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#301600 - 11/14/06 10:02 PM Street effective BJJ.
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
When it comes to fighting Im a striker first. Ive always grappled but never with formal training other than H.S. Greco Roman. Ive been working on BJJ lately and i wondered what the more experienced grapplers thought were the most effective techniques. I know the clinch works well, Im looking more along the lines of specific submissions. Thanks for the insight.
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#301601 - 11/14/06 10:14 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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"Knee-ride", while not a submission per se, is a very painful position for the person on the bottom, and can often make them submit anyway. It is a good position to control the opponent, and leaves you free to stand up quickly in the event of multiple opponents.
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#301602 - 11/14/06 10:58 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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This is just stream of consciousness, so bear that in mind.

Although I work a lot of boxing and clinch, I consider myself a jiu-jitsu fighter first and foremost.

For self-defense and street fighting, it's always run first. That's the one thing that everyone always agrees with, yet hates to hear at the same time because that isn't "sexy enough".

However if I am involved in a fight, I am always doing several things if I cannot run.

1. Clinching up. I train getting into the clinch religiously against partners who are working to strike and keep me out of the clinch.

In a fight, the first thing that I want to do if I can't escape, is clinch so that I'm not knocked the hell out. Within that clinch is the fight for dominant position. Out of that position and the reaction from your opponent to what you're doing are the take-downs. I look to drop or throw my opponent immediately. After the throw or drop, perhaps then I can escape.

If not you go to part 2.

2. Control position. First and foremost. I want to stay out of the guard and take a knee ride or mount position. Knee ride is a little better because of mobility. It's a little less stable but you're usually "floating" when playing knee ride in side control, so that isn't a factor anyway.

Most of the time with knee ride on someone who doesn't have a ground game, you bait them to roll belly down, exposing their backs. You take the RNC from there.

Two things can happen from the knee ride; 1) they can roll away from you exposing their backs and 2) they can roll toward you exposing their far arm for either the Kimura or spinning arm lock.

If it's a street fight, I'm usually looking to strike to create a reaction. Even then it's with an open hand slap. I'm just trying to get my opponent to turn and expose something one way or the other - I'm not looking to knock him out in "most" cases. That option is there, particularly from the mount with liberal doses of elbows.

The GUARD position is used in the case that I am on the bottom for whatever reason. It's not something that I would seek for as in a take-down. It's a defensive position from which you can defend against strikes, sweep, disengage to your feet or hit a submission that is presented.

My preference would be the top game, but it isn't ground and pound so much as it is based upon classical BJJ. I would NOT be looking to punch repeatedly as it really isn't necessary for a jiu-jitsu attack. Again, slapping works rather well and still creates certain reactions that the jiu-jitsu fighter is looking for.

One reason I'm not punching in a street fight is because of the cutting and bleeding. I don't want to get a lot of someone's blood on me, or into any cuts and scrapes that I may have, to the least extent possible.

Chokes are the first thing that I would look for. Next would be shoulder locks followed by arm-bars.

Chokes put people out. Shoulder locks tend to separate / dislocate shoulders and make it very difficult to fight. Arm-bars can do the same thing but a shoulder affects an entire side of the body whereas the arm-bar affects just the arm usually. Its my opinion that the shoulder lock may produce a more thorough effect in terms of structural damage caused. Each circumstance will be unique so you can't assume anything.

Leg locks I tend to forget about unless I'm already with my back against the ground in a bad position. I wouldn't sacrifice top for anything like that. Considering that jiu-jitsu is about positional control first, submission second, I want to control the positions at all times, taking a submission only when I'm absolutely CERTAIN that I will have it. Think like a sniper; one shot, one kill.


More later. Questions? I'll do my best to answer.


Good training!



-John

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#301603 - 11/14/06 11:47 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
What about leg or ankle locks while knee riding? Is that not much of a concern? With the balance being loose it would seem that it would be a viable reaction if they could sweep one way or the other.

From the top, what chokes are you looking for? Also, when in the clinch do you always seek the takedown or do you go for the choke there? Say Mata Leo for example. How much emphasis do you put on standup submission?

