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#300170 - 11/17/06 05:23 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:


I had a discussion about GM Rhee many moons ago (as I have come through similar lines as well) and it was suggested that he taught the way he wanted. He was stocky and powerful could could quite literally finish things with one blow (and stated such in an interview once). This philosphy doesnt translate to everyone IMO, hence the need to teach more of the system above the 'one strike, one kill' philosphy.




Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk. Some of it gets a bit silly at times. Like suggesting he had better hands than Mohammed Ali. Or the person who once suggested Rhee could depacitate someone with his bare hands. He was powerful but not that powerful LOL. It's funny how these fairy stories grow.

I've seen some of these top people: The orientals who can kill you with one blow. (I'm nor suggesting it isn't possible since there are numerous recordings of people being killed in street fights). What I object to is the presumption that these people can do it at will.

It's funny how these types of people seem to thrive on this mythology. Compare them to a British martial artist such as Steve Morris who would wipe the floor with any of them. People like Steve Morris talk about the reality of combat based on their own very real experiences. In the seminars I attended some years ago he spoke about the fact that although he had never been beaten in a fight sometimes he had not looked too good afterward. And like I said, that's from someone who is more than capable of doing the business. A person who used to break engineering bricks rather than ordinary house bricks.

Sometimes truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

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#300171 - 11/17/06 07:09 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:


Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk.



No its true - I did have that conversation LOL
Whether the 'one strike one kill' is a capability of GM Rhee is true or not isnt the issue, it was his mind set (this was clear from his interview answer), possibly geared that way and due to this, other, more reasonable areas of training that others not so powerful could utilize and benefit from get/got relegated.


Quote:

People like Steve Morris talk about the reality of combat based on their own very real experiences.



Yeh, Steve Morris was a tough dude for sure and as you say, something a few other martial artists could learn a few things from!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300172 - 11/17/06 11:09 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well, GM Rhee, Ki Ha is in some shape. He is in much better shape than me. He is also a Grandfather & at least 70 years of age. He can still do those awesome push ups.

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#300173 - 11/20/06 10:53 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk. Some of it gets a bit silly at times. Like suggesting he had better hands than Mohammed Ali. Or the person who once suggested Rhee could depacitate someone with his bare hands. He was powerful but not that powerful LOL. It's funny how these fairy stories grow.<<<<

All I can say is that MasL must be one big dude if he says GM Rhee Ki Ha is not stocky. He may not be large overall like some NFL lineman but he is thick with hands like catcher's mits. Master Walt Lang told me of seeing him do a demo where GM Rhee held 4 boards in one hand, tossed them in the air and with the same hand did a backfist breaking them in mid air. Would that decapitate some one? Probably not. Would the results be sufficient? I think so!

Anyway, with regard to the 1 technique for victory / 1 strike one kill theory, there is some thought that poetic license was taken with the translation from Okinawa/ Japan. Perhaps a better translation is 1 opportunity for victory>

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#300174 - 11/20/06 01:42 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

>>>Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk. Some of it gets a bit silly at times. Like suggesting he had better hands than Mohammed Ali. Or the person who once suggested Rhee could depacitate someone with his bare hands. He was powerful but not that powerful LOL. It's funny how these fairy stories grow.<<<<

All I can say is that MasL must be one big dude if he says GM Rhee Ki Ha is not stocky. He may not be large overall like some NFL lineman but he is thick with hands like catcher's mits. Master Walt Lang told me of seeing him do a demo where GM Rhee held 4 boards in one hand, tossed them in the air and with the same hand did a backfist breaking them in mid air. Would that decapitate some one? Probably not. Would the results be sufficient? I think so!

Anyway, with regard to the 1 technique for victory / 1 strike one kill theory, there is some thought that poetic license was taken with the translation from Okinawa/ Japan. Perhaps a better translation is 1 opportunity for victory>




LOl some people would argue with an empty house. I said he wasn't THAT stocky. Do we really need to debate that?

As for the story, or fisherman's tale you put forward: I take it they were American boards?

Do you know what decapitate means? It doesn't mean "to give one a black eye". It doesn't mean "to break one's nose". It means to separate the head from the body.

