those years of sparring, and testosterone fueled punch ups with my buddies, Ive never once been hit in the arm hard enough to render it useless. Numb, tingling, or otherwise. Also a correct fighter isnt going to allow you to attack his limbs as he attacks. He will draw back quickly after the attack and if you are lucky enough to land this shot he will feint,draw you out, then attack.
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#303181 - 11/25/06 03:19 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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Did you ever train with anyone with pressure point experience?

I was literally floored and my arm rendered useless with a strike to my forearm. Trust me,it stinkin' hurts.
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#303182 - 11/25/06 03:29 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
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Registered: 06/26/06
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Loc: Dayton, Ohio
First, I would not be striking the arm as it was going out.

Second, I have been hit in the arm during sparring and the arm can become useless (I can back this up through education as well as experience)

Third, when it gets done on you for the first time, by someone that knows what they are doing, you will ask yourself how and what they did. Until then, I can understand some of the disbelief and it is really useless to try to convince anyone that it works.

I would still like to a description of the clinch that makes using limb attacks ill-advised.
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#303183 - 11/25/06 03:42 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
JKogas Offline
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It is difficult to describe in words a good clinch game. It must be felt to be understood.



-John

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#303184 - 11/25/06 06:07 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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That's the beauty of shorin ryu techs. Again, most of my arm striking is as someone is attempting to establish dominant position in the clinch and I am able to block his attempt at a clothing grab or underhook. My arm strike drops down and immediately comes up for a strike to the face. In shorin ryu my end goal is to put my opponent down as well. However, I use strikes and or his reactions to those strikes to set up my takedown. Although a bonus I don't need his arm to be rendered useless. All I need is a natural anatomical reaction. Its about breaking his structure with an unexpected strategy. Rather than in a MMA style "match" vary your sparring in more self defense oriented sparring. In addition I am suprised so many have acutally trained such responses to attacks such as attacking the arm as an opponent attempts to establish the clinch and therefore determined that is is a poor strategy.

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#303185 - 11/25/06 07:36 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
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Maybe some idiots make a straight ahead, blatant attempt to grab you. Perhaps what you're saying works in that sort-of situation.

The clinch I'm familiar with is practically unavoidable (unless you are running away) and it includes movement, fakes and feinting, strikes and other set-ups.

What's the difference between MMA sparring and self-defense sparring?


-John

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#303186 - 11/26/06 01:10 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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I look at it this way. When fighting you get hit.Ive seen people punched in the face, Ive been punched in the face and Ive punched others faces for them. If a shot in the face or groin can be overlooked a simple punch in the arm is not going to get the response you describe or desire. Someone with a good clinch isnt going to stay there long. Hes going to use it to put you on your back or to go for the KO.

As for my PP experience, it is limited I admit, because I think its bogus. I once went into an Aikido school. The teacher was a jerk but obviously skilled at what he did, judging by the beating he put on his students. Towards the end of it he shows a pressure point technique to the class. It was a three phase attack, meaning to be successful one would have to precisely hit not one but three targets, and in a minimal amount of time. One point was on the wrist, just behind the thumb. One was inside the elbow and one was on the point of the shoulder. While I admit it did hurt, it would not stop an attack and under pressure it would not land. Theres too many simpler options.
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#303187 - 11/26/06 01:26 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
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Self defense sparring mainly consists of more situational stuff. For example tell the opponent they have 15 seconds to put their opponent on the ground or shove them against a wall. Stuff like that. Believe it or not things change when you have different "rules." Strategies change when time is limited or different situations are added. Of course certain principles remain constant, but things change.

Hmmm, the unavoidable clinch. Well Randy, believe it or not Shorin Ryu karate is all about fighting in the clinch range, but can be used in all ranges. Its kind of like dirty boxing. Its not about avoiding the clinch, preventing your opponent from obtaining a dominant position. Blocking a deep underhook or trapping the hand that is grabbing clothing. All you need is a second.

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#303188 - 11/26/06 10:04 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Chen Zen wrote:
Quote:

I look at it this way. When fighting you get hit.Ive seen people punched in the face, Ive been punched in the face and Ive punched others faces for them. If a shot in the face or groin can be overlooked a simple punch in the arm is not going to get the response you describe or desire. Someone with a good clinch isnt going to stay there long. Hes going to use it to put you on your back or to go for the KO.




I am with you completely on this Chen. If you’re getting hurt and having the fight taken out of you by punches to the arm, perhaps you all shouldn’t be in the fight business to begin with.

