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#300120 - 11/08/06 10:28 AM Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Article you may be interested in

--- Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths ---


Enjoy,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300121 - 11/08/06 10:57 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
StuartA,

This is indeed and interesting article, and I am glad to see someone in the world has your apporach to TKD. If I ever travel to the UK, I would love to take part in some of your classes.

However, I fear instructors like you are few and becoming fewer. Yes, TKD features sweeps, throws, joint-locks and other techniques. Approached in the right way, TKD could indeed be a more "complete" MA.

However, for the last 20+ years, most of the TKD practicing world has been bending over backwards to make TKD a sport. Morever, they have been trying to make TKD into a mass PARTICPANT sport, rather than a mass spectator sport. The effect of this on the overall quality of TKD as a martial art has been devastating.

There is nothing wrong with a martial art possesing a sporting aspect; most MAs do. However, in most MAs, it is understood that the sport aspct is not a aspect every practioners can or should participate in.

Unfortunately, the WTF has decided everyone from small children to tenenagers to the elderly needs to compete in tournaments. While the young and fit might be willing to get punched in the face, swept to the floor, or pinned to the ground, almost nobody else is. This has led to the gutting of TKD via absurd rules (e.g. no hitting in the face with the hands).

Most TKD schools today train students to bounce around with their chins up (a great way to get kncoked out) and hands down (and even better way to get knocked out) while try to tag each other with wild, high kicks. On one hand this has succeeded in opening open TKD to more people as a martial sport. On the other, it has virtually destroyed TKD as a practical martial art.

My point is while all the features of TKD you outlined do exist, they only rarely practiced. The idea that TKD lacks these features is therefor often true at street level.

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#300122 - 11/08/06 10:57 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Very good article, Stuart. I was not aware that weapons training was not part of TKD - almost every school I have seen had some.

Still not convinced on your kata/dead training argument, though.


Edited by MattJ (11/08/06 10:58 AM)
_________________________
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#300123 - 11/08/06 11:59 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MattJ]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Very good article, Stuart. I was not aware that weapons training was not part of TKD - almost every school I have seen had some.




That's interesting Matt, you see I've never seen weapons used at a TKD school before. I've seen a fair amount of weapon defense against knives and sticks, but little intruction on how to actually attack with them. I was under the impression that weapons ina TKD environment usually meant a leaning towards XMA.

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#300124 - 11/08/06 12:06 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Supremor]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Wh ydo they tell you to have oyur chin up and out and your hands down? And why do they never teach good punchign skills. One TKD instructor I've had taught great close range punching and boxing skills and he used to be a boxer but all the rest teach garbage. bah!
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#300125 - 11/08/06 12:27 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Stormdragon]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
TKD practioners are not actually taught to keep their chins up and hands down. These bad habits just tend to develop naturally as a result of training for tournaments with silly restrictions. It makes perfect sense.

For example, since no one is permitted to hit his or her opponent in the face, practioners never realize what a vulnerable target the chin is. Amateur boxers, by contrast, learn this early because those who fail to keep their chins tucked in are quickly knocked out.

Holding one's hands up takes energy. Since no one is permitted to hit in the face with the hands, and since most competitors are fast enough to bring their hands up when blocking kicks, keeping the hands down becomes a habit. When hitting in the face with the hands is permitted, the extra energy keeping one's hands up is worth expending for reasons of defense. When hitting in the face with the hands is forbidden, keeping the hands up is a waste of energy.

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#300126 - 11/08/06 01:08 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MattJ]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:

I was not aware that weapons training was not part of TKD - almost every school I have seen had some.




Like you Matt, most of the tkd schools around here offer weapons training as well. Most of the tournaments have weapons competitions as well. Granted, I understand that weapons weren't originally part of TKD, but if most schools are teaching it now, then I would say that it has now become part of TKD.

