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22740 Members
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35473 Topics
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Max Online: 307 @ 02/21/13 09:36 AM
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#302920 - 11/27/06 10:51 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: Chen Zen]
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Member
Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
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Quote:
It doesnt necessarily make it right, however, would it be right without the police or to let the man continue to tread upon the rights of others?
How does one man have the "right" to use violent force to coerce another to perform an act against his will?
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#302921 - 11/27/06 10:55 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: aoishi]
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Member
Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
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Quote:
It looked to me like he was passively resisting
Turbulent calm.
Luminescent darkness.
Passive resistance.
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#302922 - 11/27/06 11:01 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: aoishi]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
What about this part: What about an order to exit a vehicle after a traffic stop that is similarly ignored. Should it also result in tasering simply to enforce compliance to get subject out of the vehicle?
yes
What do you want the officers to do?Stand there and wait 3 hours until the person finally decides to get out of the car?
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#302923 - 11/27/06 11:02 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: sopwith21]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Is it morally acceptable to inflict tremendous pain on a person to get them to comply with law enforcement orders?
yes
Is it acceptable to kill them?
I would say no.
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#302924 - 11/27/06 11:03 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: sopwith21]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
It looked to me like he was passively resisting
Turbulent calm.
Luminescent darkness.
Passive resistance.
Breaking the law.
Disobeying police orders.
Inciting a riot.
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#302925 - 11/27/06 11:06 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: sopwith21]
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Member
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
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You think the term "passive resistance" is meaningless. But the distinction is important.
A protester who has chosen to do a "sit-in" and refuses to move will be "passively resisting" if they do not volunteer to get up and move but also do not prevent police from moving them.
Another type of non-violent resistance would be more "active resistance" and in my usage would connote a range of options from grabbing stationary objects and hanging on, to locking yourself in place or with other people, etc.
Now, "violent resistance" (as I use it) would mean using physical violence AGAINST the arrester to prevent being moved. This, in my opinion, is the only one of types that should be MET with the type of pain and violence you see in the UCLA incident.
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#302926 - 11/27/06 11:26 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: JoelM]
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Member
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
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Quote:
yes
What do you want the officers to do?Stand there and wait 3 hours until the person finally decides to get out of the car?
Thanks for the straight response.
So should it be the policy that all protesters now be tasered as soon as they refuse to obey an order by the police to move?
That would seem consistent with your opinion.
Edited by aoishi (11/27/06 11:27 AM)
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#302927 - 11/27/06 11:38 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: aoishi]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
But it doesn't bother you that other PD's have determined that it is NOT suitable? Shouldn't there be agreement on what is acceptable?
No. What one police department finds acceptable has nothing to do with what another police department finds acceptable. We're all people of different mindsets and beliefs--if we all conformed to the same standards for police proceedures, why stop there? Why not have standard for having to have children? After all, don't you find it scary that some people out in the world do? The point is, just because you or I may not agree with something doesn't mean there needs to be a standard.
And ultimately, most police chief positions are usually voted into office. So to an extent, the police polices and proceedures are somewhat determined by the voters (or lack thereof).
Quote:
That's what "coerce" means. Here's a definition:
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[koh-urs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -erced, -erc‧ing.
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.
2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.
3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.
The problem with going soley by the definition is that you have to rememberthat police are often alloted ammeninties in preventing crimes and arresting offenders. How many times do you see undercover officers purchasing crack/cocaine from dealers in order to set up a sting? Surely the purchasing of said drugs is illegal, why aren't the undercovers arrested then?
Under the Fourteenth Amendment it is stated that "[T]he Fourteenth Amendment permits the States a wide scope of discretion in enacting laws which affect some groups of citizens differently than others. The constitutional safeguard is offended only if the classification rests on grounds wholly irrelevant to the achievement of the State's objective. State legislatures are presumed to have acted within their constitutional power despite the fact that, in practice, their laws result in some inequality. A statutory discrimination will not be set aside if any state of facts reasonably may be conceived to justify it."14th Amendment-Police Power Regulation
In summary its defined as being unconstitutional if it is "wholly irrelevant to the achievement to the objective" and "if any state of facts reasonably may be conceived to justify it" are not met.
As I have said before, tasing was probably over the line for this particular instance, but since it's within their policies and proceedures, and it met both the above criteria, I see no problem with it being used as a compliance method.
Quote:
It looked to me like he was passively resisting (e.g. lying down and refusing to get up is not the same as actively resisting. In fact, that is clearly PASSIVE resistance)
Not so. Here is the definition of passive:
1. not reacting visibly to something that might be expected to produce manifestations of an emotion or feeling.