So, I think you were almost there when you said "probably not"

MasL

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#300175 - 11/20/06 03:37 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>LOl some people would argue with an empty house. I said he wasn't THAT stocky. Do we really need to debate that? <<<

Not if I am arguing with an empty house.


>>>>As for the story, or fisherman's tale you put forward: I take it they were American boards?<<<<

I do not know their nationality. However it was during a time when the crappola boards we see today was not really know to exist. If I get a chance I will get more info.

>>>Do you know what decapitate means? It doesn't mean "to give one a black eye". It doesn't mean "to break one's nose". It means to separate the head from the body. <<<

Yes I know what it means . I had never heard the term used to describe what he could do until you told the story so I was simply acknowledging your right to some poetic license.

As for fisherman's tale, heck, told a guy while fishing I caught a 4 foot 48 pound Walleye. He told me he pulled up a 50 year old lantern from a wreck and it was still lit! I told him I would knock 20 pounds and a foot off the walley if he would say the lantern wasn't lit.

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#300176 - 11/20/06 04:07 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

I began training TKD in the mid-70s. My first instructors were first generation students of Rhee Ki Ha who graded us. Rhee was often quoted in the ITF as being the “best ever student” by Choi Hong Hi, ITF Founder. The training we received was old style Korean training.

After a period of time I began to do my own research. Looking a various texts, including the 1972 manual and books such as TKD by BS Huan I noticed that TKD supposedly contained basic Judo throws, trips and grappling that appeared to derive from Hapkido. These were not taught as part of the curriculum. ItfUnity has suggested this is the fault of the instructors. This is quite wrong. This is a leadership issue. The people at the top were at fault. This is clearly due to one thing and one thing only. If you have someone who is deliberately omitting part of the syllabus it is down to incompetence.

I also started my own research into TKD history and martial art history in general. Since TKD was supposedly derived from both Shorin and Shorei Okinawan karate it was clear or me that in some part it was related to styles such a Goju and Uechi Ryu. Through looking at various magazines and seeing articles on people such as Morio Higoanna it was apparent that these styles place a large emphasis on grappling, throws, locks, etc. Of course the reference for these moves were the kata. Rather than learn whole chunks of goju kata I instead looked for common ground in particular sequences or combinations. However it was clear that there was no room for any such training in the ITF instruction I was receiving.

What is taught in the ITF is what in karate would be called a basic type of bunkai. Almost a schoolboy type of training that if your tried it in reality would maybe get you seriously injured. This is usually done through one step sparring although there is no clear linkage to the patterns and it is usually up to the student to make this connection.

As for the more interesting stuff I encountered by attending for example seminars by leading authorities on Oyo it definitely it had no place in TKD. I can remember when there was a surge in interest in this type of training about 15 years ago. There was a magazine report on a Choi Hong Hi seminar in Australasia. The reporter had questioned Choi about the patterns at the seminar and received the usual explanations on the applications. When he suggested there may be more in depth explanations apparently Choi became quite flustered and stated they were his patterns and he knew what the explanation was. He simply wasn’t interested in any other viewpoint on the issue. And very few people I met in TKD ever were.

The point I am making is that this information has always been out there. But it has NEVER been part of ITF training in any way, shape or form. To suggest that this type of training is what Choi Hong Hi and the other leaders wanted or appreciated is quite wrong and indeed misleading.




I agree with this post 100%.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300177 - 11/20/06 10:01 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

MasL>>>>As for the story, or fisherman's tale you put forward: I take it they were American boards?<<<<




Well heres a picture of Master Park, June Tae doing 6 in the same fashion (though with a punch rather than a back fist)!



The text underneath it reads "Throwing 6 boards in the air and hitting the target with a front fist snap punch"
- seems it may not be such a fishy tale after all!


Edited by StuartA (11/20/06 10:05 PM)

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#300178 - 11/20/06 10:36 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Any idea where that picture was taken?

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#300179 - 11/22/06 02:54 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
wilcy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 2
A long time lurker and first time poster. And this is my short anthology of TKD, which might clear up some of the misconceptions about TKD, especially by the proponent of the MMA who claims TKD is irrelevant.