I too think the whole pressure point thing is garbage for the most part. But the martial arts crowd really seems to dig having all this stuff in their arsenals. It makes them feel that they have an edge. Many martial artists want to believe that fighting arts and training can be more complex and “rocket science” than it really is. Chalk it up to that.


medulanet wrote:
Quote:

Self defense sparring mainly consists of more situational stuff. For example tell the opponent they have 15 seconds to put their opponent on the ground or shove them against a wall. Stuff like that. Believe it or not things change when you have different "rules." Strategies change when time is limited or different situations are added. Of course certain principles remain constant, but things change.





But this is a false premise. Its assuming that people doing mma sparring aren’t trying to finish their opponent’s quickly. This is just ridiculous. Who in their right mind doesn’t want to finish their opponent quickly or put them in inferior situations quickly? The problem is, just as in life, that the OTHER guy often has something to SAY about that.

I’d be willing to bet that ANYONE fighting in MMA would LOVE to have his opponent on the ground or against a wall within 15 seconds. Many times they often do. But it isn’t ever a one-sided situation. The way you’re talking is making it seem like MMA is a GAME. Last time I checked, both opponents were doing their best to beat each other and knock each other the hell out.

Rules have absolutely ZERO to do with it.

So you know how you do this in MMA? You turn the timer down to 15 seconds, or however long you WANT to move it to. The thing is, techniques don’t change simply because the time does.


Quote:


Hmmm, the unavoidable clinch.





Well, it’s hard to get it across with words bro. I could demonstrate if you were closer.


Quote:


Well Randy, believe it or not Shorin Ryu karate is all about fighting in the clinch range, but can be used in all ranges. Its kind of like dirty boxing. Its not about avoiding the clinch, preventing your opponent from obtaining a dominant position. Blocking a deep underhook or trapping the hand that is grabbing clothing. All you need is a second.





Ever heard of hand fighting or pummeling?

Telling me about a “style” brother doesn’t get me impressed.



-John

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#303189 - 11/26/06 11:40 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

If a shot in the face or groin can be overlooked a simple punch in the arm is not going to get the response you describe or desire




Then the numerous times I have done it and had it done were just my imagination.

I don't buy into the whole pressure point business. I wouldn't risk that type of technique. However, striking the limbs is not pressure point fighting. It is striking muscle and nerve which does get a response.

When you finally become a doctor or neuroscientist and can back up that it doesn't work, then maybe a little cresibility can be given to what you say. Until then, there is nothing that can be said to the person that just wants to sit there and say that it won't work when they haven's had it done, don't know how to do it and can't explain the anatomy & physiology behind it.
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#303190 - 11/26/06 01:19 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:



Then the numerous times I have done it and had it done were just my imagination.

I don't buy into the whole pressure point business. I wouldn't risk that type of technique. However, striking the limbs is not pressure point fighting. It is striking muscle and nerve which does get a response.





Get a response striking nerve and muscle....


I know a guy who got his ARM BROKEN in a fight (Forrest Griffin).

He got the arm broken by a strike of some sort. It was a freak accident. What was HIS response to this? He knocked the guy out with his OTHER arm.

In other words, hitting Forrest's arm there and making it a little "sore" isn't going to do the trick, particularly if breaking it didn't work to end the fight.

Certainly his clinch game *might* have been hampered a bit from a broken arm. Anything less than that however and you CAN forget about it. That's all I've been saying and I'm quite sure that's what Chen Zen was and is saying as well.

Maybe not everyone else has the heart to be a fighter, I don't know. If you can't deal with discomfort and continue fighting, perhaps you should find another hobby.



-John

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#303191 - 11/26/06 02:11 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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Apparently my Cresibility is on the line here. Before going on a rant about someone being ignorant you might want to hit the spell check Saisho.

As for me being a neuroscience major, Im not. However, if an Aikido instructor who trained along side of Steven Seagall could not make it work why would I believe that you or anyone else could?

The simple fact is, you would have a better chance of loosening the opponents grip with a shot to the face, groin, or even the ribs than you would by punching his arm. Its likely the punch to the arm isnt even going to register until long after the fight. Then he is just going to think he's sore from slamming you, not some killer top secret CIA karate move.

I would test this all day with anyone and not once will it work. They're going to punch Im going to slam. Who do you think is going to give up first? Im really surprised that this isnt a little more obvious to some of you.
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#303192 - 11/26/06 02:31 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
shoshinkan Offline
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'killer top secret CIA karate move'

RAFLMAO.
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#303193 - 11/26/06 02:36 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
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Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

Apparently my Cresibility is on the line here. Before going on a rant about someone being ignorant you might want to hit the spell check Saisho.




