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#302890 - 11/25/06 07:18 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

I could have sworn that the police are people, too. Don't people have rights?



They do not have the right to assault a peaceful person whose greatest "crime" is not producing his state papers.
Quote:

AGAIN, all he had to do was produce ID or leave. He did neither, and suffered the consequences.



And all the police had to do was leave a peaceful man alone. They chose to attack him instead.
Quote:

it is not unreasonable for institutions to make demands for entrance into certain places. 'Please show your ID' is not unreasonable.



The person who was assaulted might disagree. He also might be of the opinion that he has the right to peacefully stand on his own land without producing state papers.
Quote:

Why can't you agree that the guy was being immature and disrespectful?



If the police had been disrespectful to the student, would you have supported the student's right to violently assault the police?

Didn't think so.

So in reality, whether he was immature and disrespectful is utterly irrelevent. The fact remains that it is morally indefensible to violently assault a person who has not harmed the life or property of another.
Quote:

So he owned the university? I have an idea! Why don't you walk into the White House unannounced? It's PUBLIC, right? Go ahead, it should be no problem whatsoever.



Yes, he owns the university. And yes, you should be able to walk right into your White House unannounced. That was common for over 125 years. The doors to the White House were quite literally open to anyone and everyone. Grover Cleveland would routinely have a cigar across the street at a nearby hotel and speak with strangers, who would later pop in at the White House for dinner or an evening of conversation.

Cleveland - and nearly every other president for over a century - knew that the White House was not government property, it was the people's property, and he was a temporary guest on their land.

We seem to have forgotten that now.
Quote:

You apparently have never heard of 'trespassing'. You see, when you are on someone's property, and they don't want you there.......oh the hell with it. Look it up yourself.



How can you trespass on your own land?


On a sadder note, it is disgraceful to see the extent to which we will go to justify violently attacking people who have harmed no one.

That's really what all this is about. You are reaching out for some sort of absolution that will justify a violent, potentially deadly attack on a person who had done nothing to anyone. A badge, a rule, a law, a bureaucrat, an agency... ANYTHING that will permit you to violently assault others and still be able to face yourself in the mirror. But no such absolution exists. It is wrong. It is immoral. No rule, bureaucrat or badge can make it right. The fact that anyone would support such malicious violence is frightening. It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.

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#302891 - 11/25/06 08:17 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: Chen Zen]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

My God, some guy gets tased and everyone gets all emotional.



I hesitate to dismiss crime so lightly. Tasers are deadly weapons that frequently kill. Nearly 200 taser murders have been committed in the US alone with 61 of the killings occuring just last year, largely against unarmed or lightly armed people (if a suspect has a firearm, police respond with firearms, not tasers).

I also hesitate to quietly ignore violent acts against people who have not harmed anyone else. I believe there is a a moral duty to stand up against this sort of aggression.

You're right, it was only one incident, but it is not unique and I believe that our right to be free from violent attack is only as good as our neighbor's. For that reason I believe people - and police officers, above all - should stand firmly against such violence regardless of who commits it.

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#302892 - 11/25/06 09:58 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Soppywith,

Has it occurred to you that the use of ID in public buildings, and indeed the enforcement of rules are for everyone's safety - including yours?

Thought not.
Sharon
_________________________
Anyone mind if I sit down?

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#302893 - 11/25/06 11:27 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
bearich Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
Well I was going to stay out of this "debate" but it's just gotten so ridiculous that I have to comment on some of the latest:


Quote:


They do not have the right to assault a peaceful person whose greatest "crime" is not producing his state papers.




First off, unless you deeply and personally know this man who was tasered you cannot comment that his "greatest crime" was not producing valid ID. You don't know if as a juvenile he set a house of fire or even robbed a bank last week.


Quote:

And all the police had to do was leave a peaceful man alone. They chose to attack him instead.




Which I'm sure they did. I highly doubt they walked in there tasers drawn ready to shoot the first person they saw. Also, I don't know if we saw the same video or not, but at the very beginning the "victim" was loudly shouting "Get your <expletive delted> hands off of me!" Yeah sounds like he was really willing to cooperate with them. Futhermore, before each additional tasing the police asked him to comply with their orders two or three times, even notating that he would be shocked again if he didn't comply--but he refused to--and got shocked again. Can't tell me you're suprised about that. It was probably this disrespectful and beligerent attitude that got him in this situation in the first place.

Doesn't exactly sound like he was being too cooperative to me. What do you expect the police to do in situtions like this, just sit there with an uncomplying suspect and see who has to get up to use the bathroom first???