I grew up in Hawaii in the early 1970s, taking TKD from a Korean "traditional" instructor who also taught TKD in the Korean ROK army before he immigrated to the U.S. He was also a ROK, Vietnam vet. As a teen, I took TKD lesson every day, Monday to Friday, after school from 5 to 8 pm. On Saturday, the class would go from 10:00 am to 1 pm. I believe it cost my parents $10 per month for me to take TKD. It took me about 5 years to earn my first degree black belt; since then I moved to the "mainland," joined the Army, college, and career, and haven't had time to take any MAs.

Speaking from my experience during the early 70s, the TKD I was taught had a quite a few hand strikes, both open and close. We were taught to strike opponent's vulnerable parts, including strikes to the throat, groin, eyes, underarm, etc. Despite learning these hand tachics, we were always warned to never use them except for self-defence, only in dire situations. The instructor also taught some form of joint-manipulation and sweeps common in Hapkido. Moreover, low kicks below the waist were taught along side the popular, fancy high and spinning kicks. The low kicks consisted of kicks to the mid-section, waist, and to the thigh area. In a street fight, however, low kicks can be utilize to the ankle in an attempt to trip the attacker and then to finish him off. As the OP stated, there were no weapons training of any sorts, though on our own we would play around with the home-made numchucks.

As far as strengthening our fists and open hands for handstrikes, we would practice punching/chopping eye=level, propped up 2 X 4 wrapped with a rope. This was to develop callous on your knuckles etc. Followed by heavy-duty punching bag you would see a boxing gym. Any sort of mistakes or misbehavior would be punishable by bare-knuckle push ups which further strengthen our fists and wrists.

We also had two types of sparring, non-contact sparring (basically going through the motion) and full-contact sparring. The full-contact was also divided into two types; one without any safety helmut/pads/etc and one with. Typically during sparring, usually three or four black belts would line up on the one side and the red and other lower belts would line up on the other side, facing each other. The full contact sparring would last about 5 to 10 minutes. Then, the lower belt would rotate to the next black belt and spar him for the next 5 mintutes. Any time when an opponent is knocked to the ground, we were told to be "gentlemen" and restart from the stand up position. The helmut and pads were used for pre-tournament fights; so we can get used to them. After years of training, my friends and I were pretty good at fighting; all of us at high school grade level hanging around for protection.

Once in a while, the city of Honolulu would host "Karate" tournaments. At our school, we would have our own tournament to pick the best fighters for each age/belt level to represent the TKD school. Tournament would have other TKD schools from Hawaii, as well as Japanese style Karate schools and Kung Fu schools.

I don't know if any of you been to Hawaii, but the inner-city of Honolulu is a rough and tough place to grow up, especially if you are a Haole. Contrary to the popular notion of the Brazilian JJ, originally espoused by Rorian and Royce Gracie of the early UFC, in a street fight, the last place you want to end up is on the ground; you would end up being stomped to death like a squashed watermelon by someone who actually know how to stomp and kick. Personally, the TKD I learned, helped me survive my youth in Hawaii; "stick and move, stick and move, watch your sides and back, knock him down and go for the kill (not literally)."

As youth growing up in Hawaii in the early 1970s, one of our favorite past-time was going to a movie theater to watch the Bruce Lee movies. I don't know if you guys noticed, all the kicks he used in his movies look like TKD kicks. Since I was very familiar with school mates who took Kung-Fu, I can somewhat confidently say that Bruce Lee did not use Kung-Fu/Wushu kicks in his movies. One night as I browsing the internet, I came across several pics of Bruce Lee and a TKD intructor practicing sparring together. Could Bruce Lee have gotten some ideas from this TKD instructor?

Since I'm now a middle-age man who haven't practice TKD in some twenty-years, it's hard for me to recognize what a Tae Know Do is? Some of the videos uploaded unto this site are pretty laughable. The TKD matches during the last Olympic were pretty entertaining. However, one doesn't have to ever taken TKD to realize that, as one poster poignantly stated that it has become a martial "sports."

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