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#300628 - 01/10/07 08:15 PM Re: Doce Pares [Re: hedkikr]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
That class was canceled but I attended this past Mon.

Some of the basic premises are different & felt odd. For instance:

The trapping hand doesn't follow the stick immediately, it accompanies it in order to grab the opponents stick. Don't know if I want to try that for real or w/ a blade.

The template is different. Instead of #1 being a forward strike to the head (opponents L-side) & #2 a backhand strike to the head (opponents R-side), #1 is a vertical (overhand) strike to the top of the head, #2 is a backhand strike to the opponents head (R-side) & #3 is a forward strike to the opponents head (L-side).

Otherwise it was enjoyable to be crackin' & whackin' again. I'll go back Sat. & keep @ it for a while befor making a decision.

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#300629 - 01/11/07 12:14 AM Re: Doce Pares [Re: mike-a]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA

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#300630 - 01/11/07 06:22 PM Re: Doce Pares [Re: hedkikr]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Very interesting. Stick fighting is so fast! It was also neat to see Crudelli spar a bit at the end. I saw a lot of Wing Chun coming out of him.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#300631 - 02/07/07 04:31 PM Re: Doce Pares [Re: Saisho]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Well, I've been training for about a month now so here's my update:

My previous experience was 14 yrs ago under a student of Bustillio (IMB). The differences between Doce Pares & the other are almost night & day.

First off, the stick is smaller in circumfrance - similar to Modern Arnis. The rationale is that it allows for faster techniques. True enough but the impact is considerably less - that age-old argument of speed vs. power.

Second - Because if the weight/speed factor, DP practices a lot more twirling that go beyond looking fancy. The rationale is that multiple hits @ multiple angles to multiple targets can be accomplished if the practitioner becomes proficient @ twirling.

Third - The template (striking pattern) is different. DP #1 is the top of the head, followed by (target's) R & L head (2&3), ribs (4&5), elbows (6&7), knees (8&9), collar-bone stabs (10&11) & center-line stab (12). I was used to #1&2 being the target's L&R head followed by cooresponding L&R targets down the body.

Fourth - Basics emphasize catching the stick during a block. I don't think I'll ever accept this concept because sticks whiz by so fast, trying to catch a stick is digit-suicide. I was taught that the trapping hand touched/deflected/controled the opponents hand & therefore the stick/knife/bolo. I'm afraid that muscle memory would lead a DP practitioner to inadvertently touch a live blade.

Fifth - DP uses a palm-up trapping hand in mid- and low-line defences. The term "jaws of the crocodile" is catchy & the technique works w/ stick grabbing but if grabbing isn't your thing, I prefer palm-down.

That's about it for now. I realize that as a beginner, I have to wait to see things unfold (so far, some things have made sense w/ practice). However, having prior training & a pretty good grasp of body mechanics, some techniques/concepts just seem a bit weird to me.

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#300632 - 02/07/07 05:19 PM Re: Doce Pares [Re: hedkikr]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
I have never grabbed a stick without having stopped it with some other technique. I would consider it a bit risky.

The jaws of the croc is a very good concept. I use it in most of my training.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#300633 - 02/08/07 01:50 AM Re: Doce Pares [Re: Saisho]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Risky yes...but to be fair & accurate, I wrote "grab during a block" meaning your stick stops the opponets stick & your checking hand grabs the opponents stick. Even if done perfectly, I'd rather my checking hand intercept the stick-wielding hand (not the stick itself).

The "Jaws" seem very awkward on the low line. Another difference is that DP doesn't utilize techniques for tip-down. I learned tip-down to block/deflect the low-line attacks. Squatting down to do the same seems too awkward & dangerous (leaving the head exposed on a combo strike - knee-head).

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#300634 - 02/08/07 10:57 AM Re: Doce Pares [Re: hedkikr]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
Grabbing the stick after a block is also common in Balintawak. I have done it a lot, but as you mentioned before, you have to make sure you don't develop habits that will appear in blade work.

I also agree with the 'tip down' defense. I think a low wing defense is very effective and feels very natural.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#300635 - 02/15/07 08:40 AM Re: Doce Pares [Re: Saisho]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
My brother and I have been training with single stick for about three months. We train with Dan Inosanto, Paul Vunak, Rick Young, Ted Lucay Lucay and most recently with in the Vee Arnis Jitsu system.

