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#302265 - 11/18/06 03:58 AM "shotokan" makes me cry
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
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#302266 - 11/18/06 07:46 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
JasonSmith Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 43
Loc: York, PA
The first one made me sick, the second one made me go to sleep, the third one woke me up with the pathetic "Kiaa, Kiaa", and the fourth one made me want to go back to sleep..
As far as the last clip, though...
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#302267 - 11/18/06 09:00 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

It does...when it's like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrGO7RQBbRs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7UgWAbbv10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfFxA8d2374

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9bH00BfLNM

But then this made me smile, and evrything was ok again :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0




First one - Cant type while vomiting.

Second one - Pretty sure I saw the "sine wave" in there, LOL.

Third one - That has to be a joke. It better be a joke.

Fourth one - WTF? Xtreme Shotokan?

Last one - Kyokushotokan?
_________________________
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#302268 - 11/18/06 10:54 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: MattJ]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
i think even i could beat the third guys!!!
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#302269 - 11/18/06 10:54 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I think I seen the thrid clip in a Monty Python sketch
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#302270 - 11/18/06 11:41 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Prizewriter]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Truthfully,

The first wasn't anything related to Shotokan. Shotokan (as designed) doesn't do Nunchaku. Shotokan (as designed) can't do what that performer does, which is in the extreme martial arts category, a newer development on the martial arts scene. I'm far more tolerant to what people do, but dislike the mislabeling.

The 2nd video is someone practicing bassai-dai kata. A student is always a reflection of the instructors abilities as well as their own potentials. He's working on his form, for that we must congragulte him, but not knowing the individual or his path it's unfair to comment on what you see, unless this is the standard of their group.

It's fair to comment on the performance but kindly explain what you would do different, and understand anything may be reality. The person might have a great instructor and is working at their full potential. One video tells us little after all.

The 3rd video is not karate. I don't know what it is, but it is not karate. I'm grateful they didn't hurt themselves making the video, I hope. I would loose sleep if they hurt themselves doing that.

The 4th video is misnamed. Shotokan never kicks while drinking. I have that on good authority I think.

Finally Enoeda Sensei demonstrating one application. Fine for him, not one that does much for me. He's a senior instructor and is fair game to comment on. I would much rather see how he makes that work against someone really attacking. It may just be a basic trianing guide, but my vision of Shotokan is from an entirely different path of technique execution.

most pleasantly,
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#302271 - 11/18/06 12:04 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
shotokan, at least in todays world, has become synomnious with "krotty".

the videos that made you cry were froma host of different backgrounds.

the kid with the glow in the dark nunchku, thats what alot of people call martial arts now a days. there all happy, why bother them.

the second video. don't make me some to your house and call you down for every thing your not the best at. the guy is trying, and learning, lay the &*%^ off.

the third video. like i said the word shotokan is being thrown around alot,what they call them selves is up to them. im sorry it makes you cry, you want a hug? if your saying these guys don't make the shotokan "cut", go live in a cave and write the next five rings why don't ya.

fourth video. just some guy in his bastment with a video camera showing of his stuff, when did that ever hurt anyone??

and as for Enoeda, that made you smile? to each his own i guess, but if you get to post your personal preferences on here and mock people honestly trying then here i go. the deepest sign of disrespect psoible from a traditional martial artist, Enoeda is sport, his take down was for a sport situation. you can try it out in a self defence role, but i won't.
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#302272 - 11/18/06 03:20 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
Those are not what I would call Shotokan either. Well the second video wasn't too bad. It looked to me as though he is still learning Bassai Dai.

The last video was good. Although I would like to see that technique used on someone with there hands up. I don't know how other Shotokan school were trained but keeping guard your was the first thing we were taught.

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#302273 - 11/18/06 06:41 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: student_of_life]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Finally! some (almost) controversy! For so long it seemed that everyone was so caught up in the political correctness of everything they say that they worried about everyone's feelings getting hurt...to the point where no one ever got around to making the point.
Thank you, student of life.

Quote:

the second video. don't make me some to your house and call you down for every thing your not the best at. the guy is trying, and learning, lay the &*%^ off.
the third video. like i said the word shotokan is being thrown around alot,what they call them selves is up to them. im sorry it makes you cry, you want a hug? if your saying these guys don't make the shotokan "cut", go live in a cave and write the next five rings why don't ya.
fourth video. just some guy in his bastment with a video camera showing of his stuff, when did that ever hurt anyone??





None of this hurts anyone, of course. But geeze...you would think that before you publish your crappy stuff on the internet, you'd have some skill.
That Bassai Dai was atrocious....so let's put it on the web! I mean, would you post a vid on the net labelled "shotokan" where it would sit next to Enoeda and Kanazawa if your form was as bad as that guy's? I call it fair game if it's out there.