Quote:

The person who was assaulted might disagree. He also might be of the opinion that he has the right to peacefully stand on his own land without producing state papers.




Which is why he is more than willing to address it at a school board meeting, to the student government body, writing a letter to the dean, or many of the other student organizations and affilates he has access too. Heck, the vast majority of colleges in America even have some form of student law services which he could have utilized for litigation against the library if he felt so strongly against displaying student ID.


Quote:


If the police had been disrespectful to the student, would you have supported the student's right to violently assault the police?

Didn't think so




In a word--yes. However that was not the case for one simple reason--it was not a violent assualt. The kid was asked numerous times to comply before each tasing to which he did not. How many muggers are you going to encounter on the street asking you to comply with handing over your wallet before they attack? Probably just once. And said muggers are probably not going to be brandishing tasers, but rather more lethal weapons such as blades and guns.

As stated above, you can clearly hear the police asking multiple times before tasing him. Second, you cannot compare apples and oranges in this situation.


Quote:

So in reality, whether he was immature and disrespectful is utterly irrelevent. The fact remains that it is morally indefensible to violently assault a person who has not harmed the life or property of another.




Incorrect. His attitude and demeanor dictated how the police responded. Had he been respectful and mature the situation probably would have not escalated to the point it did. Do you honestly think that the kid would have been tased has he been polite and mature with the officers? Of course not.

Furthermore, he did not own the property. As much as you would like to think that the term "public property" means he owns it, alas it does not. Public property means it's open to the public, not that they own it. If public property means that everyone owns it, then by this same arguement the librarian would own it too. She asked for ID before entering her property and he refused. Being on someone else's property without their consent--isn't this the standard definition for tresspassing?

On top of that, open to the public does not mean that you're allowed to do whatever you want while on it. If you don't believe me, go to your closest public library and walk around naked. Why not? You're allowed to walk around your house naked, why not a library; which as you put it, is yours as well.


Quote:

Yes, he owns the university. And yes, you should be able to walk right into your White House unannounced. That was common for over 125 years. The doors to the White House were quite literally open to anyone and everyone. Grover Cleveland would routinely have a cigar across the street at a nearby hotel and speak with strangers, who would later pop in at the White House for dinner or an evening of conversation.

Cleveland - and nearly every other president for over a century - knew that the White House was not government property, it was the people's property, and he was a temporary guest on their land.

We seem to have forgotten that now.




While I've already address the issue of his "ownership" I'd like to point out the issue of merely walking into the White House. The reasons you cannot walk into the White is #1--you don't own it as already address above, and #2--the world we live in today is vastly different than it was 125 years ago. Today we have things like terrorists, machine guns, armor piercing rounds, and nuclear bombs. How many of those were around 125 years ago? It's not that we forgot, it's that we now have a greater need to protect ourselves.

Taking this back to the incident in question--the library has a set of standards and rules in place so everyone there knows they can be a bit safer knowing that the person sitting next to them is a UCLA student as well and not some homeless vagrant off the street who might be high on drugs. When this student refused to show ID he violated the potential safety of all students and personnel in the library, which is why the police were called.

Yes you could say that the college has right to protect all their students, but since this kid in question did not produce any student ID they had no way of knowing he was a student of their facility. Furthermore, as it has been stated multiple times, he refused to comply with the police only compounding the situation for him.


Quote:

How can you trespass on your own land?




Once again, not his land.


Quote:

On a sadder note, it is disgraceful to see the extent to which we will go to justify violently attacking people who have harmed no one.




While you may feel this way I personally find it saddening to see the extent people will go to justify the actions of those "victims" while putting responsibility of the end result merely upon the police and other law enforcement officers. Furthermore, as stated above it was not a violent attack. A violent attack would be the police putting a bullet or two in his leg(s).

Remember that old physics theorum--"Each action has an equal and opposite reaction" Don't like the reaction from the police--don't cause the initial action. Problem solved.

Quote:

That's really what all this is about. You are reaching out for some sort of absolution that will justify a violent, potentially deadly attack on a person who had done nothing to anyone. A badge, a rule, a law, a bureaucrat, an agency... ANYTHING that will permit you to violently assault others and still be able to face yourself in the mirror. But no such absolution exists. It is wrong. It is immoral. No rule, bureaucrat or badge can make it right. The fact that anyone would support such malicious violence is frightening. It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.