2. not participating readily or actively; inactive: a passive member of a committee.
3. not involving visible reaction or active participation: to play a passive role.
4. inert or quiescent.
5. influenced, acted upon, or affected by some external force, cause, or agency; being the object of action rather than causing action (opposed to active).
6. receiving or characterized by the reception of impressions or influences from external sources.
7. produced or caused by an external agency.
The problem with this is a genuine lack of action on the part of the passive object, however when ordered to stand up, the student proceeded to shout "[censored] you!" multiple times. This does not prove he was passive--this shows he was beligerent and bull headed.
If you look specifically at definition #5, it states that passive objects are the objects of action rather than causing the action. By refusing to comply with the orders to stand, despite the warning he would be tased, he created the action to tasing to occur. Had he arisen he would not have been tased--hence he created the action.
Quote:
So let me ask you then: Is it morally acceptable to inflict tremendous pain on a person to get them to comply with law enforcement orders? What about an order to exit a vehicle after a traffic stop that is similarly ignored. Should it also result in tasering simply to enforce compliance to get subject out of the vehicle?
Once again, when you speak of morality we'll all have seperate opinions and beliefs. But to answer you're questions, no I do not find it acceptable to inflict tremendous amounts of pain in order to get a compliance out of a subject. However, since most tasers are only fired for a few seconds, I feel that they do not inflict tremdous amounts of pain. Do they over a brief period, maybe, I can't say since I've never been tased before, but I still find them acceptable as long as they're used appropriately (and by appropriately I mean by each police department's policy and proceedures).
Quote:
By the way, here is the definition of torture for your convenience.
tor·ture (tôrchr) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "torture" [P]
n.
1.
1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
Thanks. Here's the definition of compliance for ya 
compliance/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhm-plahy-uhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act of conforming, acquiescing, or yielding.
2. a tendency to yield readily to others, esp. in a weak and subservient way.
3. conformity; accordance: in compliance with orders.
4. cooperation or obedience: Compliance with the law is expected of all.
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#302928 - 11/27/06 11:44 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: sopwith21]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
That's an interesting thought to explore... if he had nicely and politely persisted in declining to show his state papers, and if, as you claim, they would never have tased a polite person, what would have eventually happened?
I honestly don't know. And unfortunately neither will we since it didn't happen. But I imagine that had he been polite and mature, he would have been escorted out of the building, possibly in handcuffs for the officers' precautionary safety, and then lead down to the station where he would have been booked. Like I said, just speculation. . .
Quote:
Are you claiming that nearly 200 people have died from acts of non-violence?
Did they just die of old age?
So should be ban cars too? I mean how many people have automobile related deaths per year?
Quote:
Homeland Security has issued a new order stating that after January 14th, every citizen will need special permission and clearance from state agents in order to have the liberty to leave our free country. They have also pressured other nations that previously had open immigration laws to clamp down on them considerably. So the system of force that you defend is what prevents me from leaving as you suggest.
It looks like your only remaining option is to tase me.
As I stated in a previous post that statement was a broad generalization. But the point still remains, we live in a country that lets us do something if we don't agree with it. We can vote people out of office, hold protests (yes these often have to be arranged to be constitutionally protected), and so on. That was the point of my statement. Apologizes if I offended.
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#302929 - 11/27/06 11:52 AM
Re: opinions on taser case
[Re: bearich]
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Member
Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
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Thanks for helping to reduce the nastiness in this thread with your level tone. Much appreciated.
I think, for me, it comes down to the fact that I do not want police officers to behave in the manner I saw on the 6 min. long UCLA video. And to the extent that as a tax-paying citizen I have anything to say about it, I do not support that level of "use of Force" continuum. What I saw was an idealistic, bull-headed, petulant boy (probably angered over 3 years of muslim-bashing) who got in over his head, wasn't offered a reasonable out and then was unecessarily roughed up for the charge of "contempt of cop".
ON EDIT: Actually it was way worse than being "roughed up". If you have not watched the 6 minute video, I do not think it is fair to offer an opinion. I watched as much as I could stomach and had to stop actually. The boy screaming "I'll leave! I'll leave! I'm not resisting!" and still being zapped after that. The screams were truly horrific. I just don't think that's okay and I don't want that as a society. It meets my definition of torture, sorry. It was unecessary.
Edited by aoishi (11/27/06 11:58 AM)
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