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#302950 - 11/29/06 02:36 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
bearich Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
Quote:

In cases where someone deliberately pointed an automobile at a person who not harmed the life or property of another, and killed them as a result of their aggression, then yes, you have a good point. But we both know that's not what happened 42,000 times last year so let's not attempt to mix deliberate acts of aggression with accidents.




Okay, just for my clarity you seem to believe that all 200 deaths were due to acts of aggression correct? And that because of that, they should be more-or-less outlawed correct?

Using the road related death statistics mentioned before, let's say 1% of those deaths were caused by aggression, whether intentional or the driver was merely caught up in a temporary case of road rage and didn't mean it (but it was still aggression that caused it)--that's still 420 deaths a year by aggressive driving.

Once again, do we outlaw driving? After all, it's more than likely to kill than tasers with only 1% of all road related deaths being caused by aggression. Or do we let the benefits outweigh the potential abuse?

Now bringing it back to tasers--do we outlaw tasers because of those deaths, or do we continue to allow them because of the benefits they bring society?

Remember, every time the police tase someone, substitute that with a more leathal/aggresive action, like shooting the law breaker, and tell me which you would perfer? Because after all, from what I gather, you seem to believe they fall under the same act of aggression.

How many times have tasers been used to subdue law breakers without the person losing their life? While I don't have that information, I can share this piece: In Phoenix, AZ, the number of police related shooting has practically been cut in half as the use of taser related incidents has increased (slightly over double the number of incidents). Phoenix Taser Report

Quote:

If the law requires that a person who has not harmed the life or property of another be violently assaulted, then the law is wrong and people of moral integrity have a responsibility and a duty to disobey it.




Correct, however this incident in question, the student harmed the property of UCLA by breaking their rules and causing a distrubance. I'm not going to address the portion about being violently assaulted as it is clear we both have different definitions of the word violence.


Quote:

No matter who you are or how many badges you have, you can only initiate violence against so many people before someone, somewhere puts a stop to it. Every time aggression is initiated against another individual, you have added another person to the list. You can blame them, hide behind a badge, claim that some law somewhere is in your favor, or say anything you like but one simple fact remains - if you initiate violence against enough people for a long time, somewhere, somehow, someone WILL put a stop to it.




Originally I was not going to comment on this because of the how absurd I think it is, but the more I think about it, the more I have to comment.

Let me get this straight--the police initiated the violence??? I'm sorry, but I thought it was the student who tresspassed on to the library property, the student who disobeyed police orders, and the student who refused to comply even after being warned that he would be tased multiple times before the tasing occured. You're right, the police are the ones to blame.

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#302951 - 11/29/06 04:12 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: bearich]
bearich Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
I just stumbled upon a great article in TIME magazine that I think fits this debate well. The article, How We Confuse Real Risks with Exaggerated Ones, is about how we allow our emotions over rule certain threats as we grow more concerned with others.

Some quotes from it:

When our emotions overtake our reasoning we worry about sensational events which are statistically unlikely to harm us such as airline disasters, shark attacks, or terrorism rather than everyday dangers that kill thousands.

. . .Princeton professor Daniel Kahneman coined "the availability heuristic": the concept that if people can think of an incident in which a risk has come to fruition, they will exaggerate its likelihood.

&

Nassim Taleb, a probability expert at the University of Massachusetts, says the first step to better risk assessment is understanding that most dramatic news images represent the exception rather than the rule.


Link: Article

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#302952 - 11/29/06 04:56 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: bearich]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

When our emotions overtake our reasoning we worry about sensational events which are statistically unlikely to harm us such as airline disasters, shark attacks, or terrorism rather than everyday dangers that kill thousands.


Might as well not wear a seatbelt
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#302953 - 11/29/06 06:24 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: bearich]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

I just stumbled upon a great article in TIME magazine that I think fits this debate well. The article, How We Confuse Real Risks with Exaggerated Ones, is about how we allow our emotions over rule certain threats as we grow more concerned with others.

Some quotes from it:

When our emotions overtake our reasoning we worry about sensational events which are statistically unlikely to harm us such as airline disasters, shark attacks, or terrorism rather than everyday dangers that kill thousands.

. . .Princeton professor Daniel Kahneman coined "the availability heuristic": the concept that if people can think of an incident in which a risk has come to fruition, they will exaggerate its likelihood.

&

Nassim Taleb, a probability expert at the University of Massachusetts, says the first step to better risk assessment is understanding that most dramatic news images represent the exception rather than the rule.


Link: Article




This fits well with my above comment about police perceiving things differently than ordinary citizens and doing things that might not seem "rational" based on the circumstances with which they must deal.

A few examples....

1. I had a citizen ride-along in my car a few years ago. I was driving and chatting, trying to give some insight to our job and what we might encounter during our shift. We got a call of shots fired in a local neighborhood and (of course) I hit the gas...hard . The lady riding with me grabs her door handle and braces herself as she has no idea what it was that we were responding to . I tell her we are going to someone shooting a gun. Her response? "Whyyy..are we going over there?" It was inconceivable to her that we would actually drive toward the gunshots when we were perfectly safe just driving around listening to the radio.

