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#303153 - 11/23/06 02:44 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'"tensing" your arm will help REDUCE the pain and eliminate the reaction my strike causes?'

Personally I accept that there are always factors that will reduce our effectivness and yes muscle tension is one of them (Its the bodys armour), along with the big brothers of adrenaline and mental aggresion/determination.

It is absolute common knowlegde that people 'pumped up' mentally can do some rather extreme things and not feel it, add alcohol/drugs into it and maybee a slice of lunacy and the picture just gets worse. people are surprisingly resiliant.

Now of course this doesnt make it 'impossible' to defend ourselves but these factors do have a significant place in any self defense training,

I find in our standup wrestling often muscle tension comes in and yes strikes are less effective to the limbs at this point, still can do the business but not as easily, more skill and ability needed.
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Jim Neeter

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#303154 - 11/23/06 07:23 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
When your tense you can't move. Tense up in a clinch and your structure can be broken instantly, your centre taken and you'll be flying into the happy land of Smashed-limpness-on-the-floor-ville. The moment you tense in a clinch (or anywhere else for that matter) you become static and rigid. Static rigid things snap. Tensing when getting hit is a hard on hard... Any Goju guys agree with this? When two hards things meet the harder of the two wins and the weaker of the two pays the bill. When you're soft you absorb and redirect energy, when you're tense you just take it like a proverbial female dog!

As for hitting the arms in the clinch.... hmmm... Your going to remove your grip from a guy whose got a damn good grip on you to smash their arms??? Head or balls maybe a better option, but striking the arm? Nice dojo technique IMHO.
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#303155 - 11/23/06 11:37 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yes im with you on this Gavin, shizentai (natural) structure is our core practise but when standup wrestling with a bit of bite muscle tension happens, just how it is.

Of course the idea is the more skillful we get the less tension is used, but this process takes a while of practice.

You know what happens when adrenalin and fear combine, tension. Not ideal but it is reality for many people, to different degrees.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#303156 - 11/23/06 11:49 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Its like everything else. It takes the proper set up. You don't just hit em in the arm and they go down. You needs some sort of distraction. It is also something that is usually available at the engagement or disengagement stage of clinch work. Usually your just about chest to chest in the clinch and certain strikes are just unavailable. However, as a person grabs you it is a very good technique. You lock in one of the grabbing arms and distract at the same time with a strike to the face or a flick to the eyes. Or you could break their balance with a leg tech. Thats all the time you should need, unless you are slow as molasses. My question to the nay sayers is have you ever tried it? Or are you just theorizing. Have you ever heard of a two on one. It works standing and on the ground. It works in wrestling and when an opponent is allowed to strike. The goal is control. The same principles, except this is using striking and reflex reactions of pain the body's natural reaction to the strike to control rather than pure wrestling. Remember, if you don't get the desired effect you can easily go right back to the two on one and go for an arm drag or straight into a body lock because you are moving to that side and getting a good angle for good position as you strike.

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#303157 - 11/23/06 11:55 AM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes Sho, but that excess adrenaline tension is bad, not good. Your previous statement made it sound good like sense you were tensed you were suddenly immune to strikes. Ever had someone give you a frog on the arm as a kid. Someone askes you to make a muscle and then punches you as hard as they can and it hurst, a lot, and causes a big welt to suddenly rise. You can't do that when you are relaxed and it doesn't hurt nearly as much. Hell, even kids know these basics. Shorin guys do to. That's why we never take to Naha stuff. For me it just doesn't accomplish what I need.

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#303158 - 11/23/06 12:08 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Having gone into a clinch a fair few times for real in a professional environment I can tell you for nothing that when it hits the fan you won't stand a bat in hells chance of pulling a punch to the arm of a clinched opponent. Thai Boxer's and MMA'ers have probably the best clinch game there is and how often you see them strike the arms? Have you tried these theories out on someone going full guns at you?

Jim - We've been playing around quite a bit with the adrenaline response and tension/relaxation with some very postive results.
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#303159 - 11/23/06 12:12 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
im certianly not saying muscle tension is good, natural positional tension happens of course but thats just body structure.

The bad stuff just happens when fighting due to adrenaline and fear hitting in, and certainly when we get worked up.

My students dont 'get it' when we work say 3 x 2 mins of tegumi and I have bearly a sweat on, they often say I seem so relaxed - I just have a skill and expieirence advantage over them, put me up against someone of similair or higher skill level and im working hard and the tension comes in the longer we work, the more tension.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#303160 - 11/23/06 01:03 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: Gavin]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I know, I know, there is nothing in existence that MMAers and Thai Boxers don't know and do extremely well. Well, gloves change a lot. So do rules. So does fight strategy. Its funny because I was at a BBJ seminar with Relson Gracie who showed an escape from the triangle choke after it is locked in tight which works extremely well. However, I have never once seen it used in MMA competition. In fact, Relson claimed he can escape anyone's triangle choke with it, and you know what, I believe him. In fact a while ago after about a month and a half training I used it to escape the triangle choke of a guy with 4 or 5 years training behind him. But then again what does Relson know right? MMA is a good training method, but even they don't know everything. There is nothing new under the sun, but then again everyone has something to learn, including you and me.

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#303161 - 11/23/06 01:10 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Its funny because I was at a BBJ seminar with Relson Gracie who showed an escape from the triangle choke after it is locked in tight which works extremely well. However, I have never once seen it used in MMA competition. In fact, Relson claimed he can escape anyone's triangle choke with it, and you know what, I believe him. In fact a while ago after about a month and a half training I used it to escape the triangle choke of a guy with 4 or 5 years training behind him.






Please share! I get caught in those a bit too often......
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#303162 - 11/23/06 01:17 PM Re: Striking the arm in the clinch [Re: medulanet]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Try it out... I mean really try it out properly with someone really going for it. Let us know how you get on. I bet the triangle choke escape used a practical escape approach like a strike to the arm!
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Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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