No, what this is about is people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions and trying to shift blame to the men and women of law enforcement. I honesty wonder what makes these hard working men and women go out each and every day and put their lives on the line for people who have absolutely no respect for the sacrifice and commitment they are taking to protect your life.

And yes, tasers can be deadly, however they are not marketed as being completely safe and painless. Which is why you don't see them advertised to kids on Sunday morning cartoons. Ask any law enforcement officer what category tasers fall under and you'll be given something to the extent of a "less lethal" device. Not non-lethal, but less lethal. Can it still kill someone, sure. But it's better off getting someone to comply than putting a bullet in them, isn't it?

Bottom line--don't like the rules of this country or the government then let me ask you respectfully to get out--there are plenty of other people who want in.

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#302894 - 11/25/06 11:37 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: bearich]
MattJ Online   happy
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
bearich -

Thank you. I was getting tired of having to rebut Sopwith's ridiculous points.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#302895 - 11/26/06 01:50 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
JAD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Michigan, USA
I you define "hurt" as merely causing pain, yes. Remember though, the police are charged with the task of enforcing rules to maintain order in our society. They are given this power by the citizens of this country by voting in the local police chief, sheriff, etc. who is ultimately held responsible for any abuses of this public trust. If you feel you have an issue with what transpired, there are many ways to redress this within the system. If you don't make use of these tools the system provides, I'll just assume you only want to complain. What have you done about it besides this forum?

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#302896 - 11/26/06 07:52 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: bearich]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
you know matt, im actually agreeing with sopwith somewhat.

Quote:

First off, unless you deeply and personally know this man who was tasered you cannot comment that his "greatest crime" was not producing valid ID. You don't know if as a juvenile he set a house of fire or even robbed a bank last week.



No, and what the hell does that have to do with anything? stupid comment.
Quote:

Also, I don't know if we saw the same video or not, but at the very beginning the "victim" was loudly shouting "Get your <expletive delted> hands off of me!" Yeah sounds like he was really willing to cooperate with them. Futhermore, before each additional tasing the police asked him to comply with their orders two or three times, even notating that he would be shocked again if he didn't comply--but he refused to--and got shocked again. Can't tell me you're suprised about that. It was probably this disrespectful and beligerent attitude that got him in this situation in the first place.



what a load of [censored]. If he told them to "get your hands off me" it probably indicated it scared him. This guy could have been having a adhd physcho or something for all they know. And when he was on the floor they shouldnt have tazed him, even though that guy said before that it was better than using wristlocks due to liability in court, but they should have recognised he meant no harm and could just have been scared stiff. He did nothing, making some noise in a library doesnt warrant being "extremely painfully electrocuted" as that guy said before. If they REALLY had to remove him, they should have just grabbed his arms and pulled him out, or handcuffed him while he was on the floor.

Quote:


Which is why he is more than willing to address it at a school board meeting, to the student government body, writing a letter to the dean, or many of the other student organizations and affilates he has access too. Heck, the vast majority of colleges in America even have some form of student law services which he could have utilized for litigation against the library if he felt so strongly against displaying student ID.



Write a letter? ...no. As far as refusing to show i.d , we dont now what happened, they could have started being [censored] to him, he might have been a regular visitor who everyone knew etc. We didnt see that so we cant comment. we only saw him being tased, with a " apparently hes getting his ass zapped because he didnt show id" . So no more comments about that please.

Quote:

In a word--yes. However that was not the case for one simple reason--it was not a violent assualt. The kid was asked numerous times to comply before each tasing to which he did not. How many muggers are you going to encounter on the street asking you to comply with handing over your wallet before they attack? Probably just once. And said muggers are probably not going to be brandishing tasers, but rather more lethal weapons such as blades and guns.


Wrong, it was a violent assault. and as i said before he might have been too scared to get up etc, there are many reasons. And a guy doesnt scream "LEAVE ME ALONE" at the top of his voice, without some sort of problem, the cops there should have thought of that.
Quote:

Incorrect. His attitude and demeanor dictated how the police responded. Had he been respectful and mature the situation probably would have not escalated to the point it did. Do you honestly think that the kid would have been tased has he been polite and mature with the officers? Of course not.

Furthermore, he did not own the property. As much as you would like to think that the term "public property" means he owns it, alas it does not. Public property means it's open to the public, not that they own it. If public property means that everyone owns it, then by this same arguement the librarian would own it too. She asked for ID before entering her property and he refused. Being on someone else's property without their consent--isn't this the standard definition for tresspassing?

