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#303173 - 11/25/06 04:23 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Thank you! Chen dude, thank you! I defy any of you to pull this off on da str33t! Really I do. Most martial artists would just about stand a chance of hitting someone in the head under the panic of a real unrehearsed brown stuff flowing attack on the street. You'll be acting off of a gross motor response caused by the flinch response, MOST people, as I said, can't even throw a fecking clean punch under these conditions let alone a precision shot. Could it work in theory.... yeah probably. Could it work in reality... I very much doubt it. I know for a fact that I don't think I could pull it off and I'd stick to realiable tactics thank you very muchly. A fantsyland land dojo technique. I'll happily put this theory to test with any UK guys kinky enough to experiment a bit.

Gav
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#303174 - 11/25/06 05:49 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Gavin,

If you're going to experiment striking into the arm there are several things to think about, first is what does a strike mean. Second anything requires skill development.

One strike that cannot miss is using the arm as a shearing plane of force, the dropping hammerfist style of striking into their forearm with a blasting forearm, a shearing plane is very interesting. I've seen a striking arm drop like a rag when this was used.

Secondly there is striking into the biceps of the attacking arm. This is an interior line of defense option. Vertical strikes are one example if you've studied Isshinryu, Tai Chi or another system that uses them. There the ridge of knuckles presents a wall that moves into their striking biceps. The harder they strike the more pain they feel. I suggest you practice this a little lightly. Of course this is harder to use if you use turning strikes.

There are indonesian siliat drills that work this against the boxing style attacks and train for it on both sides, to strike harder and to take them apart quicker.

A third option is lateral strikes into the arm. Among the easiest. Have you ever know you can always clap your hands togheter, in front of you, over your head, behind your back, without looking. The one hand will always strike into the other.

Using that knowledge you can slide the one hand alongside the strking limb and then use your other hand to strike your hand, just letting their limb get in the middle.

In Siliat there is a variation of working up the arm with forearm strikes that is actually the forearm striking the open palm on the other side of the opponents limb. Same principle, and a variation of someone touching you with one hand and inserting a knife immediately aftewards just underneath that touch.

Striking the limb really uses the knowledge that while they may hit hard on the end, their arms are relatively good pain receptors (unless they've spent a long time on impact training of the limbs), and have never faced someone who really works at striking the limbs.

There are some other options, but this still focuses on if they stick it out, take it and abuse it.


Edited by Victor Smith (11/25/06 05:51 AM)
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#303175 - 11/25/06 06:49 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Victor Smith]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Victor correct me if I'm reading this wrong but your talking about striking the arms going into a clinch not actually "in" the clinch? Crashing two planes of energy and using a correctly angled attack to take the superior line. In which case crashing and smashing on the way in is cool. But this thread is titled "Striking the arm in the clinch". Once your actually in, IMHO attacking the arm with a strike will give away your postion. From a tai chi once in a clinch stance we'd yield to take their centre, take them out of their feet and then strike/throw/lock/snap etc once you've got superior position. Smashing an arm on the way should negate the need to clinch if you've pulled it off. Have I got the wrong end of the stick here or something, or do people actually think they can strike the arms once IN the clinch? Are we talking about entering and bridging techniques here?
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#303176 - 11/25/06 09:09 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Right, in Kali-Silat, the attacks to the arms are called "guntings". We just call them destructions.

What we've managed to find over the years is that through actual practice is that very few of these approaches are actually functional and work half the time. You have to be careful with arts trained as empty hand when they are or were meant to be used with weapons. The hand is not a blade.


-John

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#303177 - 11/25/06 11:50 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Gavin,

I was focusing on the arms coming in before the clinch is set. These need to be praciced skills, not casual answers, to understand their strengths and weaknesses. Of course there is more involved such as shifting your center of focus to help the strikes, etc.

Perhaps I lost focus on the thread, but that's what it seemed to be discussing.

Strking the arms when a clinch has occured does prove value, but as a distraction timed to overtake their center with perhaps a knee release as a force multiplier and following technique.

Do you ever notice how difficult it is to try and describe in words what we just work on and do?
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#303178 - 11/25/06 01:26 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Victor Smith]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
If I can attack before coming into the clinch, it isnt going to be the bicep or tricep of my opponent. PP knock outs happen in dillman dojo's, not reality. Id test that against Dillman himself. If a can attack on the way in, Im looking to strike the face, or the knee. I want to knock him out or facilitate him being taken off his feet by hurting his knee.

Now once IN the clinch, Im not punching. At all. I may throw an elbow or a knee, but thats distraction to set up for the slam. Its a lot more of a distraction then getting hit in the arm like you and your buddies did in high school trading punches.

You must realize that when adrenaline is pumping, you might not even feel a blow to the face, why would you feel it in your arm?

Also, If Im in the clinch and my opponent has suddenly released his grip to punch me, he has made a grievous mistake. One that will likely cost him the fight. As soon as he releases Im going for the choke, break, or slam. Or I might just let go too and hit him. All in all, I think your time would be better spent avoiding the clinch, or working on the quick takedown as oppossed to a precision shot that requires too much precision and to many optimum situations to pull off.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#303179 - 11/25/06 01:41 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Let me preface my following statement with the fact that I am not a "pressure point" advocate. Much like some of you have said, it is far too difficult to strike a pressure point in an actual attack. However, also like some of you have said, it is not too hard to strike an "area". The nerves run down the inside of the arm and are pretty easy to hit without having to be very precise. You hit the nerve and the arm is useless for a short time.

If a person is throwing a punch or comming in in some way, they are probably expecting some kind of counter. If the counter is made to the face or body, it has a good chance of being defended. However, if a person comes in and you attack the limb that is coming in, it is less likely the person expects it and a good strike to any muscle will cause the muscle to become useless. What is the chance the person continues attacking when they have a numb/limp arm? It is also true that pain can cause a person to lose focus, flow, technique and even consciousness. A lot of people have never felt the pain that a good limb destruction can cause and will not continue when they finally do.

As far as in the clinch, I can keep my guard up while throwing an elbow strike. Could someone describe (body position) the type of clinch that they feel a defender can not use an arm attack in, because I can't imagine not having that option.
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Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#303180 - 11/25/06 01:50 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Saisho]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You know, out of all those years of sparring, and testosterone fueled punch ups with my buddies, Ive never once been hit in the arm hard enough to render it useless. Numb, tingling, or otherwise. Also a correct fighter isnt going to allow you to attack his limbs as he attacks. He will draw back quickly after the attack and if you are lucky enough to land this shot he will feint,draw you out, then attack.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#303181 - 11/25/06 03:19 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Did you ever train with anyone with pressure point experience?

I was literally floored and my arm rendered useless with a strike to my forearm. Trust me,it stinkin' hurts.
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#303182 - 11/25/06 03:29 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Chen Zen]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
First, I would not be striking the arm as it was going out.

Second, I have been hit in the arm during sparring and the arm can become useless (I can back this up through education as well as experience)

Third, when it gets done on you for the first time, by someone that knows what they are doing, you will ask yourself how and what they did. Until then, I can understand some of the disbelief and it is really useless to try to convince anyone that it works.

I would still like to a description of the clinch that makes using limb attacks ill-advised.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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