FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 20 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SenseiGregT, sagat, JFawkes, pluckysaga39, sgtdemeo
22911 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
AndyLA 5
Dobbersky 5
Ed_Morris 4
ergees 3
futsaowingchun 3
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Recent Posts
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
Yesterday at 03:51 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
08/29/14 10:50 PM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/28/14 02:39 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
08/16/14 04:59 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Forum Stats
22911 Members
36 Forums
35573 Topics
432484 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 11 < 1 2 3 4 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#302880 - 11/24/06 09:38 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
This calls, dear friends, for a moo
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

Top
#302881 - 11/24/06 10:09 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: JoelM]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

This man was inciting a riot, breaking the rules, and failing to comply with orders given by police.



In other words, he didn't do anything to anyone.
Quote:

But he violated the property of the university.



That would be an excellent point if the university were privately owned. It is not. It was as much his land as it was anyone's.
Quote:

He was not innocent, see above.



He was innocent of harming the life or property of another. There is no moral justification for assaulting such a person.
Quote:

what were they suppose to do, tickle him?



They were supposed to protect the right of a peaceful person to do as they please on public land so long as they do not violate the life or property of another citizen. In that simple task they completely and utterly failed. And if police are not going to protect the liberty of peaceful people to live as they please, we would actually have greater freedom, peace and liberty without police departments.

Top
#302882 - 11/24/06 10:25 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Police have to follow their orders



No they don't.
Quote:

- to enforce orders on the public. So they are empowered to "originate" orders, as you put it.



Then they are not public servants. They are now our masters and citizens are their servants. Dictatorships throughout history have found that arrangement very convenient.
Quote:

Are you saying that enforcement of low-level rules should be flouted until major catastrophe occurs?



Are you saying that violently attacking one who has not harmed anyone is morally justifiable?
Quote:

Who's to say what that guy may have done since he was already violating the entrance rules to the library (police POV).



Anyone who dares refuse to produce their state papers in a library is clearly an ax-murderer waiting to happen.
Quote:

And violence IS morally justified in self defense. Defense of the library.



A) If the victim attacked the library, please explain who he attacked, who was killed or hospitalized and how many rooms he burned or destroyed so that I can change my position and agree with you entirely.

B) Self defense is SELF defense. If the victim attacked the library, the specific person at the library who was assaulted should have tasered the attacker.

C) The student did not taser the police; the police tasered the student. The student did not initiate violence; the police initiated violence. The student did not make threats or demands; the police made threats and demands. No amount of excuses will change that.
Quote:

They did protect the victim - the library was the victim.



Again, please explain to me who was attacked or injured as a result of the student's violence and I will change my position entirely. Until you produce a victim, stop attempting to claim victim status. There was only one human being who was violently assaulted in this incident, and it was not a librarian.
Quote:

Get off your ill-informed high horse.



I am not the topic. The topic is the topic. Stay on it.

Top
#302883 - 11/24/06 10:40 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Im finding myself leaning towards sopwith right now. He has a point
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

Top
#302884 - 11/25/06 03:28 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: globetrotter]
JAD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Michigan, USA
Our use of force continuim calls for compliance controls when the subject refused to comply with the directions of the officers. Compliance controls can be thought of as techniques that cause discomfort (not injury) to the subject until he/she complies. Tazer's and chemical agents are compliance controls, but some pressure point control techniques could have been a better choice in this instance.

Top
#302885 - 11/25/06 08:51 AM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

That would be an excellent point if the university were privately owned. It is not. It was as much his land as it was anyone's.




I am terribly sorry to inform you that public land DOES have rules.

Quote:

No they don't.




Look, I agree that tasering the student was a bit much. However, the police were within their rights to do so, in order to keep the peace and protect the public. Again, why didn't the guy just produce the ID or leave? HE created that situation, not the police.

Quote:

Then they are not public servants. They are now our masters and citizens are their servants. Dictatorships throughout history have found that arrangement very convenient.




So police = dictatorship? Get real. That point is so stupid, I will not even argue that.

Quote:

Are you saying that violently attacking one who has not harmed anyone is morally justifiable?




Notice how you avoid my question. I have already answered your question several times. Police are empowered to use force to make people comply with rules, period.

Quote:

Anyone who dares refuse to produce their state papers in a library is clearly an ax-murderer waiting to happen.




That was not my conclusion. But rules are rules. The guy could have simply produced the ID, or left. His choice and his resposibility to face the consequences of his actions.

Quote:

A) If the victim attacked the library, please explain who he attacked, who was killed or hospitalized and how many rooms he burned or destroyed so that I can change my position and agree with you entirely.




Rules are rules, no matter how insignificant they seem to you.

Quote:

B) Self defense is SELF defense. If the victim attacked the library, the specific person at the library who was assaulted should have tasered the attacker.




All the people inside were being threatened by someone attempting to improperly gain access. How do you know his intentions were peaceful? Please produce character references and polygraphs showing the truth of his intentions at that specific time. The police have a DUTY to protect the public.

Quote:

C) The student did not taser the police; the police tasered the student. The student did not initiate violence; the police initiated violence. The student did not make threats or demands; the police made threats and demands. No amount of excuses will change that.




The student apparently demanded or threatened to enter the library without ID. Then he demanded or threatened not to leave when asked. The police responded in a manner allowed by their rules.

Quote:

Again, please explain to me who was attacked or injured as a result of the student's violence and I will change my position entirely. Until you produce a victim, stop attempting to claim victim status. There was only one human being who was violently assaulted in this incident, and it was not a librarian.




Again, you are completely missing the point. He was assulting THE PUBLIC (police POV) by attempting to break the rules - no matter how small. Rules are rules.