On top of that, open to the public does not mean that you're allowed to do whatever you want while on it. If you don't believe me, go to your closest public library and walk around naked. Why not? You're allowed to walk around your house naked, why not a library; which as you put it, is yours as well.



His attitude was the way it was because he was anrgy that he got tazed, or maybe its just my medical condition theory, either way it doesnt have much to do with this.
as far as being naked in your house, its allowed, but since its a PUBLIC library, your not allowed, just like walking around naked in the streets. All in all, the police should have assed the situation as 1/10 dangerousness, they failed, they responded as if it were 5/10 dangerousness.

Quote:

While you may feel this way I personally find it saddening to see the extent people will go to justify the actions of those "victims" while putting responsibility of the end result merely upon the police and other law enforcement officers. Furthermore, as stated above it was not a violent attack. A violent attack would be the police putting a bullet or two in his leg(s).

Remember that old physics theorum--"Each action has an equal and opposite reaction" Don't like the reaction from the police--don't cause the initial action. Problem solved.



1, thats a load of bs. 2, there was no "equal" reaction. He did something wrong, no doubt, but the police used the "hit us and we will hit back 100000 times harder" strategy.
Quote:

No, what this is about is people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions and trying to shift blame to the men and women of law enforcement. I honesty wonder what makes these hard working men and women go out each and every day and put their lives on the line for people who have absolutely no respect for the sacrifice and commitment they are taking to protect your life.



more bs.

Quote:

And yes, tasers can be deadly, however they are not marketed as being completely safe and painless. Which is why you don't see them advertised to kids on Sunday morning cartoons. Ask any law enforcement officer what category tasers fall under and you'll be given something to the extent of a "less lethal" device. Not non-lethal, but less lethal. Can it still kill someone, sure. But it's better off getting someone to comply than putting a bullet in them, isn't it?



yeah thanks, how about the "nonletha;" catagory. Such as handcuffs? hmm?
Quote:

Bottom line--don't like the rules of this country or the government then let me ask you respectfully to get out--there are plenty of other people who want in




moooore bs, that still doesnt make it right. I cant just pop a cap in someones head if they walk into my house now can i?
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#302897 - 11/26/06 11:24 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
aeclark82 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Davenport, IA, USA
I think I'll take a stab at a debate for once. I've viewed a few videos on the topic. And unfortunately, the videos were very biased (one was an interview with a UCLA Student Reporter, and the other was with the "victims" attourney.)

Personally, I think both parties were in the wrong.. to an extent.

The police might have tasered the student a few too many times though. I assist law enforcement officers quite often and have seen numerous instances where the suspect goes limp and the officers literally pick him up by his arms and drag him to their patrol vehicle(s). The thing that really disturbs me is when the other students asked for the officers identifications, the officers threatend them. This was completely uncalled for!

Obviously the student was in the wrong for not furnishing his ID when asked. Sure the campus is publicly accesible property, but the library obvviously has some sort of restricted access. In the US,try and go to an airport terminal (publicly accessible property) without a ticket.. you'll be denied. And if you act like this guy did, you'll be in a world of trouble.

The victim was immature (as evident by the tantrum he threw.) In my experience, immature people are more likely to act and react on their emotions before reason.

However, none of us know the entire story. We can only speculate what happened "behind the scenes".
_________________________
Obligation, Justice, Courage... HONOR!

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#302898 - 11/26/06 11:57 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: crablord]
bearich Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
Quote:

No, and what the hell does that have to do with anything? stupid comment.




The point of the comment was that sopwith stated that the kid that got tased greatest crime was only entering a library without showing ID. I was merely trying to show he cannot make this assessment because he more than likely does not know the kid, which it appears you agree with.


Quote:

what a load of [censored]. If he told them to "get your hands off me" it probably indicated it scared him. This guy could have been having a adhd physcho or something for all they know. And when he was on the floor they shouldnt have tazed him, even though that guy said before that it was better than using wristlocks due to liability in court, but they should have recognised he meant no harm and could just have been scared stiff. He did nothing, making some noise in a library doesnt warrant being "extremely painfully electrocuted" as that guy said before. If they REALLY had to remove him, they should have just grabbed his arms and pulled him out, or handcuffed him while he was on the floor.




You're right making noise in a library doesn't equate to being tased. However that was not the case. He was tased because he didn't comply with police orders. Was tasing over the line--probably. Is it within the police's right--more than likely.

However, I highly doubt that he was scared if he was cognitive enough to yell to the officers "[censored] you!" multiple times. Sounds like someone who's more angry than scared. A scared person would have a tremble in their voice or even cry. I didn't hear or see either of those in the video.