Laura

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#300127 - 11/08/06 01:13 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
This is a good article. And I also think that TKD, if taught to its fullness, is much more of a complete MA than most people think. It also takes a good teacher. I've had two Sabumnims in my TKD career and both of them were/are great teachers in that they do teach the complete art of TKD AND they are quite adaptative. Much like Bruce Lee's philosophy of discarding the useless and absorbing what's useful.
I do have a couple questions though.
1. How do you know Gen. Choi was opposed to tournaments?
2. I don't have the encyclopedia yet but doesn't it cover the use of each technique? If so, what is the difference between the encyclopedia and the book that you wrote (I have never read that either so I'm just asking, not criticizing).

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#300128 - 11/08/06 03:07 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: vegantkd]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


1. How do you know Gen. Choi was opposed to tournaments?




I've heard this as well, although I thought that Gen Choi said that competition should be used in a non-contact manner in order that students could demonstrate their skills. He was dead against full contact.

Quote:

2. I don't have the encyclopedia yet but doesn't it cover the use of each technique? If so, what is the difference between the encyclopedia and the book that you wrote (I have never read that either so I'm just asking, not criticizing).




Mr Anslow's book I believe, is an applications book. So although the TKD encyclopedia shows all the techniques and suggests targets etc. but does not show applications- looking beneath the surface of a technique. I was quite sceptical about the extent to which this could be done without distorting the forms somewhat, but after training with Shoshinkan(karate mod) I found out the ways in which moves in patterns could be interpreted, with lots of self defense techniques including grappling, instead of just blocking and striking.

I hope I haven't misrepresented Mr Anslow's views, I'm sure he can giver a clearer response.

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#300129 - 11/08/06 03:44 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Well, I guess I don't understand the qualifications to the myth busting article. TKD can be trained in just about any way you would like it to be under any banner as long as you call it TKD.

I am not saying TKD doesn't, or can't have the things suggested in the article. But the question still remains, how many folk in "your" particular school practice more with hand techniques than not? And that would be despite a larger quantity of described hand techniques than kicking? How do you spar taking these hand techniques into question? Do you allow throwing and grapping in the sparring? How many actually practice sparring using head contact and low leg kicks? How many practice full contact? How many practice with weapons?

If your school doesn't, then this myth busting article really isn't busting any myths. What I am pointing out is that the possibility of saying any art, regardless of what you call it, can be made to contain any quantity of techniques. However, the actual truth would be if you practiced what your preached. If you don't, then the myth busting article is not applicable....because the reasons for the myths still exist---at least for the ones not doing what the articles suggests might be possible.

-B

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#300130 - 11/08/06 04:15 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: butterfly]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Interesting read but it is one person's prospective and probably is written other ways by other people. However I can agree with most of this and after reading this I thank my lucky stars for where I train at.

We do have weapons but is only taught at black belt level and higher; Nunchucks. I however have already started this training back when I was a red belt so have been doing this for just over a year, though I have still a lot to accomplish and only have the basics. I believe due to the Hapkido influence this is why we have this in our curriculum, though it isn't too often.

On that thought, our training from our Instructor is from his Master from South Korea. This training is Taekwondo and Hapkido so does include the sweeps, throws and joint locks. I always assumed, and I still could be right, that this was more from the Hapkido portion as it also originally included basic grappling. We have expanded on this due to JJJ/BJJ but the basics were there prior. I was hoping to read that grappling was also a part of the original training. I do know of other schools that this is at 3rd Dan and higher as a part of the curriculum and testing, us included, though it is basics only for them whereas we do this from white belt level and higher.

Interesting enough but sad in other aspects. This just goes to prove just how watered down many schools are now.
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#300131 - 11/08/06 04:18 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: butterfly]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Well, I guess I don't understand the qualifications to the myth busting article. TKD can be trained in just about any way you would like it to be under any banner as long as you call it TKD.




