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#303193 - 11/26/06 02:36 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio

Apparently my Cresibility is on the line here. Before going on a rant about someone being ignorant you might want to hit the spell check Saisho.

I'm sorry. I can't find a keyboard that has the letters spaced apart more. That 's' and 'd' are too close for my untrained typing abilities.

Where is the spell check?

Steven Seagal.... I'm I reading this correctly? Seagal is being used to refute an argument about striking the arms. How does that apply at all?
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo

#303194 - 11/26/06 02:39 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Only as an example, due to his knowledge and use of PP and Aikido.

As for spell check, thats on your computer. At the very least there is a preview button before you submit your posts. Its not a big deal, just bustin your chops a little.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#303195 - 11/26/06 02:55 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
CVV Offline

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Can't testify on a broken arm, but with dislocated schoulder I did not continue (in a sparring contest).
On the PP issue, must admit that in real situation PP face/nose, throath and groin are focus (I loved that remark from Jkogas). However in training, some points on the body hurt more then others. I learned a thumb lock from an aikidoka and learned to apply it in sparring. At first, it hurt very hard (I thaught) but after some months, we kinda got used to it or perhaps were no longer suprised by the initial sharp pain. Also trained the hand daily (with a pincher) so I had more power in the grip and had more resistance when lock was applied. Maybe at some point we come to breaking the thumb and then that hand gets useless for gripping, never went that far yet and seems to be difficult to achieve with somebody trying to get out of that lock as he is moving away from the force/pressure that is applied.
When adrenaline and pressure kicks in, there is alot you don't feel anymore. A few months back I fell with my bike training emergency stops (at 90km/h - 60mp/h). I immediatly got up and even helped to push my bike on the trailer. When I got home 3 hours later, I couldnt walk anymore.
In combative stress, adrenaline has this effect too (or freeze up sometimes) but take e.g. the stomach (area CV13 - CV 15) would you agree that it's better to hit there than to hit in the belly further below ? But a trained opponent knows this and tries to defend this position. He also trains the muscles to withstand the contact. Imo, this is general for all PP, also the ones on the arm.
But must admit that the focus on these points has only been in training and never in a real fight.

#303196 - 11/26/06 08:56 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

Just a few minor points. Sorry it's taking time to respond but I'm flat out between work and family duties right now.

First while striking into the arm is an option that can be trained, it is not the only option or necessarily the optimal one. A response is always dependent on the specifics of the situation and the training level of both opponents.

Second, in my study there is only one pressure point, anywhere on the persons body. Sure some areas feel pain more quickly (dependant on the individuals nervous system), but the method of striking (and there are many different methods involved) all require serious study.

The operating mechanism is blunt force trama from a strike, more pratically developed from years of makiwara training.

Striking into the biceps involves a number of factors. The use of the appropriate tool, such as Isshinryu's standing fist used as a standing ridge of knuckes, or chinese leopard paw or indonesian standing knife hand strikes for want of simpler terminology. The method of striking is also deceptive, part of it is striking into the biceps, but part of it involves getting the striking tool to the right place and letting their biceps strike into the tool.

Biceps striking is a practiced technique, following Indonesian training standards we work against boxing style attacks such as jab, jab, uppercut and various speeds as the skills develop. If the angle of response is appropriate the attacker seems to get an interesting look on their face.

Another tool, the use of desceinding hammerfist style focused forarm strikes is done 90 degress across the opponents strike.

But I understand your experience hasn't felt these responses. It shows how experience shapes what we believe.

I consider this range of response serious enough to make it a substantial portion of our studies. But as in many things, everything isn't always perfect, and they still provide openings that can be exploited and developed through training too.
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#303197 - 11/26/06 10:41 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Victor Smith]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
By all means, take your time. Your posts are always worth waiting for. When the thread first started, I didnt think so much of knifehand or raised knuckle techniques. I agree that these types of techniques offer more penetration, thus more effect, but I doubt its stopping power. It may possibly indict some response, but not against a trained individual of a certain measure. Later, as people suggested striking as the clinch was being attempted, I thought of these things a little. However, the approach that I have taken when attacking while defending is that you do this to punish the opponent for attacking you, and to setup the counter offensive. If that is the case, then the opponent must have me "on the ropes" so to speak. If I have found myself on the losing end of the battle, and these types of attacks are an option for me, then I would try to do real structural damage to the opponent. If I meant to do this by striking then I would go for the joints. The inside elbow, shoulder/armpit, and the collarbone. I want to end it quickly. Its no longer time for trading punches. There are always techniques that are out there that are viable, but its about efficiency. Would you rather punch the opponent five times or two?
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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