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#303183 - 11/25/06 03:42 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
It is difficult to describe in words a good clinch game. It must be felt to be understood.



-John

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#303184 - 11/25/06 06:07 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
That's the beauty of shorin ryu techs. Again, most of my arm striking is as someone is attempting to establish dominant position in the clinch and I am able to block his attempt at a clothing grab or underhook. My arm strike drops down and immediately comes up for a strike to the face. In shorin ryu my end goal is to put my opponent down as well. However, I use strikes and or his reactions to those strikes to set up my takedown. Although a bonus I don't need his arm to be rendered useless. All I need is a natural anatomical reaction. Its about breaking his structure with an unexpected strategy. Rather than in a MMA style "match" vary your sparring in more self defense oriented sparring. In addition I am suprised so many have acutally trained such responses to attacks such as attacking the arm as an opponent attempts to establish the clinch and therefore determined that is is a poor strategy.

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#303185 - 11/25/06 07:36 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Maybe some idiots make a straight ahead, blatant attempt to grab you. Perhaps what you're saying works in that sort-of situation.

The clinch I'm familiar with is practically unavoidable (unless you are running away) and it includes movement, fakes and feinting, strikes and other set-ups.

What's the difference between MMA sparring and self-defense sparring?


-John

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#303186 - 11/26/06 01:10 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I look at it this way. When fighting you get hit.Ive seen people punched in the face, Ive been punched in the face and Ive punched others faces for them. If a shot in the face or groin can be overlooked a simple punch in the arm is not going to get the response you describe or desire. Someone with a good clinch isnt going to stay there long. Hes going to use it to put you on your back or to go for the KO.

As for my PP experience, it is limited I admit, because I think its bogus. I once went into an Aikido school. The teacher was a jerk but obviously skilled at what he did, judging by the beating he put on his students. Towards the end of it he shows a pressure point technique to the class. It was a three phase attack, meaning to be successful one would have to precisely hit not one but three targets, and in a minimal amount of time. One point was on the wrist, just behind the thumb. One was inside the elbow and one was on the point of the shoulder. While I admit it did hurt, it would not stop an attack and under pressure it would not land. Theres too many simpler options.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#303187 - 11/26/06 01:26 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Self defense sparring mainly consists of more situational stuff. For example tell the opponent they have 15 seconds to put their opponent on the ground or shove them against a wall. Stuff like that. Believe it or not things change when you have different "rules." Strategies change when time is limited or different situations are added. Of course certain principles remain constant, but things change.

Hmmm, the unavoidable clinch. Well Randy, believe it or not Shorin Ryu karate is all about fighting in the clinch range, but can be used in all ranges. Its kind of like dirty boxing. Its not about avoiding the clinch, preventing your opponent from obtaining a dominant position. Blocking a deep underhook or trapping the hand that is grabbing clothing. All you need is a second.

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#303188 - 11/26/06 10:04 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Chen Zen wrote:
Quote:

I look at it this way. When fighting you get hit.Ive seen people punched in the face, Ive been punched in the face and Ive punched others faces for them. If a shot in the face or groin can be overlooked a simple punch in the arm is not going to get the response you describe or desire. Someone with a good clinch isnt going to stay there long. Hes going to use it to put you on your back or to go for the KO.




I am with you completely on this Chen. If you’re getting hurt and having the fight taken out of you by punches to the arm, perhaps you all shouldn’t be in the fight business to begin with.

I too think the whole pressure point thing is garbage for the most part. But the martial arts crowd really seems to dig having all this stuff in their arsenals. It makes them feel that they have an edge. Many martial artists want to believe that fighting arts and training can be more complex and “rocket science” than it really is. Chalk it up to that.


medulanet wrote:
Quote:

Self defense sparring mainly consists of more situational stuff. For example tell the opponent they have 15 seconds to put their opponent on the ground or shove them against a wall. Stuff like that. Believe it or not things change when you have different "rules." Strategies change when time is limited or different situations are added. Of course certain principles remain constant, but things change.





