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#300160 - 11/15/06 11:35 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: Bottom Line: Taekwondo while an effective art, needs to wake up and start training and sparring more effectively. It's a sad reality for TKD people but its the way it is. If you want TKD to return to the old ways of hard knocks TKD then more people need to start speaking up against the way most TKDers spar. I couldn't agree more. This has been a constant criticism by both myself & Mr. Anslow. What people call TKD covers a broad range. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to clean up its poor image, which is well deserved. I can not speak about other types of TKD, but Ambassador Choi Art of Chang Hon or ITF style, needs 1st to look more closely & completely at his syllabus. Much of their mistakes can be corrected by simply following it more closely, in total. Edited by Dereck (11/16/06 09:24 AM)
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#300161 - 11/16/06 05:44 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Professional Poster Registered: 12/22/05 Posts: 2257 Loc: Northern California, USA	ITFUNITY My question was not directed at you only. It was also to Mr. Anslow and MasL. Mr. anslow in the article made mention that Master Choi himself perhaps did not know all the applications for even his own patterns. This to me brings up the argument that Master Choi like many other shotokan master really weren't masters of what true karate is in terms of self defense but more of what the modern day label of "sport karate". I bring this up because so many of the ITF affiliates love to bring up the emphasis on sparring and competition that WTF affilaited schools focus on. Yet in reality the TKD that ITF teaches is not up to snuff. The lack of applications being taught from the tuls brings the up my point that in TKD the practice of tuls is a waist if actual application is not taught along side them. Fromthe article it states that in many of the ITF schools and the applications Master Choi documented were merely a begginers view and in most cases impractical applications for self defense. _________________________ "Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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#300162 - 11/16/06 05:57 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
TeK9 Professional Poster Registered: 12/22/05 Posts: 2257 Loc: Northern California, USA	Bin, Your comparing art vs art right now. First you cant really do that, you cannot see which are is most effective without making it a death match. MMA styles in an MMA competition will surely beat any other style which does not adhere to those rules. MMA tounaments do not even allow the most basic of self defense techniques such as the wrist lock to be applied. Many arts place emphasis on vital areas, how can you judge these arts when compared to MMA. Jeet kune do and FMA go for the eyes a lot in order to break down the opponents defenses. How would a bjj fighter respond to that? many matches are put on pause because the UFC fighter got a thumb in the eye, recently happend to Matt Hughes. Bottom line Taekwondo is an effective self defense system. SELF DEFENSE being the key. Every aspect of sparring no matter how you approach it has benefits, some more than others. In judo if the practitioners were aloud to throw kicks and punches durring randori (sparring) then the judokas would never be as proficient with sweeps and throws are WTF practitioners are with kicks, because they spar in an atmosphere that allows them to develpe their kicking ability. Same as boxing, could a boxer be as good as a kick boxer if he wee to worry about kicks? From what I seen many kick boxers have sorry hands compared with pure boxers, because they seem tohave to combine both upper and lower body limbs durring attacks. A thai fighter who is very good in the clinch with his elbow and knees will find he wil have a very hard time with a bjj practitioners when pulled in the clinch and knocked to the ground. And even though Tahi fighters are very good at sweeping people down to the matt, what will they do once the bjj get down their with them? Thay become prey is what happends. It should never be about whether TKD can beat a Thai fighter, these arguments are for recreational, because the chances of them happening are ludicris. Thai fighters train for fighting, TKD trains mostly for self defense. I would choose a TMA that trains for pure self defense over an MMA which trains for competition. Even if the sparring in MMA is better, they still do not train for self defense, they train for sparring. Now if you get an MMA school which trains for self defense, then I would asume that the sparring that we see would be a whoe lot borring, it would not be so continuous. _________________________ "Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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#300163 - 11/16/06 09:17 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: ITFUNITY My question was not directed at you only. It was also to Mr. Anslow and MasL. Mr. anslow in the article made mention that Master Choi himself perhaps did not know all the applications for even his own patterns. many of the ITF affiliates love to bring up the emphasis on sparring and competition that WTF affilaited schools focus on. Yet in reality the TKD that ITF teaches is not up to snuff. The lack of applications being taught from the tuls brings the up my point that in TKD the practice of tuls is a waist if actual application is not taught along side them. Fromthe article it states that in many of the ITF schools and the applications Master Choi documented were merely a begginers view and in most cases impractical applications for self defense. I see, but would disagree. I have no idea if Ambassador Choi knew what many call the original, hidden or alternative applications for the patterns. I repeat that he did teach what he put forth as their application for the patterns he designed. I would not label them as basic, but straight forward. I also saw him de-bunk some applications, which some may interpet as alternative applications, even some I was first taught. I feel I can not debate this point any more fully, as I myself am not informed enough on those other applications. I would however reject the claim that the applications Mr. Choi put forth were impractial from a SD standpoint. They have worked for me, they are pretty straight forward. I also would not find fault with WTF schools, as in the WTF, there are no set standards in terms of the syllabus. Their standardization is based on the sport rules. I know some WTF schools that place a good deal of emphasis on SD. I am not sure we can paint that view with such a broad brush. I do acknowledge the well deserved poor reputation that many TKD schools suffer, due to the McDoJang influence, helped by the large amount of TKD schools world wide. In many cases, there are simply more TKD schools, therefore it is easy to see clearly the watering down effect.