Although all of our isntructors are on DVD's we seem to be progressing wonderfully. The JKD system of the arnis comes from the LaCosta system which Dan Inosanto learned and has incorporated into JKD. We use Rick young, Paul Vunak as back up instructionals although they teach the same system, they each have developed drills for sensitivity and reflex, so having a nice amount of exercises at our current level to practice really keeps us busy and have made the last three months enjoyable.

So far we have trained in only 2 ranges, largo mano(far range) and in mid-range. We decided to use english terminology it less complicates things.

The Lacostas system according to these JKD instructors has 12 points of attack, but we train 5 to start with, it's simpler to teach and train 5, 12 can be for the advance person. At mid range each point has 4 basic blocks and counters, as well as in close range, close range meaning you can use the puno, the blunt tip on the bottom of the stick.

There are no forms in this version of stick fighting, there are exercises and drills, stances are not as important as footwork.

When we want to pracitce with contact as everyone should at some point, we use 14-15 ounce ever last boxing gloves. They serve as good guards protecting the hands and the wrists.

Um, there have been a few accidents, nothing really damaging just extremely painful. So far we have not made contact at long range which is incredible, however, at mid and short range we have banged up our hands while blocking. As many of you know when you swing the stick the actual target is the hand thats holding the weapon. You want to defang the snake at all times, then you have complete targets of oppertunity.

Anways even the slightest tap from the stick can really sting the fingers. I've had bumps grow on my knucks, really weird things. Black and purple bruises from just the slightest of taps.

From watching many examples of stick fighting tournaments, I approach the art from I guess a kendo perspective. I've only recently realize this, strange because I knew in kendo you do not clack swords over and over. The rule is supposed to be one swing one kill. And so it is similar with arnis. I always wondreed why kendo people practice thousands of times for that one perfect swing. Ofcourse in the movies, the sword fighters are chopping off heads and removing limbs with one swipe of their weapons. But in real life the real target is the hand holding the weapon.

It's all about juding distance and timing. Something that mostly happends from long range. Ofcourse this is just my novice interpretation of how arnis should be used. Because the mid and short range stuff seems very complex and tricky, at times nay; infact many times durring mid range blocking exercises I've notice that the sticks clack more than once, meaning with the added retraction of the stick, it is less possible to actually hold someone for even that split second for which you need to do a disarm. Which makes me believe that the mid and short range of stick fighting isn't as essential as long range. however, given that this approach to combat with sticks can be used for any type of weapon from knives, to sticks, swords, daggers, spears and whips. I supposed it is a good idea to take all ranges into consideration.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300636 - 02/15/07 09:17 AM Re: Doce Pares [Re: TeK9]
Saisho Offline
more than just a pretty face

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 620
Loc: Dayton, Ohio
It sounds like you are taking the initiative and learning what you can where you can. That is good. Make sure you are not trying to get ahead of where you should be in your training. Learning from video leaves no one to keep you in check.

Quote:

Anways even the slightest tap from the stick can really sting the fingers. I've had bumps grow on my knucks, really weird things. Black and purple bruises from just the slightest of taps.




I trained several years with an instructor that is a student of Inasanto and several other well known teachers. In that time, hands were cracked with sticks many times, but I don't remember any weird bumps developing. There was swelling, but nothing major. You might not be holding the stick tight enough. The stronger your grip on the stick, the less damage (even pain) getting hit will cause.
_________________________
Tony Partlow Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do Minamoto Shibu Dojo http://martialartsfriends.com/Shogen

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#300637 - 02/15/07 11:14 AM Re: Doce Pares [Re: Saisho]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
hmmm, well not bumps like pimples or anything. Nothin that is breaking or above the skin. I mean bumps beneath the epidermis, it's probably just fluid hardened by the slight swelling. Kind of like when you get stung by a bee or mosquito, you get a small annoying bump. In a way getting hit by the stick is exactly like it. It causes small swellings and it stings.

My brother and I are really taking our time. We've been developing equal skill with both sides and that takes time.

What I really enjoy about the JKD version or system of arnis, is how it easily overlaps into empty hand and knife fighting. I mean all the techniques you learn with the weapons are exchangeable with that other 500 or so weapons found in the Philipino systems. Learning how to use a weapon also teaches you how to use empty hands. It's a very well thought out system.

I hope some day I can take lessons from a teacher so I can polish up whatever errors I am commiting.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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