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#302960 - 11/30/06 12:12 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: JoelM]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Our right to be pain-free is given up when we begin resisting police officers.



"We're going to hurt you until you do as we say."

Let freedom ring.

BTW, do police officers give up their right to be pain-free when they resist a citizen?

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#302961 - 11/30/06 12:13 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by sopwith21 -

Quote:

Did the student tase the police, or did the police tase the student? Did the student demand state papers from the police, or did the police demand state papers from the student? Did the student initiate a confrontation with police, or did police approach the student?

I can't wait to hear the verbal gymnastics on this one.




The only verbal gymnastics here are yours. These points have been answered several times already. You just keep repeating them as if it will change the fact that the student violated the rules, initiating the entire series of events himself.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#302962 - 11/30/06 12:16 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

The officer is not breaking the law if he is in the middle of doing his duty, restraining a suspect.



So officers are not required to give produce their badge numbers upon demand? Yes or no? If they are, then yes. If they are not, then no. I don't understand what's so hard about this.

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#302963 - 11/30/06 12:19 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Answer my question first.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#302964 - 11/30/06 12:29 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

the student violated the rules, initiating the entire series of events himself.



But that's not what you asked. You asked... "Let me get this straight--the police initiated the violence?"

The answer is yes, the police initiated the violence. And yes, the police initiated the confrontation (they drove to the library... the student didn't drive to the police station).

The student had done nothing to harm anyone else in any way. His "crime" was an abstention from performing a certain function demanded by the state... had he performed this function the attack would have been withheld (until his next "crime"). IOW, he was assaulted for the act of doing nothing.

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#302965 - 11/30/06 12:30 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
sopwith21 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 49
Quote:

Answer my question first.



I'm tired of anwering it so this time I'll just cut and paste...

"If they are, then yes. If they are not, then no."

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#302966 - 11/30/06 12:35 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Nice try. But you can't even keep your facts straight here on the forum. The quote that you reference here:

Quote:

But that's not what you asked. You asked... "Let me get this straight--the police initiated the violence?"




Is not my quote at all. It was from bearich, not me.

And your logic is pathetic and pointless. For the millionth time, the student broke the rules, causing all the ensuing violence on himself.

Still waiting on my questions.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#302967 - 11/30/06 12:37 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Quote:

Answer my question first.



I'm tired of anwering it so this time I'll just cut and paste...

"If they are, then yes. If they are not, then no."




If yes what? This is not an answer. Answer my question.

In the middle of arresting someone resisting, the officer is supposed to stop, and give you his/her badge number?


Edited by MattJ (11/30/06 12:46 PM)
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#302968 - 11/30/06 01:01 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: sopwith21]
bearich Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Dayton, OH
Quote:

Do police us tasers against subjects armed with deadly weapons? Of course not. They use firearms in such encounters. Tasers are used primarily against unarmed people. And yes, I consider an attack against an unarmed person as an act of aggression. Were police not involved in our analogy, I bet you would, too.




Yes they do. They use it against people armed with knives, batons (which is considered a deadly weapon--just ask Snoop Dogg who was just arrested for possession of one), and so on.

And no I would not consider a taser a use of aggression by ordinary citizens. Can it be, sure? But it's not automatic. What about the women who carry them around for self-defense purposes? Because they defend themselves with tasers should they be arrested for causing aggression to their attacker?


Quote:

The Second Amendment prohibits outlawing weapons for private ownership. I am suggesting that they be banned from police use.




Really??? Then next time I go to sporting goods store I'll remember to ask them to order me a fully automatic M60, a shoulder mounted RPG, and a few claymore mines. Can't be too careful when it comes to home security.


Quote:

I'd prefer to substitute it with a less lethal action. Like leaving people alone unless they have harmed the life or property of another.




Okay, so next time you have a complete stranger just hanging out in your back yard refusing to leave are you are going to insist the police just let him be because he isn't being violent? After all, you can't do anything against him because it would be an act of aggression, which you have clearly stated you're opposed to. And before you bring up the point about it being your property, the library was the school's property--they were the ones who called the police.


Quote:

I consider shooting someone with a projectile that delivers 50,000 volts of electricity causing immense pain, disability, possible death and a disruption of the central nervous system to be a violent act. Call me crazy.

Have you ever been shot with one... or perhaps three? Could the experience have any effect on your re-definition of "violence?"




Have I been shot with a taser, no I've already stated that. However, when I was young, perhaps 9 or 10, I did touch an electrifed fence just to see what it was like. You know what, it did hurt, but I'm not dead and I've learned my lesson--I haven't touched an electrifed fence since.

Hopefully this student will learn not to disobey police orders.


Quote:

Did the student tase the police, or did the police tase the student? Did the student demand state papers from the police, or did the police demand state papers from the student? Did the student initiate a confrontation with police, or did police approach the student?




You missed one important question--Is the student an authority of the government?

And what would have happened had the student displayed his papers to the police or refused to resist arrest? Would he have followed police order--by golly he would have--thus negativing his tasing (even though he was warned about them prior--he had plenty of opportunity to comply). And the police approached the student because he broke the law--he was tresspassing.

Do you expect everyone who breaks the law to simply walk to the nearest police station and turn themselves in? I know I expect the police to actually come to my property should someone be tresspassing on it. Call me crazy.

Quote:

I can't wait to hear the verbal gymnastics on this one.




You can call it verbal gymnastics all you want, but the next time I want to argue the same point over and over, while presenting solid facts, documents, etc. again and again and get absolutely no where--I'll save myself the time of logging on and typing and just talk to the nearest wall next time.

I'll address your other "points" after I get back from my lunch meeting.

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#302969 - 11/30/06 01:27 PM Re: opinions on taser case [Re: MattJ]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Mat

Not only that, but what "rights" does a university, in a "free" country, have to refuse to allow its resoucres and bldg be co-opted by someone that could not prove they paid for them??

Going back and reading thu the thread (ouch ) and it seems to me that several false premises have been extended.

The student in question, by failing to provide proof that he was in fact a student there--was "stealing" resoures that OTHER people had paid for.

Its like a host of other things--decent hard-working people have to pay MORE for goods and services to make up for what theives, chislers, and cheats steal.

If the kid could not prove he was a student there--then he should have left and come back with his ID.
Not a big deal, you go home, get your wallet, have buddy bring it down etc.

2nd by causeing such chaos, he made people frightened---and when people get scared they sometime take direct action.

Scare people with tasers and they are apt to use them--duh.

Another factor to consider is that the campus cops/LEO are there to protect other people--such as the OTHER students.

You got a guy going wild over a simple matter of showing a student ID and you have to wonder what else he might be capable of.

The LEO's are in a seriously bad spot--if they do nothing and someone gets hurt, then or later--then they get sued for failing to stop a clearly unhinged person.

What if people had been hurt in the riot the kid was trying to cause?

Whom would we be blaming about THAT?

I have to say that I weep for the loss of personal responsibilty these days.

To me this a a clear-cut case of "stupid" aggravated by a case of "spoiled rotten" with a side of "petulent youngster with a bad attitude."

Rather than lionizing the kid for being being some sort of protester, he should be admonished for wasteing everyones time with a non-problem.

Oh, and someone needs to slowly and precisely explain to some folks that "passive resistance" does NOT involve "inciteing a riot."


Edited by cxt (11/30/06 01:40 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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