And you made exactly the point I was pushing with your first line:
Quote:

shotokan, at least in todays world, has become synomnious with "krotty".





That is what makes me cry...
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#302274 - 11/18/06 07:03 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Victor Smith]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Quote:

and as for Enoeda, that made you smile? to each his own i guess, but if you get to post your personal preferences on here and mock people honestly trying then here i go. the deepest sign of disrespect psoible from a traditional martial artist, Enoeda is sport, his take down was for a sport situation. you can try it out in a self defence role, but i won't.





Quote:

Finally Enoeda Sensei demonstrating one application. Fine for him, not one that does much for me. He's a senior instructor and is fair game to comment on. I would much rather see how he makes that work against someone really attacking. It may just be a basic trianing guide, but my vision of Shotokan is from an entirely different path of technique execution.






It wasn't Enoeda Sensei....it's a clip of Masao Kawasoe....
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#302275 - 11/18/06 07:07 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Aw poop. I posted the wrong clip......I just looked at my original post. Now I hafta locate the "good" clip of Kawasoe sensei.....

I can't really argue that Enoeda's not a sport type jiyu kumite man, especially with his Kumite book out with C.Mack. But at least that clip of Enoeda sensei didn't make me cry!
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#302276 - 11/18/06 07:53 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
regarding the guy preforming bassai dai, i have seen a bunch of his videos on google vid or youtube, preforming most of the heian kata as well. i have to admit his level of technique is not that great, actually judging from what i see in his videos, he would not have a brown belt in the style of karate i pratice.

i supose i got a little flamed cause every one just smashed him it seemed. i posted videos of myself on the internet as well, but not with the intent of impressing anyone. maybe the guy just wanted to show some family or friends how he's doing, if so im sure it put smiles on the faces of any relatives.

im very conerned that as martial artists we show respect for people on the same path, regardless of how good they are.

i stand by what i said befor, the people have a right to do what they want and even post what they want. i can't say any of the video's you posted enthrawled me.

i have to say as well, for the most part japanease karate does not interest me. that being said i pratice shotokan under a japanease man. but the 40's japanease legends like enode, kanazawa, egami and so on just seem to be going after a different kind of karate. the sweep you posted first looks good for a sparing situation, but i'm leaning towards the idea that sparing and self defence are 2 completly different animals. and in that light enode makes me cry.

you sound like you look up to enode, sorry if im wrong. but to me hs karate was far removed from funakoshi's. even if he was a direct student, in a way, to me they "ate of the forbidden tree", so to speak. they were all good fighters, im sure, but thats not what karate ka were ment to be. preservation was formost.

call me what you want, but i would rather train with the bassai dai guy then enode any day of the week. in my expirence, there would be a greater sense of accomplishment training with a fellow student, then training with a man who had to fight to gain respect.

i like to think every one has my respect, untill they throw it away.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#302277 - 11/18/06 08:27 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: student_of_life]
JasonSmith Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 43
Loc: York, PA
My thing with the fellow attempting Bassai is this:
To me it looked like he was wearing a black belt, although the color might be off on my monitor or in my head...
I have seen the black belts(hell, and some of the brown belts) do Bassai at the dojo, and this guy couldn't even hold the match to light the candle...
I'm the type of person to learn by example, and this is NOT the example I would want to see when I begin to learn Bassai...Boomer has led the class in Bassai once, so maybe I'm biased(alright, I am), but he's a good example to learn from
_________________________
To search for the old is to understand the new...The Way: Who will pass it on straight and well?

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#302278 - 11/18/06 08:48 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: JasonSmith]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
im sure boomer is a great instructor, hell victor even said he was, so now its law, lol.

i agree the guy's not at the level of instrction yet, he may never be. all im saying is give him i break, he never proclaimed to be an instructor, in fact the vid wasn't even labled by him.

like i said, give him a break, we were all at that level at some point in time, even boomer, me and you and even victor (waits to be struck by lightning).

i hope i never came accross as insultng boomer or anyone in my last post. i was just trying to put someone in the poor guys corner.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#302279 - 11/18/06 08:53 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: JasonSmith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jason,

I realize your new to your studies and fully undestand your passion, BUT just looking at a video tape never tells the entire story.

It is true there are many degraded martial training groups and I would not recommend them. Yet, any clip is just what it is. You can't look at the performance and judge where the person is in their training career, what their length of training is, what their potential is.

Life is rarely black and white.

If this clip focuses you to train harder, fine.

But in time you'll find that the martial arts world is much more complex than any simple judgement might be.