Quote:

Write a letter? ...no. As far as refusing to show i.d , we dont now what happened, they could have started being [censored] to him, he might have been a regular visitor who everyone knew etc. We didnt see that so we cant comment. we only saw him being tased, with a " apparently hes getting his ass zapped because he didnt show id" . So no more comments about that please.




First off, if he was a regular than he would know that he had to show id to get in. Furthermore, if he was a regular at the library I'm sure the librarian would have recognized him and let him slip by without ID. But instead she called the police, indicating she did not know who the student was.

Furthermore, he was not tased for showing ID, but rather tased for not complying with police orders as stated numerous times before.

But I will grant you one point--we don't know what happened. We don't know what happened up to the situation and we don't know what happened during the video (as it was mostly audio). We don't know the actions of the librarian, the police or the student. Unless you were there when it happened all of us are speculating and assuming from the shoddy video on youtube.

Let me ask you this, why is writing a letter to the dean or student body president so far out of line? Would it make an immediate difference, probably not, but if he felt so strongly about entering the library without showing ID than he could have taken the civil route and wrote a letter before he ever started to break the library's rules.


Quote:

Wrong, it was a violent assault. and as i said before he might have been too scared to get up etc, there are many reasons. And a guy doesnt scream "LEAVE ME ALONE" at the top of his voice, without some sort of problem, the cops there should have thought of that.




Or he didn't want to comply with the police. There are countless reasons that he could be shouting at the police--scared, rebellion, etc. We're all assuming on this point. The bottom line is he did not comply with police orders so they did what they felt was right for the situation they were in to resolve the issue.

And before you go off stating that they abused their power remember they also had to deal with not only this kid, but also a small mob forming around the situation.


Quote:

His attitude was the way it was because he was anrgy that he got tazed, or maybe its just my medical condition theory, either way it doesnt have much to do with this.
as far as being naked in your house, its allowed, but since its a PUBLIC library, your not allowed, just like walking around naked in the streets. All in all, the police should have assed the situation as 1/10 dangerousness, they failed, they responded as if it were 5/10 dangerousness.




Yeah, I'm sure he was completely compliant, mature, and willing to comply when he entered the library without showing his ID. Hence he didn't comply with with their rules. On top of that, he didn't get shocked because he didn't show ID, he got shocked because he didn't want to be mature and comply with police orders, even if he didn't agree with them. His attitude towards authority was the sole reason this situation escalated to the point it did. I highly doubt he was the model citizen until the cops had him on the ground and tasered him.

As far as having a medical condition, you're right, we don't know. However, since from the video we heard he did not state that, we have to assume that he didn't have one or that he did not inform the police of it. If they are not aware of any medical conditions there are no way that the police can know, with the exception of having Miss Cleo on speed dial.

And I see you agree with me that there are difference between public property and property you own. Sopwith seemed to believe that if it was public property that everyone owns a piece of it. I was merely using the walking around naked example to show my point. Which I see you agree with.

In regards to the police overracting--you and I were not in their shoes so we cannot judge. Like I said, it can be seen clearly in the video that a small mob was forming. Last thing the police want to be is trying to control an riot. Perhaps they felt they responded properly.


Quote:

1, thats a load of bs. 2, there was no "equal" reaction. He did something wrong, no doubt, but the police used the "hit us and we will hit back 100000 times harder" strategy.




#1--please explain to me how this is bs?
#2--Your misinterrepting the whole theroum. It's not a simple as beginning and end. The whole situation was a chain of events. Here's now it should look:

Action: Enter the library without showing ID
Reaction: Police were called

Action: Student refused to leave
Reaction: Was placed on the ground (assuming handcuffs)

Action: Student refused to comply with police orders with warning he would be tased
Reaction: Student was tased

Action: Student refused to comply with police orders with warning he would be tased
Reaction: Student was tased

Action: Student refused to comply with police orders with warning he would be tased
Reaction: Student was tased

And so on. . .

At any point the student could have altered his action and received a different reaction, but he chose not to comply, but rather rebel. All he had to do was say, "Okay, I'm getting up now" and avoided getting tased. Even after the first taser shot, did he think the police were bluffing??


Quote:

Quote:

No, what this is about is people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions and trying to shift blame to the men and women of law enforcement. I honesty wonder what makes these hard working men and women go out each and every day and put their lives on the line for people who have absolutely no respect for the sacrifice and commitment they are taking to protect your life.



more bs.