Also, can you not get the same reactions from a punch as a slap? It would seem to me that the opponent is going to block his face, still giving you the arm or back if he turns too much.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
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#301604 - 11/15/06 12:49 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
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Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Effective techniques vary. You'll find some are more effective for you than others, and it will also depend on who you're up against. I have a very good triangle choke but there's some people I can't get with it, so I sometimes have to do some non-standard submissions. You'll want to cover everything. They won't necessarily be your go to moves, but you need the back up plans. You'll also find that you'll have an easier time getting submissions when you know the transitions from them. If you just practice the straight armbar, kimura, paintbrush, RNC and guillotine, even though they are high percentage moves, you won't get them as often as people who have a larger variety. Once you've done more techniques you have a better understanding of grappling overall, and also have a better "toolbox" to work with to make up necessary finishes on the spot for a situation you haven't been in before. In a street situation really the most effective submission is the one you can pull off right in the position you are in at that moment. It's good to have the standard high percentage ones, but more submissions from unusual positions is better.

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#301605 - 11/15/06 10:43 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
At the risk of embarassing myself (I've only completed 2 BJJ classes) isn't there a range of SD techniques that the Gracie's taught as part of BJJ?

My instructor alluded to this fact last week but didn't go into specifics. I did see a program though were Rickson Gracie performed Harai Goshi (not sure if they call it that in BJJ), which can be a very effective throw for SD.

I know this is a little off topic though, apologies.
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#301606 - 11/15/06 10:55 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
Glockmeister Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Since you asked for specific submissions, I prefer chokes, I like the guilliotine, the rear naked choke and the arm triangle in particular they can all be done from either standing or on the ground and are very effective.

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#301607 - 11/15/06 10:58 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

What about leg or ankle locks while knee riding? Is that not much of a concern? With the balance being loose it would seem that it would be a viable reaction if they could sweep one way or the other.




With a proper knee-ride, leg or ankle locks are less of a concern than you might think. The support leg should be far away enough that the opponent cannot grab it easily, and all your weight is bearing down on their midsection. This makes moving that leg difficult for the opponent, and makes setting up armbars pretty easy.

And like JKogas said, if they roll, they either

* set up the armbar

* set up the RNC

Bad position for the person on the bottom.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#301608 - 11/15/06 02:17 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I find these strategies enlightening and different, becuase my approach is not like that. I perfer to stay at striking range unclinched. I feel comfortabel at this range and escape is always an option. But if I can't escape I'm always looking for an mistake or an opening were I can injuried my assailant with strikes.

If we clinch, I'm looking to knee, head butt and elbow, sweep or throw stay standing or kneeling if I can and continue to strike vitals now that he stunned by the contact of the ground. If he pulls me down on him, If he pulls me into a guard goes straight in for body control to avoid strikes, I know he has ground skills. And I'll pinch and bite and head butt, try to rise and throw elbows.

If (god forbid) I have to pull bottom, I continue to strike with palm/claws and use my thumbs, pull him close but release push him away and pull him close again (I don't want him bitting Me). I'm also trying to judge his reaction to determine how skilled he is, hopefully I can pull guard and I can keep him close and bite a hole in his neck or face anywhere to get a reaction, or get a choke or armlock from him pulling away from the missed neck bite.
I don't mind blood as long as its not mines (though I understand the bios of why you don't want bad blood on ya, but 1st thing 1st)
My goal is to retain my footage and regroup if he not severly damaged, continue the mayhem if he still want to fight. If he tries to escape I won't stop him I may even push him away from me. I may run and call Amcare from a public phone booth.

Ground fighting if it has to be done is (or to me is dangerous stuff).

Interesting approach to fighting feeling safe in a Clinch, Gulliotine chokes and leg locks whoa!!! You miss the GC or Leg lock and you r on bottom (most time) hoping for the Guard!!~ We fight as we Train. I'm all ears, wanting more and different approach to solve these problems.


Edited by Neko456 (11/15/06 02:27 PM)
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#301609 - 11/15/06 07:41 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Chen Zen wrote:
Quote:

What about leg or ankle locks while knee riding? Is that not much of a concern? With the balance being loose it would seem that it would be a viable reaction if they could sweep one way or the other.





Not from knee ride. With a proper knee ride, your opponent’s arms won’t be in a position to easily attack your legs (without exposing himself to an attack anyway). His back will be on the ground, carrying your weight. Don’t forget that your increased mobility in this position will allow you to quickly take advantage of your opponent when and if he moves out of good posture (such as to attack a leg, etc).

Balance isn’t an issue either but bear in mind that a knee ride takes practice. You have to devote a lot of time to a good top game, which knee-ride is a part of. It doesn’t happen overnight but with training, a good floating top game (including the knee ride) is a serious bitch to deal with. One of my veteran guys is 30 pounds lighter than I am. His knee-ride and side control game is a pain to deal with. There are just not a lot of things you can do from the bottom that doesn’t expose you in some way to an attack. Anyone with decent timing can capitalize on a person’s movements on the bottom. It’s the hardest position for me to escape from.

Once Matt Thornton was using a rolling pin knee-ride variation on me. I didn’t tap from it, but he might STILL be there to this day if he hadn’t tired of holding me there (so he switched off and arm-barred me from the mount)!


Quote:


From the top, what chokes are you looking for?





From the top, I’m looking to either get an arm triangle or preferably, roll him onto his stomach and get the RNC. If he’s wearing a loose collar, some of the lapel chokes could become available. Generally it’s the RNC in my neck of the woods.


Quote:


Also, when in the clinch do you always seek the takedown or do you go for the choke there? Say Mata Leo for example. How much emphasis do you put on standup submission?





Mata Leo (RNC) is something I personally don’t like doing from standing. If I had a person’s back to hit that, I’d probably use a harness and hip bump (is that what you guys call “shaking the blanket” Fletch?) to drop him to his butt. From there you can easily sink the choke while behind him.

I don’t really like a lot of standing submissions because you simply leave too much to chance. That’s especially true regarding the arms. The neck is another story, and there are some figure four chokes and cranks that can be effective from there. There is a “head chancery” that can seriously torque the neck and is dangerous to practice hastily.

Perhaps the best attacks outside of takedowns are the knee strikes. Elbows are good as well. The longer you leave your opponent standing though, the more time you give him to fight back. Most clinch positions will break down eventually as your opponent is still somewhat mobile (as opposed to being on the ground on his back carrying your weight).

I prefer breaking my opponents posture down and working a front headlock. MANY people are very susceptible to that I have found. It’s a great position from which to throw knees or simply drag a person to the ground with. You can also work some decent chokes from there (brabo/ anaconda, etc).


Quote:


Also, can you not get the same reactions from a punch as a slap? It would seem to me that the opponent is going to block his face, still giving you the arm or back if he turns too much.





A slap works pretty well but you always have the option to punch/elbow. I am just thinking about jiu-jitsu as the gentle art and only using the force needed. Again, you can always up the level of force as required as you are (hopefully) in a dominant position. In terms of a public safety, security guard, or bouncer situation, you may not wish to punch if you have other options available. Sometimes its not a bad thing to try those options first and see where they get you, remembering that it’s easy to switch to something with a little more “juice” on it.


Prizewriter wrote:
Quote:

At the risk of embarrassing myself (I've only completed 2 BJJ classes) isn't there a range of SD techniques that the Gracie's taught as part of BJJ?





Yes there is, but I don’t really care for the material too much. It’s too akin to these static, “textbook” moves reminiscent of more traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu.


Quote:


My instructor alluded to this fact last week but didn't go into specifics. I did see a program though were Rickson Gracie performed Harai Goshi (not sure if they call it that in BJJ), which can be a very effective throw for SD.





I love judo throws. They can work very well from the clinch. I get harai goshi all the time from a Kimura grip on one arm. Works well.



-John

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#301610 - 11/15/06 10:43 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The Mata leo was the first real choking move that was taught to me, and it was from a boxer. He taught me how to slip the punch and take the outside angle to get it on. From there he would do one of two things, either he would lift you off your feet or he would walk backwards, sink the knee into the back and then press all of hi weight forward. This often would leave you with little more option than trying to pry his arms off of you. I was rarely successful in that. He was a big guy with way more strength than me. This technique has seemed to do well for me.

It seems i definately need to work on knee ride. i also need advice on an affective side mount. I feel way to exposed to be comfortable there long or to mount a good offensive. when i am there i seem more focused on regaining the mount position than anything else. Or maybe a kimura.

As for the clinch position, I tend to do alot of what you were saying as far as the striking aspect of it. I work the front or side headlock alot. Usually if its the side, I drop down and go for the choke.

Slapping. The Gentle art, I should have known. Im just not gentle and that may be why my groundgame isnt going as well as i feel it should. I often find myself tiring out from trying to FORCE my opponent rather than letting himself present himself to me like I would if we were striking.

Also could you touch on the Anaconda? Thanks for the help John. Your going to be a great help to me for my match. wish you were there to be in my corner.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#301611 - 11/16/06 07:16 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Chen Zen wrote:
Quote:

I was rarely successful in that. He was a big guy with way more strength than me.






A lot of “big guys” do big-guy moves. Correct application of jiu-jitsu enables the smaller guy to apply moves against the big guys. IMO, that’s what martial arts are supposed to be about – not something requiring brute force and power. Big guys who always fight guys smaller/weaker than they are don’t need martial arts to do so. Get them against someone of their own size and poor technique will quickly be shown for what it is.


Quote:


It seems i definitely need to work on knee ride. i also need advice on an affective side mount. I feel way to exposed to be comfortable there long or to mount a good offensive. when i am there i seem more focused on regaining the mount position than anything else. Or maybe a kimura.





I would make the point that you need a good grappling coach. At least someone to shore up some of your weaker points. There is an art to training aside from mere “techniques”. Its learning how to TRAIN those side control skills aside from just “what to do” when in side control.

It isn’t all that surprising that you feel exposed in side control if you’ve not spent a lot of time there. I would argue that you probably need to work more on your escapes from the bottom/getting back up to your feet again as opposed to working a ground-fighting top game. Play to your strengths. I don’t know how much time you have to train, but whatever you have should be designed around your core strengths.

If you do end up on the ground, the mount is where you want to be as a knee-ride and side control game will probably be too loose for you at this point in your game. Of course, that depends on whom you’ll be fighting. Perhaps he won’t have as much of a ground game.

The Kimura from side control is a great attack. But any submission attack for you at the moment may not be the wisest strategy, particularly if you’re wearing gloves. Again, all of this will greatly depend on whom you’re fighting.


Quote:


As for the clinch position, I tend to do alot of what you were saying as far as the striking aspect of it. I work the front or side headlock alot. Usually if its the side, I drop down and go for the choke.





Gotta watch those side headlocks are they can leave you in extremely vulnerable positions. Once on the ground, the arm around the head is vulnerable to attack.


Quote:


Slapping. The Gentle art, I should have known. Im just not gentle and that may be why my groundgame isnt going as well as i feel it should. I often find myself tiring out from trying to FORCE my opponent rather than letting himself present himself to me like I would if we were striking.





The gentle art is that way for a reason, and the term “gentle” here in this case doesn’t always mean that you’re gentle on your opponent.

The gentle art is about flow and not force, brute strength and especially, tension. I see many people new to grappling who keep their whole body rigid. Their muscles are CONSTANTLY tense and they use every ounce of strength to force situations. Needless to say that isn’t refined technique by any stretch of the imagination. That sort of stuff only works if your opponent is smaller and weaker than you are. Fighting that way is like driving a high performance car with the parking brake on.

This art takes some time to learn, like anything. Stay true to your core strength.


Quote:


Also could you touch on the Anaconda? Thanks for the help John. Your going to be a great help to me for my match. wish you were there to be in my corner.




Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwf9x_20DJA

This move is done from a front headlock on the ground. He started with it from standing and just hop-stepped backwards to drag his opponent to his knees. The finish is the anaconda.


Enjoy!



-John

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#301612 - 11/16/06 06:13 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I appreciate the help John. I have until January. Before now I relied on striking on the ground to loosen my opponent then work to my feet. My upcoming competition doesnt allow ground striking. I guess what I need most is good strategy to facilitate that. I can do the "techniques" but I dont have much training as far as the transitional phases from technique to technique or from one position to another. Im doing what i can, but the guy i work with isnt a BJJ grappler. He wrestles well, but not like the BJJ guys in the competition.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#301613 - 11/16/06 10:16 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Yep, develop a good game plan and you’ll be fine. Do you know who your opponent will be? If not, generalize and work to your strengths. If so, find out as much about him as you can and game plan the guy.

I wish I could be of more help. It would a lot of fun training you if I were closer, and I’d for sure love to corner you. I’ll help though any way I can.

What are you going to wear or, what is allowed to be worn?



-John

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#301614 - 11/17/06 01:04 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The matches are drawn up at the event. The night signed up, I wanted to watch before I got myself into something I wouldnt enjoy. Every match went to the ground except for one between a guy 350 pounds and his 300 pound opponent, but the match was still won with a grappling move, the guillitine. All that is worn is your basic MMA type shorts and MMA gloves. The even is January 27 at the New Daisy Theatre in memphis. Im going to fight somewhere around 190 to 200. Heres the rules. The usuall no eyegouging or groin hitting. No small joint manipulation. No knees or elbows to the face. No kicking or striking a down opponent and no striking on the ground. Three rounds three minutes per. Since the rounds are short, the refs are good about standing you up if there isnt much going on on the ground. I believe I stand a good chance of winning on my feet. If it goes to the ground, I have to be sure i dont expose myself if Im going for the sub or trying to gain position. Ideally, Id like to be able to hold the guy in one spot, get stood up, and go for the KO.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#301615 - 11/17/06 07:07 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Loc: North Carolina
Sounds like it's going to be fun! This is a great opportunity. I'm assuming your opponent will be around your weight and that there are divisions, correct?

You've still got a little time bro. Get yourself some training for positional escapes and you'll be good to go.


-John

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#301616 - 11/17/06 09:50 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Yes there are weight divisions. People are coming from all around. At the last one, a guy who had ben training for about six months went up against a BJJ instructor of 16 years!. Thats what Im worried about. I have about the opposite amount of training as the instructor in striking. About sixteen years of standup. Ive only been grappling a short time. Hopefully, I can prepare a little. Im pretty good about not getting takendown but if thats all a guy is after, eventually he will get it.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#301617 - 11/20/06 01:04 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: MattJ]
dre9292 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 41
Quote:

"Knee-ride", while not a submission per se, is a very painful position for the person on the bottom, and can often make them submit anyway. It is a good position to control the opponent, and leaves you free to stand up quickly in the event of multiple opponents.




I don't think the knee ride is a very good position, it's easy to get out of especiall without a gi to hold on to. Without a doubt once you hit the floor the best way to go is the mount from there you can punch as much as you want and eventually go for the armbar or a mata leao.

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#301618 - 11/20/06 05:14 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: dre9292]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Loc: North Carolina
Whether or not the knee-ride is "good" depends on the person using it.

The mount isn't a bad position but can further commit you to your opponent, is all anyone is saying here. That may or may not be a good thing when you're involved in a street fight.

An armbar or RNC may not be what I'm looking for if I need to get up and away quickly. That isn't to say that those aren't effective tactics. It's just saying that circumstances should dictate the strategy and tactics you use. Falling back for an armbar may not always be the wisest move.

-John

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#301619 - 11/21/06 01:17 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
dre9292 Offline
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Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 41
If you need to go away and quickly you shouldn't really try to stabilize a positon at all because any position will leave you vulnerable to attack from another person.

If your talking about confronting more than a opponent at once then you should use a takedown and strike from a safe distance.

But its very unlikely to win a fight when there's more then 1 person attacking you, so looking for positons that wont furher commit you to your opponent is kinda pointless

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#301620 - 11/21/06 07:21 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
Rainbowtiger Offline
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Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 95
Loc: Maryland, USA
Because I'm in a wheelchair I favor clinch techniques where I can use arm and head control which opens up elbows, punches, front chokes, and armbars. Vital strikes are always there; if I can I try to lay them out on my lap somehow that opens up strikes to the heart/lungs, spine, etc. depending on what is exposed while they are on my lap. RNC is there should they sit up. I can always use my chair as a weapon should it be needed. I try to stay in my chair but if I have to abandon it I play the top game looking to damage my opponent enough for me to get back in my chair or crawl away. I only take submissions that they give away and for self-defense I like chokes.

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#301621 - 11/21/06 09:38 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: dre9292]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

If you need to go away and quickly you shouldn't really try to stabilize a positon at all because any position will leave you vulnerable to attack from another person.




Some, more so than others. That was the point to begin with. The knee ride and side control position simply provides more mobility. I’m not saying one is any better than the other, just explaining the facts.


Quote:


If your talking about confronting more than a opponent at once then you should use a takedown and strike from a safe distance.




Like through cross-hairs? That would be MY idea, lol. I simply don’t want to fight more than one person. I don’t even want to fight ONE if I have the option.


Quote:


But its very unlikely to win a fight when there's more then 1 person attacking you, so looking for positons that wont furher commit you to your opponent is kinda pointless





I agree completely.


-John

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