It is great to respect your instructors and their examples. But that person isn't an instructor and it is labeled as their practice session.

Accept it as what it is. Without further context, how their instructor teaches, what the rest of the group performs like, etc. nobody really has any context to know how to judge the person, except technically what they are doing. And what ablities a person should have at any rank is an issue with great lattitude in any art, because, rank doesn't really mean anything but a place holder in a group.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#302280 - 11/18/06 08:53 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: student_of_life]
JasonSmith Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 43
Loc: York, PA
Quote:

im sure boomer is a great instructor, hell victor even said he was, so now its law, lol.

i agree the guy's not at the level of instrction yet, he may never be. all im saying is give him i break, he never proclaimed to be an instructor, in fact the vid wasn't even labled by him.

like i said, give him a break, we were all at that level at some point in time, even boomer, me and you and even victor (waits to be struck by lightning).

i hope i never came accross as insultng boomer or anyone in my last post. i was just trying to put someone in the poor guys corner.

yours in life



Fair enough...
_________________________
To search for the old is to understand the new...The Way: Who will pass it on straight and well?

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#302281 - 11/18/06 08:56 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Victor Smith]
JasonSmith Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 43
Loc: York, PA
Quote:

Jason,

I realize your new to your studies and fully undestand your passion, BUT just looking at a video tape never tells the entire story.

It is true there are many degraded martial training groups and I would not recommend them. Yet, any clip is just what it is. You can't look at the performance and judge where the person is in their training career, what their length of training is, what their potential is.

Life is rarely black and white.

If this clip focuses you to train harder, fine.

But in time you'll find that the martial arts world is much more complex than any simple judgement might be.

It is great to respect your instructors and their examples. But that person isn't an instructor and it is labeled as their practice session.

Accept it as what it is. Without further context, how their instructor teaches, what the rest of the group performs like, etc. nobody really has any context to know how to judge the person, except technically what they are doing. And what ablities a person should have at any rank is an issue with great lattitude in any art, because, rank doesn't really mean anything but a place holder in a group.



Also, fair enough...
Oh, and Sensei says hello..
_________________________
To search for the old is to understand the new...The Way: Who will pass it on straight and well?

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#302282 - 11/18/06 09:01 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Student,

I don't think I ever said Boomer is a great instructor <GRIN> I knew him when he was a grasshopper. His father on the other hand.....

and Boomer, as an Okinawan stylist I rarely keep track of Japanese stylists <bigger Grin>, except for one exceptional indonesian Shotokan instructor I know.

But here's a real challenge. Find me a clip of a truly great performance of a 'traditional' karate art.

Off hand I can only think of a few. Most performances are really holding back (assuming that is the purpose), as it is a very old tradition not to really show your stuff.

All performance has meaning, but find one that knocks your socks off. I'm interested in seeing what that would be and how they rank against my private videos.....

Also in fairness, this is what I consider a reasonable sho-dan standard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BzGK-wRtr8


Edited by Victor Smith (11/18/06 09:05 PM)
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#302283 - 11/18/06 09:29 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you posted that video befor victor, and it's still fun to watch. he's one of your students isn't he? i have to say that i am impressed by his snapy kicks, and the kata on the whole. it is a solid preformance to say the least.

too be truthfll, the one that knocks my socks off as you put it would have to be most of the one's by sensei nishiyama hidetaka. he is the man i look up to in terms of technique.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7422324546190991236&q=shotokan

thats a clip promoing the latest dvd series the itkf put out, my instructor appears along with a few more that have hosted seminars. its a good control to contrast what i'm involved with as compared to what else is going on in the martial arts world.

seeing as how you brought it up mr. smith, i would verry much like to get my greasy little hands on some of your private video's of there up on open source somewhere...the collection im talking about here now involves guys in gi, nothing to "private" is ya get my verry subtle drift.....

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#302284 - 11/19/06 04:51 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: student_of_life]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Student,

Yes Mr. Lee is one of my students. I only offer it as a visual way to try and show what I'm looking for in technique execution. That clip, while good in it's day is far from his best performance, but he wasn't holding anything back then either.

Nor is tournament style exection my focus, but it does show what movement potential someone possesse that could be utilized in their technique execution.

Thank you for sharing your instructor, I hadn't seen that.

My private video's remain private. Most of them are videos of my instructors teaching my students in their arts. They were private sharings and are not open for others. They permitted me to film them with the hope it would help bind those sessions into my students efforts.

The other portion of my private video records are ones that various individuals have shared privately with me. Each of them was shared with the request I do not pass them along, and I will respect that forever.