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#300164 - 11/16/06 11:36 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Member Registered: 07/27/06 Posts: 443	Quote: ITFUNITY My question was not directed at you only. It was also to Mr. Anslow and MasL. Mr. anslow in the article made mention that Master Choi himself perhaps did not know all the applications for even his own patterns. This to me brings up the argument that Master Choi like many other shotokan master really weren't masters of what true karate is in terms of self defense but more of what the modern day label of "sport karate". I wouldnt say 'sport karate' as thats a totally different ball game, I would say they were Masters of what they knew, no more, no less. If we compare post-1940's masters from those that went before in knowledge terms (ie. indepth applications) they from what Ive read/heard theb pre-1940's masters had a better angle on what they did for sure - but the post-1940s were masters of their own thang (if you see my point). Like ITFunity I hold Gen Choi in high regards, not because he was the font of all knowledge, or even because he helped proliferate TKD on such a large scale, but simply because when you look at the big picture (time period, tools at hand etc) and what he needed to accomplish you can understand it was no mean feat back then. Sure we can pick holes in this and that now, thats easy as we have much more to hand to compare with. Quote: I bring this up because so many of the ITF affiliates love to bring up the emphasis on sparring and competition that WTF affilaited schools focus on. Yet in reality the TKD that ITF teaches is not up to snuff. The lack of applications being taught from the tuls brings the up my point that in TKD the practice of tuls is a waist if actual application is not taught along side them. Well yes and no. There are fringe benefits from tul practice, just they are not the benefits they were originally intended for and they can be utilized much much better! Quote: From the article it states that in many of the ITF schools and the applications Master Choi documented were merely a begginers view and in most cases impractical applications for self defense. Well, for the record I never said a 'beginners' view. I simply feel they are (in todays light) impractical, they have their uses, especially for visulization purposes, I just feel their are better options now we can research them moe fully, however, Gen Choi was not aware of these at the time! Finally, if you understand the asian mindset and his position (Head man in TKD, Military trainer, General etc) we can see that all that coupled togethor meant it very hard to admit perhaps something wasnt up to scartch - right or wrong - thats just the way it was/is! Stuart _________________________ "Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"
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#300165 - 11/16/06 01:27 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Enthusiast Registered: 07/12/05 Posts: 700 Loc: england	My view in some of this is that alot of it comes down to other things other than DOES A TECHNIQUE YOU ARE DOING FULFILL WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO,which is the most important thing.i.e ..if you are defending yourself does it save you.Do you get power...do you get speed..can you use it against resisting people.Can you fight. The reasons you do something..like a hip twist or whatever it is , should be scientifc and logical and usefull. It has nothing to do with the style or the founder or or the country or the history.Yet its coming into it lots. I think some of it is because we have been training for so long in something at times wont admit it was a waist of time.Too much for our egos to take so we are hunting and searching for something that could work though we are not sure. I think some things will work..others wont. Or we get blinded by biased and favouretism towards TKD. I think TKD has gone down hill and needs a boot up the arse.Its more about other things now than fighting or self defence.It is good for self defence against an average person using the simple things found in it. Its good to fight people under certain rules.To make it something else it has to be trained differently than most train it. You need to change things.Take whats succesfull on board and get rid of whats a bit silly. As for MMA ,i think the fact they train the techniques they use all the time and against resisting people and full contact and most are simple and have worked means they would beat a TKD guy who only trains for self defence. _________________________ I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.
