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#302910 - 11/26/06 11:59 PM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: crablord]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
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It doesnt necessarily make it right, however, would it be right without the police or to let the man continue to tread upon the rights of others? Its a question of rather one man is bigger than the system and he is not, as I am not, nor are you.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu
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#302911 - 11/27/06 12:03 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: crablord]
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Member
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
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The following is a direct quote from the Las Vegas Police Department's Procedural Order re the taser, dated Nov. 2004.
Pay particular note to #3.
Also, a quick google search reveals that most Taser policies similarly disavow its use as a compliance device, but interestingly UCLA's recently discovered policy apparently allows it.
So the real moral question seems to boil down to "is this okay as a compliance device?" because to some people, it apparently is a little too close to torture for comfort.
_____________
The Taser may be used when a subject is displaying active, aggressive or aggravated aggressive resistance to an officer attempting to conduct legal law enforcement activities (see 6/002.00, Use of Force, for definitions).
The Taser WILL NOT be used:
1. When the officer knows a subject has come in contact with flammable liquids or is in a flammable atmosphere;
2. When the subject is in a position where a fall may cause substantial injury or death;
3. punitively for purposes of coercion, or in an unjustified manner;
4. When a prisoner is handcuffed;
5. To escort or jab individuals;
6. To awaken unconscious or intoxicated individuals; or
7. When the subject is visibly pregnant, unless deadly force is the only other option.
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#302912 - 11/27/06 12:15 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: Chen Zen]
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Member
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
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Also this:
It is from the Seattle PD's procedures on use of less lethal devices (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:e7PkAxnwgd4J:www.se... )
"At the same time, less lethal devices may not be used where statutory requirements
for use of force cannot be satisfied. Examples include use of less lethal devices
against non-combative/non-resistant subjects, or for the purpose of recovering
evidence or compelling compliance, absent suspect resistance justifying the legal
application of necessary force. In no situation are officers required to use less force
than is being threatened by a subject. Less lethal devices provide officers with
alternative resolutions short of the use of deadly force. Factors that may be taken
into account when considering use of these alternatives include, but are not limited
to..."
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#302913 - 11/27/06 09:00 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: aoishi]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
As this question relates the video linked on this thread, the student was asked by the University to leave after failig to show id, thereby establishing their refusal to allow him to protest--regardless of how non-voilent it might have been--so in this particular instance yes the tasing is acceptable.
So it sounds like your saying that tazering is acceptable as a compliance measure. Even if person is non-violent.
Correct?
That is correct, if tasing is within the police department's policy of acceptable guidelines. Even a non-violent protest can break the law. Furthermore, as I stated in my previous post, a constitutional protest has to have permission from the local government and any ogranization in which the protestors wish to utilize. This kid probably had neither, let alone both. Also, the police were called becuase the student was trespassing--he was in the library without their permission.
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#302914 - 11/27/06 09:13 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: aoishi]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
Also, a quick google search reveals that most Taser policies similarly disavow its use as a compliance device, but interestingly UCLA's recently discovered policy apparently allows it.
Then there should be no arguement as to whether the tasing was within guideline proceedures or not. UCLA has apparently found it as a suitable means for compliance.
Quote:
The following is a direct quote from the Las Vegas Police Department's Procedural Order re the taser, dated Nov. 2004.
Pay particular note to #3.
_____________
The Taser may be used when a subject is displaying active, aggressive or aggravated aggressive resistance to an officer attempting to conduct legal law enforcement activities (see 6/002.00, Use of Force, for definitions).
The Taser WILL NOT be used:
1. When the officer knows a subject has come in contact with flammable liquids or is in a flammable atmosphere;
2. When the subject is in a position where a fall may cause substantial injury or death;
3. punitively for purposes of coercion, or in an unjustified manner;
4. When a prisoner is handcuffed;
5. To escort or jab individuals;
6. To awaken unconscious or intoxicated individuals; or
7. When the subject is visibly pregnant, unless deadly force is the only other option.
Yes, but you're missing the point. #3 has two points, so we'll break it down into two section.
Part 1--Coercion--I think we call all agree that the police were not trying to coerce this student. The common definition for coercion is getting a person to behave a certain way. The police were not trying to get him to behave in a particular manner, but rather simply follow their orders.
Part 2--Unjustified manner--The term unjustified manner is vague as I'm sure we might have different opinions on it. However, if you look at the very top of the proceedures it states "The Taser may be used when a subject is displaying active, aggressive or aggravated aggressive resistance to an officer attempting to conduct legal law enforcement activities." This student was actively resisting the officer by defying their orders and refusing to get up. Therefore, the act of tasing would be well within these guidelines by the Las Vegas Police Department.
Quote:
So the real moral question seems to boil down to "is this okay as a compliance device?" because to some people, it apparently is a little too close to torture for comfort.
The problem with this question is there will be no ultimate answer because what is moral to one person might not be to another. Ask a million, a thousand, or even a hundred people and you'll never get a unified answer to this question
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#302915 - 11/27/06 10:08 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: bearich]
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Member
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Then there should be no arguement as to whether the tasing was within guideline proceedures or not. UCLA has apparently found it as a suitable means for compliance.
But it doesn't bother you that other PD's have determined that it is NOT suitable? Shouldn't there be agreement on what is acceptable?
Quote:
Yes, but you're missing the point. #3 has two points, so we'll break it down into two section.
Part 1--Coercion--I think we call all agree that the police were not trying to coerce this student. The common definition for coercion is getting a person to behave a certain way. The police were not trying to get him to behave in a particular manner, but rather simply follow their orders.
That's what "coerce" means. Here's a definition:
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[koh-urs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -erced, -erc‧ing.
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.
2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.
3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.
Quote:
Part 2--Unjustified manner--The term unjustified manner is vague as I'm sure we might have different opinions on it. However, if you look at the very top of the proceedures it states "The Taser may be used when a subject is displaying active, aggressive or aggravated aggressive resistance to an officer attempting to conduct legal law enforcement activities." This student was actively resisting the officer by defying their orders and refusing to get up. Therefore, the act of tasing would be well within these guidelines by the Las Vegas Police Department.
It looked to me like he was passively resisting (e.g. lying down and refusing to get up is not the same as actively resisting. In fact, that is clearly PASSIVE resistance)
Quote:
The problem with this question is there will be no ultimate answer because what is moral to one person might not be to another. Ask a million, a thousand, or even a hundred people and you'll never get a unified answer to this question
So let me ask you then: Is it morally acceptable to inflict tremendous pain on a person to get them to comply with law enforcement orders? What about an order to exit a vehicle after a traffic stop that is similarly ignored. Should it also result in tasering simply to enforce compliance to get subject out of the vehicle?
By the way, here is the definition of torture for your convenience.
tor·ture (tôrchr) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "torture" [P]
n.
1.
1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
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#302916 - 11/27/06 10:26 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: aoishi]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Is it morally acceptable to inflict tremendous pain on a person to get them to comply with law enforcement orders?
yes
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#302917 - 11/27/06 10:37 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: bearich]
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Member
Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
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Quote:
Do you honestly think that the kid would have been tased has he been polite and mature with the officers? Of course not.
That's an interesting thought to explore... if he had nicely and politely persisted in declining to show his state papers, and if, as you claim, they would never have tased a polite person, what would have eventually happened?
Quote:
as stated above it was not a violent attack.
Are you claiming that nearly 200 people have died from acts of non-violence?
Did they just die of old age?
Quote:
don't like the rules of this country or the government then let me ask you respectfully to get out
Homeland Security has issued a new order stating that after January 14th, every citizen will need special permission and clearance from state agents in order to have the liberty to leave our free country. They have also pressured other nations that previously had open immigration laws to clamp down on them considerably. So the system of force that you defend is what prevents me from leaving as you suggest.
It looks like your only remaining option is to tase me. 
Edited by sopwith21 (11/27/06 11:01 AM)
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#302918 - 11/27/06 10:45 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: JoelM]
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Member
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Quote:
Is it morally acceptable to inflict tremendous pain on a person to get them to comply with law enforcement orders?
yes
What about this part: What about an order to exit a vehicle after a traffic stop that is similarly ignored. Should it also result in tasering simply to enforce compliance to get subject out of the vehicle?
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#302919 - 11/27/06 10:50 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: JoelM]
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Member
Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
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Quote:
Quote:
Is it morally acceptable to inflict tremendous pain on a person to get them to comply with law enforcement orders?
yes
Is it acceptable to kill them?
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