Quote:

Quote:

Get off your ill-informed high horse.



I am not the topic. The topic is the topic. Stay on it.




_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#302886 - 11/25/06 12:26 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: JAD]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Compliance controls can be thought of as techniques that cause discomfort (not injury) to the subject until he/she complies.



Let's use simpler words...

"We will hurt you until you do as we say."

Top
#302887 - 11/25/06 12:46 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Look, I agree that tasering the student was a bit much.



Then stop defending people who violently assault an individual who has not harmed the life or property of another. Just stop. No excuses, no compromises... just stop.
Quote:

the police were within their rights to do so, in order to keep the peace and protect the public.



A) As government agents, police do not have rights. The Bill of Rights grants no rights whatsoever to government agents; quite the opposite in fact. It restricts them.
B) Even if someone did have some twisted legal "right" to physically attack another human being, I would expect them to have the moral courage not to act upon it.
C) The public was not under attack, therefore no "protection" was necessary.
Quote:

why didn't the guy just produce the ID or leave?



"They were holding onto him and they were on the ground, he was trying to just break free. He was saying, 'I'm leaving, I'm leaving.' It was so disturbing to watch that I cannot be concise on that. I can just say that he was willing to leave. He had his backpack on his shoulder and he was walking out when the cops approached him."

- student witness affidavit
Quote:

HE created that situation, not the police.



He did not approach the police, the police approached him. He did not attack the police, the police attacked him. He did not taser the police, the police tasered him. He did not demand state papers from the police, the police demanded state papers from him.

I think we both agree on that much.
Quote:

Police are empowered to use force to make people comply with rules, period.



Let's put that into plain English...

"We're going to hurt you until you do as we say."
Quote:

How do you know his intentions were peaceful? Please produce character references and polygraphs showing the truth of his intentions at that specific time.



A) Do you believe that all citizens should be forced by threat of violence to prove their intentions before taking any action?
B) For 800 years of English history we have been innocent until proven guilty. He had no obligation to "prove" anything to anyone.
Quote:

The student apparently demanded or threatened to enter the library without ID.



A free human being in a free country freely entering his own property.

Good heavens... this must be stopped!
Quote:

Then he demanded or threatened not to leave when asked.



I'm curious... how is "not leaving," i.e., the act of doing nothing, a "demand" or a "threat?"
Quote:

He was assulting THE PUBLIC



Then please give me the name of the victim.

Top
#302888 - 11/25/06 01:19 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Then stop defending people who violently assault an individual who has not harmed the life or property of another. Just stop. No excuses, no compromises... just stop.




I have already answered this, in the same quote that you cut short.

Quote:

A) As government agents, police do not have rights. The Bill of Rights grants no rights whatsoever to government agents; quite the opposite in fact. It restricts them.




Funny. I could have sworn that the police are people, too. Don't people have rights?

Quote:

B) Even if someone did have some twisted legal "right" to physically attack another human being, I would expect them to have the moral courage not to act upon it.




For the millionth time, the POLICE were defending the library. They have the right to use force in defense of themselves or others.

Quote:

C) The public was not under attack, therefore no "protection" was necessary.




Rules were broken and action was taken.

Quote:

"They were holding onto him and they were on the ground, he was trying to just break free. He was saying, 'I'm leaving, I'm leaving.' It was so disturbing to watch that I cannot be concise on that. I can just say that he was willing to leave. He had his backpack on his shoulder and he was walking out when the cops approached him."

- student witness affidavit




LMAO. So I can go into a bank and rob them or even threaten to rob them (ie; break the rules) and then cry "I'm leaving!" when the police try to stop me? A bit late for that, don't you think?

Quote:

He did not approach the police, the police approached him. He did not attack the police, the police attacked him. He did not taser the police, the police tasered him. He did not demand state papers from the police, the police demanded state papers from him.




AGAIN, all he had to do was produce ID or leave. He did neither, and suffered the consequences.

Quote:

A) Do you believe that all citizens should be forced by threat of violence to prove their intentions before taking any action?




Of course not. But it is not unreasonable for institutions to make demands for entrance into certain places. 'Please show your ID' is not unreasonable. Why can't you agree that the guy was being immature and disrespectful?

Quote:

B) For 800 years of English history we have been innocent until proven guilty. He had no obligation to "prove" anything to anyone.




Wrong. Very common to have to "prove" who you are or what your intentions are, all the time. At least here in the USA. Ever tried to buy a car, rent an apartment, get a job?

I'm guessing that you haven't.

Quote:

A free human being in a free country freely entering his own property.




LMAO. So he owned the university? I have an idea! Why don't you walk into the White House unannounced? It's PUBLIC, right? Go ahead, it should be no problem whatsoever.

Quote:

I'm curious... how is "not leaving," i.e., the act of doing nothing, a "demand" or a "threat?"




You apparently have never heard of 'trespassing'. You see, when you are on someone's property, and they don't want you there.......oh the hell with it. Look it up yourself.

Quote:

Quote:

He was assulting THE PUBLIC



Then please give me the name of the victim.




No problem.

T-H-E P-U-B-L-I-C.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#302889 - 11/25/06 02:00 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
My God, some guy gets tased and everyone gets all emotional.

As none of us were on the scene we cannot assume the intentions of the man who was tased. Heres what we do know. 1) he didnt have ID 2) he was asked to leave and refused 3) the cops were called.

Thats pretty much how it goes when you are considered trespassing. Had it been on my land it would have went a little differently. somewhere along the lines of " hey Leave" "No" *BANG* "yes police, I just shot this guy who wouldnt leave,...send the meat wagon."
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

Top
Page 2 of 11 < 1 2 3 4 ... 10 11 >


Moderator:  Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga