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#301600 - 11/14/06 10:02 PM Street effective BJJ.
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
When it comes to fighting Im a striker first. Ive always grappled but never with formal training other than H.S. Greco Roman. Ive been working on BJJ lately and i wondered what the more experienced grapplers thought were the most effective techniques. I know the clinch works well, Im looking more along the lines of specific submissions. Thanks for the insight.
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#301601 - 11/14/06 10:14 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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"Knee-ride", while not a submission per se, is a very painful position for the person on the bottom, and can often make them submit anyway. It is a good position to control the opponent, and leaves you free to stand up quickly in the event of multiple opponents.
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#301602 - 11/14/06 10:58 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
This is just stream of consciousness, so bear that in mind.

Although I work a lot of boxing and clinch, I consider myself a jiu-jitsu fighter first and foremost.

For self-defense and street fighting, it's always run first. That's the one thing that everyone always agrees with, yet hates to hear at the same time because that isn't "sexy enough".

However if I am involved in a fight, I am always doing several things if I cannot run.

1. Clinching up. I train getting into the clinch religiously against partners who are working to strike and keep me out of the clinch.

In a fight, the first thing that I want to do if I can't escape, is clinch so that I'm not knocked the hell out. Within that clinch is the fight for dominant position. Out of that position and the reaction from your opponent to what you're doing are the take-downs. I look to drop or throw my opponent immediately. After the throw or drop, perhaps then I can escape.

If not you go to part 2.

2. Control position. First and foremost. I want to stay out of the guard and take a knee ride or mount position. Knee ride is a little better because of mobility. It's a little less stable but you're usually "floating" when playing knee ride in side control, so that isn't a factor anyway.

Most of the time with knee ride on someone who doesn't have a ground game, you bait them to roll belly down, exposing their backs. You take the RNC from there.

Two things can happen from the knee ride; 1) they can roll away from you exposing their backs and 2) they can roll toward you exposing their far arm for either the Kimura or spinning arm lock.

If it's a street fight, I'm usually looking to strike to create a reaction. Even then it's with an open hand slap. I'm just trying to get my opponent to turn and expose something one way or the other - I'm not looking to knock him out in "most" cases. That option is there, particularly from the mount with liberal doses of elbows.

The GUARD position is used in the case that I am on the bottom for whatever reason. It's not something that I would seek for as in a take-down. It's a defensive position from which you can defend against strikes, sweep, disengage to your feet or hit a submission that is presented.

My preference would be the top game, but it isn't ground and pound so much as it is based upon classical BJJ. I would NOT be looking to punch repeatedly as it really isn't necessary for a jiu-jitsu attack. Again, slapping works rather well and still creates certain reactions that the jiu-jitsu fighter is looking for.

One reason I'm not punching in a street fight is because of the cutting and bleeding. I don't want to get a lot of someone's blood on me, or into any cuts and scrapes that I may have, to the least extent possible.

Chokes are the first thing that I would look for. Next would be shoulder locks followed by arm-bars.

Chokes put people out. Shoulder locks tend to separate / dislocate shoulders and make it very difficult to fight. Arm-bars can do the same thing but a shoulder affects an entire side of the body whereas the arm-bar affects just the arm usually. Its my opinion that the shoulder lock may produce a more thorough effect in terms of structural damage caused. Each circumstance will be unique so you can't assume anything.

Leg locks I tend to forget about unless I'm already with my back against the ground in a bad position. I wouldn't sacrifice top for anything like that. Considering that jiu-jitsu is about positional control first, submission second, I want to control the positions at all times, taking a submission only when I'm absolutely CERTAIN that I will have it. Think like a sniper; one shot, one kill.


More later. Questions? I'll do my best to answer.


Good training!



-John

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#301603 - 11/14/06 11:47 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
What about leg or ankle locks while knee riding? Is that not much of a concern? With the balance being loose it would seem that it would be a viable reaction if they could sweep one way or the other.

From the top, what chokes are you looking for? Also, when in the clinch do you always seek the takedown or do you go for the choke there? Say Mata Leo for example. How much emphasis do you put on standup submission?

Also, can you not get the same reactions from a punch as a slap? It would seem to me that the opponent is going to block his face, still giving you the arm or back if he turns too much.
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#301604 - 11/15/06 12:49 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Effective techniques vary. You'll find some are more effective for you than others, and it will also depend on who you're up against. I have a very good triangle choke but there's some people I can't get with it, so I sometimes have to do some non-standard submissions. You'll want to cover everything. They won't necessarily be your go to moves, but you need the back up plans. You'll also find that you'll have an easier time getting submissions when you know the transitions from them. If you just practice the straight armbar, kimura, paintbrush, RNC and guillotine, even though they are high percentage moves, you won't get them as often as people who have a larger variety. Once you've done more techniques you have a better understanding of grappling overall, and also have a better "toolbox" to work with to make up necessary finishes on the spot for a situation you haven't been in before. In a street situation really the most effective submission is the one you can pull off right in the position you are in at that moment. It's good to have the standard high percentage ones, but more submissions from unusual positions is better.

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#301605 - 11/15/06 10:43 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
At the risk of embarassing myself (I've only completed 2 BJJ classes) isn't there a range of SD techniques that the Gracie's taught as part of BJJ?

My instructor alluded to this fact last week but didn't go into specifics. I did see a program though were Rickson Gracie performed Harai Goshi (not sure if they call it that in BJJ), which can be a very effective throw for SD.

I know this is a little off topic though, apologies.
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#301606 - 11/15/06 10:55 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Since you asked for specific submissions, I prefer chokes, I like the guilliotine, the rear naked choke and the arm triangle in particular they can all be done from either standing or on the ground and are very effective.

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#301607 - 11/15/06 10:58 AM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

What about leg or ankle locks while knee riding? Is that not much of a concern? With the balance being loose it would seem that it would be a viable reaction if they could sweep one way or the other.




With a proper knee-ride, leg or ankle locks are less of a concern than you might think. The support leg should be far away enough that the opponent cannot grab it easily, and all your weight is bearing down on their midsection. This makes moving that leg difficult for the opponent, and makes setting up armbars pretty easy.

And like JKogas said, if they roll, they either

* set up the armbar

* set up the RNC

Bad position for the person on the bottom.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#301608 - 11/15/06 02:17 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I find these strategies enlightening and different, becuase my approach is not like that. I perfer to stay at striking range unclinched. I feel comfortabel at this range and escape is always an option. But if I can't escape I'm always looking for an mistake or an opening were I can injuried my assailant with strikes.

If we clinch, I'm looking to knee, head butt and elbow, sweep or throw stay standing or kneeling if I can and continue to strike vitals now that he stunned by the contact of the ground. If he pulls me down on him, If he pulls me into a guard goes straight in for body control to avoid strikes, I know he has ground skills. And I'll pinch and bite and head butt, try to rise and throw elbows.

If (god forbid) I have to pull bottom, I continue to strike with palm/claws and use my thumbs, pull him close but release push him away and pull him close again (I don't want him bitting Me). I'm also trying to judge his reaction to determine how skilled he is, hopefully I can pull guard and I can keep him close and bite a hole in his neck or face anywhere to get a reaction, or get a choke or armlock from him pulling away from the missed neck bite.
I don't mind blood as long as its not mines (though I understand the bios of why you don't want bad blood on ya, but 1st thing 1st)
My goal is to retain my footage and regroup if he not severly damaged, continue the mayhem if he still want to fight. If he tries to escape I won't stop him I may even push him away from me. I may run and call Amcare from a public phone booth.

Ground fighting if it has to be done is (or to me is dangerous stuff).

Interesting approach to fighting feeling safe in a Clinch, Gulliotine chokes and leg locks whoa!!! You miss the GC or Leg lock and you r on bottom (most time) hoping for the Guard!!~ We fight as we Train. I'm all ears, wanting more and different approach to solve these problems.


Edited by Neko456 (11/15/06 02:27 PM)
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#301609 - 11/15/06 07:41 PM Re: Street effective BJJ. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Chen Zen wrote:
Quote:

What about leg or ankle locks while knee riding? Is that not much of a concern? With the balance being loose it would seem that it would be a viable reaction if they could sweep one way or the other.





Not from knee ride. With a proper knee ride, your opponentís arms wonít be in a position to easily attack your legs (without exposing himself to an attack anyway). His back will be on the ground, carrying your weight. Donít forget that your increased mobility in this position will allow you to quickly take advantage of your opponent when and if he moves out of good posture (such as to attack a leg, etc).

Balance isnít an issue either but bear in mind that a knee ride takes practice. You have to devote a lot of time to a good top game, which knee-ride is a part of. It doesnít happen overnight but with training, a good floating top game (including the knee ride) is a serious bitch to deal with. One of my veteran guys is 30 pounds lighter than I am. His knee-ride and side control game is a pain to deal with. There are just not a lot of things you can do from the bottom that doesnít expose you in some way to an attack. Anyone with decent timing can capitalize on a personís movements on the bottom. Itís the hardest position for me to escape from.

Once Matt Thornton was using a rolling pin knee-ride variation on me. I didnít tap from it, but he might STILL be there to this day if he hadnít tired of holding me there (so he switched off and arm-barred me from the mount)!


Quote:


From the top, what chokes are you looking for?





From the top, Iím looking to either get an arm triangle or preferably, roll him onto his stomach and get the RNC. If heís wearing a loose collar, some of the lapel chokes could become available. Generally itís the RNC in my neck of the woods.


Quote:


Also, when in the clinch do you always seek the takedown or do you go for the choke there? Say Mata Leo for example. How much emphasis do you put on standup submission?





Mata Leo (RNC) is something I personally donít like doing from standing. If I had a personís back to hit that, Iíd probably use a harness and hip bump (is that what you guys call ďshaking the blanketĒ Fletch?) to drop him to his butt. From there you can easily sink the choke while behind him.

I donít really like a lot of standing submissions because you simply leave too much to chance. Thatís especially true regarding the arms. The neck is another story, and there are some figure four chokes and cranks that can be effective from there. There is a ďhead chanceryĒ that can seriously torque the neck and is dangerous to practice hastily.

Perhaps the best attacks outside of takedowns are the knee strikes. Elbows are good as well. The longer you leave your opponent standing though, the more time you give him to fight back. Most clinch positions will break down eventually as your opponent is still somewhat mobile (as opposed to being on the ground on his back carrying your weight).

I prefer breaking my opponents posture down and working a front headlock. MANY people are very susceptible to that I have found. Itís a great position from which to throw knees or simply drag a person to the ground with. You can also work some decent chokes from there (brabo/ anaconda, etc).


Quote:


Also, can you not get the same reactions from a punch as a slap? It would seem to me that the opponent is going to block his face, still giving you the arm or back if he turns too much.





A slap works pretty well but you always have the option to punch/elbow. I am just thinking about jiu-jitsu as the gentle art and only using the force needed. Again, you can always up the level of force as required as you are (hopefully) in a dominant position. In terms of a public safety, security guard, or bouncer situation, you may not wish to punch if you have other options available. Sometimes its not a bad thing to try those options first and see where they get you, remembering that itís easy to switch to something with a little more ďjuiceĒ on it.


Prizewriter wrote:
Quote:

At the risk of embarrassing myself (I've only completed 2 BJJ classes) isn't there a range of SD techniques that the Gracie's taught as part of BJJ?





Yes there is, but I donít really care for the material too much. Itís too akin to these static, ďtextbookĒ moves reminiscent of more traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu.


Quote:


My instructor alluded to this fact last week but didn't go into specifics. I did see a program though were Rickson Gracie performed Harai Goshi (not sure if they call it that in BJJ), which can be a very effective throw for SD.





I love judo throws. They can work very well from the clinch. I get harai goshi all the time from a Kimura grip on one arm. Works well.



-John

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