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#300166 - 11/16/06 01:39 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
TeK9 Professional Poster Registered: 12/22/05 Posts: 2257 Loc: Northern California, USA	I used the word "sport karate" because it is what many of the karate practitioners of okinawan styles say about their japanese and korean counter parts. Because it is popularly believed that Mater Funakoshi taught his version of Okinawan style as the art of Shotokan similarly the way judo was introduced as an exercise course in the public school systems. Meaning Master Funakoshi deliberlatly changed the kata (forms/patterns) so they would not be as applicable to combat. He also did not teach bunkai (application) passed the begginers stage and he dd not teach tuite (pressure points and grappling). Like Master CHoi many of the other korea masters were trained in some form of japanese martial art and many actually were shotokan practitioners. It is the popular belief that karate practice today all having lineages from japanese shotokan are sports or watered down karate. Master Choi being himself a shotokan practitioner created his own style of shotokan. Infact many of the orignial kwans practiced shotokan patterns.To ths day some still do. I missed quoted the article, you did nt say "begginers" however, thats the word that came to mind when I was posting. You are corret muchof the applications taught from the forms are impractical. This is not to say that taekwondo itself is impreactical. Surely several masters have seen this and that is why hapkido,judo and jujutsu applications are used to fll in the blanks left out from kata. In korea much of the "spors" based schoools, also teach hapkido self defense but stil call their schools taekwondo. And ofcourse judo is just as popular world wide. _________________________ "Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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#300167 - 11/16/06 02:10 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	Quote: Or we get blinded by biased and favouretism towards TKD. I think TKD has gone down hill and needs a boot up the arse. You need to change things. As for MMA ,i think the fact they train the techniques they use all the time and against resisting people and full contact and most are simple and have worked means they would beat a TKD guy who only trains for self defence. I couldn't agree more with your entire post. I however, liked these 3 points best. I would add that many people do in fact have a bias towards TKD. I was one of them. I TRY hard now to be more open minded. I would also say that many have bias' against TKD as well. While many criticisms are warranted, many are done from an un-informed view point. TKD does need a wakeup call. If they refuse to hear it, they should just IMHO call it a martial sport. The success that MMAs have is exactly becasue the train with realism. This is the part of the ITF or Chang Hon style syllabus that is often over looked by students & instructors alike. Ambassador Choi, clearly commands in his instructions to train under realistic conditions. If Taekwon-Doins did at least that, they would go a long way towards getting it right. There is just too much disregard for the syllabus - as it was laid out by the Founder.
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#300168 - 11/16/06 02:20 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Professional Poster Registered: 07/15/06 Posts: 2053	TeK9: I will repeat my acknowledgement that TKD needs a wake up call. However, many simply do not realize that the syllabus & instructions are in place for the Art to be better suited for SD. Keep in mind 2 points: The Founder stated clearly the aim or focus of TKD was to build better students, not just physically. In fact, the physical side is secondary. Second, many fail to acknowledge the success of the north Koreans in developing their students to be brutal defenders, in addition to outstanding players on the world sports stage. This has happened post 1980, some 35 years after the post-occupation of Korea. I lot of attention is focused on the sport aspect pushed by south Korea. They acknowledge & credit 1 person for that. That is the person they see as the true founder, Ambassador Choi, Hong Hi. There has been little other influence or Kwans that we know of in the north of Korea. What they do is simply ITF or Chang Hon style of Taekwon-Do, as the founder intended, in its greatest form, absent many of the influences that many others complain about.
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#300169 - 11/16/06 07:39 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Member Registered: 07/27/06 Posts: 443	Quote: I used the word "sport karate" because it is what many of the karate practitioners of okinawan styles say about their japanese and korean counter parts. Okay, now I understand why you use the term 'sport karate'. to me (in the UK as well) sport karate has a different meaning. I have never heard it termed in that way before. Quote: Because it is popularly believed that Mater Funakoshi taught his version of Okinawan style as the art of Shotokan similarly the way judo was introduced as an exercise course in the public school systems. Meaning Master Funakoshi deliberlatly changed the kata (forms/patterns) so they would not be as applicable to combat. Actually, that is incorrect - a true master of the Bunkai, Mastumara - changed them for the Okinawan school system before Funakoshi even taught in japan - Funakoshi wasnt taught them - an okinawan master changed and took them out! I can look up the exact dates if needed! And kano diliberatly changed what he knew to make it less dangerous, Funakoshi AFAIA did the same but not to remove the dangerous bunkai, but simply to make it more applicable to schools (like splitting 1 kata into 5). Quote: He also did not teach bunkai (application) passed the begginers stage and he dd not teach tuite (pressure points and grappling). Like Gen Choi - he couldnt teach what he didnt know! Quote: Like Master CHoi many of the other korea masters were trained in some form of japanese martial art and many actually were shotokan practitioners. It is the popular belief that karate practice today all having lineages from japanese shotokan are sports or watered down karate. Watered down yes, but not by their own doing - as I said abov, you cannot teach what you didnt know (back then at least). Back then it was all strike and block - no one knew any different! Quote: I missed quoted the article, you did nt say "begginers" however, thats the word that came to mind when I was posting. thats cool, I just didnt want to be tagged with something I didnt say. Quote: You are corret muchof the applications taught from the forms are impractical. Not any more Quote: This is not to say that taekwondo itself is impreactical. Surely several masters have seen this and that is why hapkido,judo and jujutsu applications are used to fll in the blanks left out from kata. As well as pure TKD instructors who determined their own (vicious) applications! Besides, many of the apps many would term as 'from the above' are actually int he patterns, including locks and throws! Quote: In korea much of the "spors" based schoools, also teach hapkido self defense but stil call their schools taekwondo. And ofcourse judo is just as popular world wide. Yup, but TKD as formulated has much of it already ingrained into itself - this is undenyable whether the founder actually realised it or not. By basing TKD largely on shotokan, which was based larged on okinawa-te where the apps were rife - they has been kept, sort of on ice, until we melt it down again. Now we do that and TKD becomes even better than first realised! For me at least, Im glad its worked out this way, sure it would have been better for them to always have been seen, but that just wasnt the case, but this is better than then not ever being there at all! Stuart _________________________ "Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"
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