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#302285 - 11/25/06 10:19 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Victor Smith]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
The whole reason I began this post was because I'm disappointed with people's perception of shotokan, what it really is, and what it should be.

Student of Life...first, let me say that I didn't consider anything you said to be "flaming". I enjoy lively debate and discussion... and I constantly stir the pot just to get a reaction. I think you made valid points.

I did not post those vids to rag on anyone. I thought the bassai dai was atrocious, and was not endearing of shotokan. Not only was the technique average at best, there was no kind of "crispness" to it. Funakoshi said that your enemy must be ever present in your mind... and that is how kata should be performed, especially at shodan level.

I tend to think of karate in a "jutsu" manner...and not so much in the way of "karate do". I don't like the association shotokan has with "kroddy"...it seems like we are quickly moving towards a sport.

If only I could convince my dad to call his style "shotokan karate jutsu"....but as Victor said, my dad's a great teacher...and all great teachers are quite stubborn. Me....I'm to greedy to learn and train myself to be a "great" teacher. I'll settle for being a decent one that b!tches about the way things should be.
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#302286 - 11/26/06 11:57 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you said you prefer the term jutsu over do, can i ask why?

the answer i come up with is that many of the hard core guys feel that when they hear some one say i pratice a "do" it,in a way gives them a reason to slack off in the intensity of their training. and the jutsu guys see this as a weekend warior kind of karate-ka.

i could be wrong, i usualy am, let me know why tho bud.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#302287 - 11/26/06 12:53 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Boomer,

I don't think we've talked about this but I choose to name my program Bushi No Te Isshinryu because over 30 years ago I saw a lot of the ways the term 'karate' was being used and choose to replace it with Funakoshi's term for the original Okinawan Arts 'Bushi No Te'.

This was before I met Mr. Sutrisno and his Bushi No Te organization (a different use of the term).

If I was doing it today (having learnt more about what was happening and older terms) I'd probably not use any older terms at all.

I understand your desire to change from Do to Jutsu, and I really think you can make a case for it, I know you.

But names and traditions (the one's we've experienced) die hard, and even I use the term karate, just with much more awareness of how many layers of meaning that name has come to represent.
_________________________
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#302288 - 11/28/06 05:09 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: student_of_life]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Quote:

you said you prefer the term jutsu over do, can i ask why?
the answer i come up with is that many of the hard core guys feel that when they hear some one say i pratice a "do" it,in a way gives them a reason to slack off in the intensity of their training. and the jutsu guys see this as a weekend warior kind of karate-ka.





I don't know if it makes me "hard core".....but that's more or less the gist of it. Many of the "do" people who I know and even train with have a type of mentality like that... and I admit that I have a lot of contempt for those who still wear a black belt, but do not train like one. Either they "already know everything", or they just want to bask in their own ego juice, barking orders at mudansha.

I don't mean that if you're injured, ill, or elderly, you should 'hang it up' because you cannot train the way you did in your prime. That's different. But even my dad at age 67 still puts in work, learns new things...and sweats.

I do understand the ideal Funakoshi was going after by calling it "karate do". We should live as karate ka, not just go to the dojo 3 nights a week. As my dad says (since we keep bringing him up ),"There's a big difference between 'going to church' and 'attending mass'".
_________________________
Calling yourself "Master" implies that you have slaves.

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#302289 - 11/29/06 08:47 AM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Explicitly practicing a "-do" form seems to fulfil a spiritual need for some martial artists, who seem to revel in pretending they are Japanese, modern samurai (bizarrely for karate people) or quasi-holy warriors of some kind. People who would laugh at the moral constaints of Christianity (for example) get all moist about the precise details and implications of Funakoshi's dojo code, as if it was a serious guide to life, as opposed to a self-evident list of approriate behaviour more suitable for children. Personally, as a Westerner, I do not find that I can easily adopt the precepts of Zen Buddhism (I also doubt most karate practicioners really understand what the do/tao is that they sometimes claim to follow) and certainly not Shintoism but this hardly detracts from the practical aspects of karate training. Rob Redmond at 24 Fighting Chickens has much more sensible stuff to say about this, whcih I find I largely agree with.

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#302290 - 11/29/06 04:34 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Barad]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
there are lots of reasons for people to loose interest in their training over the years, and as for the spirituality stuff, thats different for ever one. personally, i get enough satisfaction with putting on a good sweat. and as as zen goes, i've read my share, and from what i've read i like it and think it goes hand in hand with most religons.

Boomer: nice answer, i don't really agree, but nice answer.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#302291 - 11/29/06 04:48 PM Re: "shotokan" makes me cry [Re: Boomer]
olga Offline
TKOlga
TKOlga

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 174
Loc: northern virginia
Third one is hilarious. I'm sure it's not real. I bet for their next fight they dressed up as Obi Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul and duked it out with light sabers!

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