A ton of stuff is out there right now. Most of it only is a shadow of those arts.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#302285 - 11/25/06 10:19 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Victor Smith]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
The whole reason I began this post was because I'm disappointed with people's perception of shotokan, what it really is, and what it should be.

Student of Life...first, let me say that I didn't consider anything you said to be "flaming". I enjoy lively debate and discussion... and I constantly stir the pot just to get a reaction. I think you made valid points.

I did not post those vids to rag on anyone. I thought the bassai dai was atrocious, and was not endearing of shotokan. Not only was the technique average at best, there was no kind of "crispness" to it. Funakoshi said that your enemy must be ever present in your mind... and that is how kata should be performed, especially at shodan level.

I tend to think of karate in a "jutsu" manner...and not so much in the way of "karate do". I don't like the association shotokan has with "kroddy"...it seems like we are quickly moving towards a sport.

If only I could convince my dad to call his style "shotokan karate jutsu"....but as Victor said, my dad's a great teacher...and all great teachers are quite stubborn. Me....I'm to greedy to learn and train myself to be a "great" teacher. I'll settle for being a decent one that b!tches about the way things should be.
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#302286 - 11/26/06 11:57 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you said you prefer the term jutsu over do, can i ask why?

the answer i come up with is that many of the hard core guys feel that when they hear some one say i pratice a "do" it,in a way gives them a reason to slack off in the intensity of their training. and the jutsu guys see this as a weekend warior kind of karate-ka.

i could be wrong, i usualy am, let me know why tho bud.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#302287 - 11/26/06 12:53 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Boomer,

I don't think we've talked about this but I choose to name my program Bushi No Te Isshinryu because over 30 years ago I saw a lot of the ways the term 'karate' was being used and choose to replace it with Funakoshi's term for the original Okinawan Arts 'Bushi No Te'.

This was before I met Mr. Sutrisno and his Bushi No Te organization (a different use of the term).

If I was doing it today (having learnt more about what was happening and older terms) I'd probably not use any older terms at all.

I understand your desire to change from Do to Jutsu, and I really think you can make a case for it, I know you.

But names and traditions (the one's we've experienced) die hard, and even I use the term karate, just with much more awareness of how many layers of meaning that name has come to represent.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#302288 - 11/28/06 05:09 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: student_of_life]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Quote:

you said you prefer the term jutsu over do, can i ask why?
the answer i come up with is that many of the hard core guys feel that when they hear some one say i pratice a "do" it,in a way gives them a reason to slack off in the intensity of their training. and the jutsu guys see this as a weekend warior kind of karate-ka.





I don't know if it makes me "hard core".....but that's more or less the gist of it. Many of the "do" people who I know and even train with have a type of mentality like that... and I admit that I have a lot of contempt for those who still wear a black belt, but do not train like one. Either they "already know everything", or they just want to bask in their own ego juice, barking orders at mudansha.

I don't mean that if you're injured, ill, or elderly, you should 'hang it up' because you cannot train the way you did in your prime. That's different. But even my dad at age 67 still puts in work, learns new things...and sweats.

I do understand the ideal Funakoshi was going after by calling it "karate do". We should live as karate ka, not just go to the dojo 3 nights a week. As my dad says (since we keep bringing him up ),"There's a big difference between 'going to church' and 'attending mass'".
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#302289 - 11/29/06 08:47 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Explicitly practicing a "-do" form seems to fulfil a spiritual need for some martial artists, who seem to revel in pretending they are Japanese, modern samurai (bizarrely for karate people) or quasi-holy warriors of some kind. People who would laugh at the moral constaints of Christianity (for example) get all moist about the precise details and implications of Funakoshi's dojo code, as if it was a serious guide to life, as opposed to a self-evident list of approriate behaviour more suitable for children. Personally, as a Westerner, I do not find that I can easily adopt the precepts of Zen Buddhism (I also doubt most karate practicioners really understand what the do/tao is that they sometimes claim to follow) and certainly not Shintoism but this hardly detracts from the practical aspects of karate training. Rob Redmond at 24 Fighting Chickens has much more sensible stuff to say about this, whcih I find I largely agree with.

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#302290 - 11/29/06 04:34 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Barad]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
there are lots of reasons for people to loose interest in their training over the years, and as for the spirituality stuff, thats different for ever one. personally, i get enough satisfaction with putting on a good sweat. and as as zen goes, i've read my share, and from what i've read i like it and think it goes hand in hand with most religons.

Boomer: nice answer, i don't really agree, but nice answer.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#302291 - 11/29/06 04:48 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
olga Offline
TKOlga
TKOlga

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 174
Loc: northern virginia
Third one is hilarious. I'm sure it's not real. I bet for their next fight they dressed up as Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul and duked it out with light sabers!

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