Once again, please explain how my opinion is bs. You may not agree with it, but then again, it is my opinion.


Quote:

yeah thanks, how about the "nonletha;" catagory. Such as handcuffs? hmm?




I'm sure handcuffs were utilized and they probably didn't resolve the issue. What should they do if handcuffs don't work, break out the tickle feather?


Quote:

moooore bs, that still doesnt make it right. I cant just pop a cap in someones head if they walk into my house now can i?




Perhaps I was a bit over the line on that statement, but in the end it stands ground. Don't like the rules and government of this country, than do something about it.

And while I don't know the laws of Austrialia, in America you can shoot someone if they break into your house if you feel they present you with an immediate danger.

And before the leap is made, the kid was not shot, he was tased. Big difference. And inciting a riot can create an immediate danger.


Without trying to sound like a broken record--Bottom line, he was tased for not complying with police orders, and not because he entered without showing ID.

Try contacting your local police department and finding out what their policies are for people who refuse to comply with police orders, even after being handcuffed and placed on the ground.

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#302899 - 11/26/06 11:58 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: crablord]
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No, and what the hell does that have to do with anything? stupid comment.




Not stupid and it IS valid. If the guy is a serial criminal - which no one here knows - then his refusal to show ID highlights a pattern of contempt for the law. Maybe he wanted in to the libray for a Columbine style assualt?

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what a load of [censored]. If he told them to "get your hands off me" it probably indicated it scared him.




If it scared him so bad, why didn't he just produce the ID or leave before it got to that point? His choice, his consequences.

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If they REALLY had to remove him, they should have just grabbed his arms and pulled him out, or handcuffed him while he was on the floor.




He was thrashing around and making it difficult for the officers to grab him. They also warned him several times - why not just comply? Consequences, my young friend.

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Write a letter? ...no. As far as refusing to show i.d , we dont now what happened, they could have started being [censored] to him, he might have been a regular visitor who everyone knew etc. We didnt see that so we cant comment. we only saw him being tased, with a " apparently hes getting his ass zapped because he didnt show id" . So no more comments about that please.




Now THAT is a stupid comment, Crab.

So what if he is a regular? Rules are rules. Show ID or leave, or face the consequences. He got tased because he wouldn't comply with the officers, even after being warned. So don't give me the "tased for ID" crap.

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Wrong, it was a violent assault. and as i said before he might have been too scared to get up etc, there are many reasons. And a guy doesnt scream "LEAVE ME ALONE" at the top of his voice, without some sort of problem, the cops there should have thought of that.




Crab, are you paying attention or what? Defense is not assault. And people scream all kinds of things when they know they have been caught. Have you never seen "COPS"?

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His attitude was the way it was because he was anrgy that he got tazed, or maybe its just my medical condition theory, either way it doesnt have much to do with this.




Wrong. It has everything to do with it. He was disruptive before the police showed - remember that's why they were called. Quit trying to spin the story.

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as far as being naked in your house, its allowed, but since its a PUBLIC library, your not allowed, just like walking around naked in the streets. All in all, the police should have assed the situation as 1/10 dangerousness, they failed, they responded as if it were 5/10 dangerousness.




Were you there that you know for sure what level of dangerousness it was? No? Didn't think so.

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While you may feel this way I personally find it saddening to see the extent people will go to justify the actions of those "victims" while putting responsibility of the end result merely upon the police and other law enforcement officers. Furthermore, as stated above it was not a violent attack. A violent attack would be the police putting a bullet or two in his leg(s).

Remember that old physics theorum--"Each action has an equal and opposite reaction" Don't like the reaction from the police--don't cause the initial action. Problem solved.



1, thats a load of bs. 2, there was no "equal" reaction. He did something wrong, no doubt, but the police used the "hit us and we will hit back 100000 times harder" strategy.




Why is that BS? The guy broke the rules, and the cops made him comply, within the scope of their training and rules.

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yeah thanks, how about the "nonletha;" catagory. Such as handcuffs? hmm?




Yes, what about them? Were you there that you can say how you would have handled it? Have you ever been in charge of a large group of people? Have you ever done security?

If not, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

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moooore bs, that still doesnt make it right. I cant just pop a cap in someones head if they walk into my house now can i?




In the USA, if they are trespassing, you are allowed to use force to remove them in many jurisdictions. Crab, you are doing the same thing that Sopwith is - talking about something that you clearly have no knowledge of. You both need to do some research, and stop reacting emotionally.
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