I'm sorry. I can't find a keyboard that has the letters spaced apart more. That 's' and 'd' are too close for my untrained typing abilities.

Where is the spell check?

Steven Seagal.... I'm I reading this correctly? Seagal is being used to refute an argument about striking the arms. How does that apply at all?
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#303194 - 11/26/06 02:39 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
Chen Zen Offline
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Only as an example, due to his knowledge and use of PP and Aikido.

As for spell check, thats on your computer. At the very least there is a preview button before you submit your posts. Its not a big deal, just bustin your chops a little.
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#303195 - 11/26/06 02:55 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
CVV Offline
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Loc: Belgium
Can't testify on a broken arm, but with dislocated schoulder I did not continue (in a sparring contest).
On the PP issue, must admit that in real situation PP face/nose, throath and groin are focus (I loved that remark from Jkogas). However in training, some points on the body hurt more then others. I learned a thumb lock from an aikidoka and learned to apply it in sparring. At first, it hurt very hard (I thaught) but after some months, we kinda got used to it or perhaps were no longer suprised by the initial sharp pain. Also trained the hand daily (with a pincher) so I had more power in the grip and had more resistance when lock was applied. Maybe at some point we come to breaking the thumb and then that hand gets useless for gripping, never went that far yet and seems to be difficult to achieve with somebody trying to get out of that lock as he is moving away from the force/pressure that is applied.
When adrenaline and pressure kicks in, there is alot you don't feel anymore. A few months back I fell with my bike training emergency stops (at 90km/h - 60mp/h). I immediatly got up and even helped to push my bike on the trailer. When I got home 3 hours later, I couldnt walk anymore.
In combative stress, adrenaline has this effect too (or freeze up sometimes) but take e.g. the stomach (area CV13 - CV 15) would you agree that it's better to hit there than to hit in the belly further below ? But a trained opponent knows this and tries to defend this position. He also trains the muscles to withstand the contact. Imo, this is general for all PP, also the ones on the arm.
But must admit that the focus on these points has only been in training and never in a real fight.

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#303196 - 11/26/06 08:56 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
CZ,

Just a few minor points. Sorry it's taking time to respond but I'm flat out between work and family duties right now.

First while striking into the arm is an option that can be trained, it is not the only option or necessarily the optimal one. A response is always dependent on the specifics of the situation and the training level of both opponents.

Second, in my study there is only one pressure point, anywhere on the persons body. Sure some areas feel pain more quickly (dependant on the individuals nervous system), but the method of striking (and there are many different methods involved) all require serious study.

The operating mechanism is blunt force trama from a strike, more pratically developed from years of makiwara training.

Striking into the biceps involves a number of factors. The use of the appropriate tool, such as Isshinryu's standing fist used as a standing ridge of knuckes, or chinese leopard paw or indonesian standing knife hand strikes for want of simpler terminology. The method of striking is also deceptive, part of it is striking into the biceps, but part of it involves getting the striking tool to the right place and letting their biceps strike into the tool.

Biceps striking is a practiced technique, following Indonesian training standards we work against boxing style attacks such as jab, jab, uppercut and various speeds as the skills develop. If the angle of response is appropriate the attacker seems to get an interesting look on their face.

Another tool, the use of desceinding hammerfist style focused forarm strikes is done 90 degress across the opponents strike.

But I understand your experience hasn't felt these responses. It shows how experience shapes what we believe.

I consider this range of response serious enough to make it a substantial portion of our studies. But as in many things, everything isn't always perfect, and they still provide openings that can be exploited and developed through training too.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#303197 - 11/26/06 10:41 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Victor Smith]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
By all means, take your time. Your posts are always worth waiting for. When the thread first started, I didnt think so much of knifehand or raised knuckle techniques. I agree that these types of techniques offer more penetration, thus more effect, but I doubt its stopping power. It may possibly indict some response, but not against a trained individual of a certain measure. Later, as people suggested striking as the clinch was being attempted, I thought of these things a little. However, the approach that I have taken when attacking while defending is that you do this to punish the opponent for attacking you, and to setup the counter offensive. If that is the case, then the opponent must have me "on the ropes" so to speak. If I have found myself on the losing end of the battle, and these types of attacks are an option for me, then I would try to do real structural damage to the opponent. If I meant to do this by striking then I would go for the joints. The inside elbow, shoulder/armpit, and the collarbone. I want to end it quickly. Its no longer time for trading punches. There are always techniques that are out there that are viable, but its about efficiency. Would you rather punch the opponent five times or two?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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