But this is a false premise. Its assuming that people doing mma sparring aren’t trying to finish their opponent’s quickly. This is just ridiculous. Who in their right mind doesn’t want to finish their opponent quickly or put them in inferior situations quickly? The problem is, just as in life, that the OTHER guy often has something to SAY about that.

I’d be willing to bet that ANYONE fighting in MMA would LOVE to have his opponent on the ground or against a wall within 15 seconds. Many times they often do. But it isn’t ever a one-sided situation. The way you’re talking is making it seem like MMA is a GAME. Last time I checked, both opponents were doing their best to beat each other and knock each other the hell out.

Rules have absolutely ZERO to do with it.

So you know how you do this in MMA? You turn the timer down to 15 seconds, or however long you WANT to move it to. The thing is, techniques don’t change simply because the time does.


Quote:


Hmmm, the unavoidable clinch.





Well, it’s hard to get it across with words bro. I could demonstrate if you were closer.


Quote:


Well Randy, believe it or not Shorin Ryu karate is all about fighting in the clinch range, but can be used in all ranges. Its kind of like dirty boxing. Its not about avoiding the clinch, preventing your opponent from obtaining a dominant position. Blocking a deep underhook or trapping the hand that is grabbing clothing. All you need is a second.





Ever heard of hand fighting or pummeling?

Telling me about a “style” brother doesn’t get me impressed.



-John

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#303189 - 11/26/06 11:40 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Quote:

If a shot in the face or groin can be overlooked a simple punch in the arm is not going to get the response you describe or desire




Then the numerous times I have done it and had it done were just my imagination.

I don't buy into the whole pressure point business. I wouldn't risk that type of technique. However, striking the limbs is not pressure point fighting. It is striking muscle and nerve which does get a response.

When you finally become a doctor or neuroscientist and can back up that it doesn't work, then maybe a little cresibility can be given to what you say. Until then, there is nothing that can be said to the person that just wants to sit there and say that it won't work when they haven's had it done, don't know how to do it and can't explain the anatomy & physiology behind it.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#303190 - 11/26/06 01:19 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:



Then the numerous times I have done it and had it done were just my imagination.

I don't buy into the whole pressure point business. I wouldn't risk that type of technique. However, striking the limbs is not pressure point fighting. It is striking muscle and nerve which does get a response.





Get a response striking nerve and muscle....


I know a guy who got his ARM BROKEN in a fight (Forrest Griffin).

He got the arm broken by a strike of some sort. It was a freak accident. What was HIS response to this? He knocked the guy out with his OTHER arm.

In other words, hitting Forrest's arm there and making it a little "sore" isn't going to do the trick, particularly if breaking it didn't work to end the fight.

Certainly his clinch game *might* have been hampered a bit from a broken arm. Anything less than that however and you CAN forget about it. That's all I've been saying and I'm quite sure that's what Chen Zen was and is saying as well.

Maybe not everyone else has the heart to be a fighter, I don't know. If you can't deal with discomfort and continue fighting, perhaps you should find another hobby.



-John

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#303191 - 11/26/06 02:11 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Apparently my Cresibility is on the line here. Before going on a rant about someone being ignorant you might want to hit the spell check Saisho.

As for me being a neuroscience major, Im not. However, if an Aikido instructor who trained along side of Steven Seagall could not make it work why would I believe that you or anyone else could?

The simple fact is, you would have a better chance of loosening the opponents grip with a shot to the face, groin, or even the ribs than you would by punching his arm. Its likely the punch to the arm isnt even going to register until long after the fight. Then he is just going to think he's sore from slamming you, not some killer top secret CIA karate move.

I would test this all day with anyone and not once will it work. They're going to punch Im going to slam. Who do you think is going to give up first? Im really surprised that this isnt a little more obvious to some of you.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#303192 - 11/26/06 02:31 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'killer top secret CIA karate move'

RAFLMAO.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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