2. Another friend of mine in an unmarked patrol car (with red and blue lights) makes a traffic stop on a guy involved in a road rage incident where he got out and beat on someone else's car at a redlight. The guy refuses to stop and leads them on a short chase before stopping in a convenience store parking lot. He then gets out and runs around his car before crouching down and pulling something out of his waistline. My friend draws his gun thinking he is pulling out a weapon. The guy pulls out the object and points it at the officer. It was a cell phone. My buddy's reluctance to shoot saved the driver's life but could have cost him his own if he had gambled wrong. It would have been a riteous shoot.
_________________________
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#302954 - 11/29/06 06:42 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: Fletch1]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good lord, that idiot will never realize how lucky he was that the cop didn't shoot him dead right there.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#302955 - 11/29/06 07:29 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:


Why not?

If the continued inflicting of tremendous pain (commonly known as torture) is acceptable in order to force a free citizen in a free country to obey the dictates of the state, death is merely a natural extension of that same process.



Ummmm, no.

Quote:

Why is this same principle fair, just and righteous up to the point of death but unacceptable if it causes death?




Because in this country we have the right to live. Our right to be pain-free is given up when we begin resisting police officers.

Quote:

And if any logic can be assigned to that position,




You must be using a very loose definition of logic

Quote:

then surely officers around the nation would demand the banning of tasers because they've killed nearly two hundred people who defied the state's orders.



200 out of likely tens of thousands that have avoided being shot or otherwise permanently injured.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#302956 - 11/30/06 11:45 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

In the middle of arresting someone resisting, the officer is supposed to stop, and give you his/her badge number?



If the law require an officer to produce his badge number upon request, are you suggesting that the officer break the law? And if he does break the law, what moral authority does one criminal have to arrest another?

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#302957 - 11/30/06 11:52 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Quote:

In the middle of arresting someone resisting, the officer is supposed to stop, and give you his/her badge number?



If the law require an officer to produce his badge number upon request, are you suggesting that the officer break the law? And if he does break the law, what moral authority does one criminal have to arrest another?




Note AGAIN how you avoid answering my question. I gave a very reasonable answer to your question already. You keep repeating an obviously idiotic point. The officer is not breaking the law if he is in the middle of doing his duty, restraining a suspect. You can get the badge number when he's done.

How about answering my question now.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#302958 - 11/30/06 11:55 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: Fletch1]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

It seems that you are arguing simply to argue.



I am opposing aggression regardless of who commits it. I wish you would, too.
Quote:

What if another officer needs help and is getting beaten up while officer Joe and officer Bob are carrying someone who has decided to "passively resist"? What if officer Bob injures himself trying to carry a "passive resister" and cannot respond to help a fellow officer who has been badly injured himself?



Why are Bob and his friends attacking someone who has not harmed the life or property of another in the first place? If they could manage to live in peace with the rest of us they wouldn't have to worry about getting beat up or injuring their backs while initiating force against a person who has not harmed anyone else.
Quote:

This is the assumption of risk clause taken to the next level.

"I certify and declare that I have been advised and duly considered the consequences of my actions. I understand that physically resisting the cops either actively or passively is a hazardous practice that will likely result in a great degree of physical discomfort on my part. I acknowledge that this physical discomfort can be experienced in the form of bending a twisting of my limbs and appendages, blunt force trauma from being taken down and/or struck with impact weapons, facial and eye irritation from OC Pepper spray, shocking from a Taser or being shot with a firearm. I do fully accept the risks listed here as the possible and likely consequences of my actions and take full responsibility holding noone liable but myself."





Here's another assumption of risk clause to consider:

I certify and declare that I have been advised and duly considered the consequences of my actions. I understand that initiating force against another human being is likely to get me shot, killed, injured or maimed. Such injury is strictly due to my own insistence in initiating violence against another human being and cannot be absolved by any badge or court or law, and I richly deserve any injury I receive during an attempt to initiate force against a person who has not harmed the life or property of another. As a mature adult I accept responsibility for my actions and will make no attempt to justify my violent nature and accept any injury that I receive during such actions as justice.

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#302959 - 11/30/06 12:08 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: bearich]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Okay, just for my clarity you seem to believe that all 200 deaths were due to acts of aggression correct?



Do police us tasers against subjects armed with deadly weapons? Of course not. They use firearms in such encounters. Tasers are used primarily against unarmed people. And yes, I consider an attack against an unarmed person as an act of aggression. Were police not involved in our analogy, I bet you would, too.
Quote:

do we outlaw tasers because of those deaths, or do we continue to allow them because of the benefits they bring society?



The Second Amendment prohibits outlawing weapons for private ownership. I am suggesting that they be banned from police use.
Quote:

Remember, every time the police tase someone, substitute that with a more leathal/aggresive action, like shooting



I'd prefer to substitute it with a less lethal action. Like leaving people alone unless they have harmed the life or property of another.
Quote:

we both have different definitions of the word violence.



I consider shooting someone with a projectile that delivers 50,000 volts of electricity causing immense pain, disability, possible death and a disruption of the central nervous system to be a violent act. Call me crazy.

Have you ever been shot with one... or perhaps three? Could the experience have any effect on your re-definition of "violence?"
Quote:

Let me get this straight--the police initiated the violence?



Did the student tase the police, or did the police tase the student? Did the student demand state papers from the police, or did the police demand state papers from the student? Did the student initiate a confrontation with police, or did police approach the student?

I can't wait to hear the verbal gymnastics on this one.

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