I agree with Brad, train it in any way you want with adding or deleting aspects as long as you keep the basics that makes it TKD and it remains TKD. Isn't that how most martial arts came to be? Started with something and then it was changed to be made better ... and in some cases worse, as a lot of TKD schools have proven. (Disclaimer, same can be said for any other martial art but this is a discussion about TKD only). Martial arts have evolved over time but they still remain tied to their basics which gave it their name.
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#300132 - 11/08/06 08:09 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: butterfly]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Well, I guess I don't understand the qualifications to the myth busting article. TKD can be trained in just about any way you would like it to be under any banner as long as you call it TKD.



Firstly, the article refers only to the Ch'ang Hon style of TKD. Secondly, with that in mind, General Choi had his own ideas on how it should be trained so technically, changing these things is not an evolution but a bastardization (to a point). Just calling something TKD doesnt make it so.. I can call an apple an orange as it has many of the same charactoristics, but its still an apple!! What do you mean by "you dont understand the qualifications" - it is based on the how, whys and what TKD was originally designed for!!

Quote:

I am not saying TKD doesn't, or can't have the things suggested in the article. But the question still remains, how many folk in "your" particular school practice more with hand techniques than not?



We do!

Quote:

And that would be despite a larger quantity of described hand techniques than kicking?



Exactly one of the reasons!

Quote:

How do you spar taking these hand techniques into question?



Quite easily really.. even dangerouis techniques for senior students as they learn how to control them but still make them viable as a training technique.

Quote:

Do you allow throwing and grapping in the sparring?



Yes

Quote:

How many actually practice sparring using head contact and low leg kicks?



We do.

Quote:

How many practice full contact?



We do, but not all the time and only for adult senior grades

Quote:

How many practice with weapons?



We dont, though we do practice anti-weapons against knife, stick, short stick and occassionally gun (though I learnt it through a military combat instructor)

Quote:

If your school doesn't, then this myth busting article really isn't busting any myths.



Eh! Do you mean to say if you school does!!

Quote:

What I am pointing out is that the possibility of saying any art, regardless of what you call it, can be made to contain any quantity of techniques. However, the actual truth would be if you practiced what your preached.



Well we do, or else I would commit to print that we do!

Quote:

If you don't, then the myth busting article is not applicable....because the reasons for the myths still exist---at least for the ones not doing what the articles suggests might be possible.



Lost me there!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300133 - 11/08/06 08:11 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: fileboy2002]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This is indeed and interesting article, and I am glad to see someone in the world has your apporach to TKD. If I ever travel to the UK, I would love to take part in some of your classes.



Welcome any time your in the UK

Quote:

My point is while all the features of TKD you outlined do exist, they only rarely practiced. The idea that TKD lacks these features is therefor often true at street level.



Yes it is, but its not TKD that is lacking, but the schools themselves that dont teach these parts!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300134 - 11/08/06 08:12 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MattJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Very good article, Stuart. I was not aware that weapons training was not part of TKD - almost every school I have seen had some.



AFAIA, most schools that teach weapons are an add on - meaning the instructor has learnt them via a different art or more often has done a short course on them. They are and never were part of the Ch'ang Hon TKD system.

Quote:

Still not convinced on your kata/dead training argument, though.



Each to his own my friend.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300135 - 11/08/06 08:14 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: tkd_high_green]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Like you Matt, most of the tkd schools around here offer weapons training as well. Most of the tournaments have weapons competitions as well. Granted, I understand that weapons weren't originally part of TKD, but if most schools are teaching it now, then I would say that it has now become part of TKD.

Laura




Good observation Laura, but technically they havnt become part of TKD, just part of what schools offer to teach. We do groundwork, but its not part of TKD (and I dont bill it as such) - I teach it to make my students more complete. Other added things are there for varying reasons but they arnt part of TKD.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300136 - 11/08/06 08:20 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: vegantkd]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This is a good article. And I also think that TKD, if taught to its fullness, is much more of a complete MA than most people think.



Yes indeed.

Quote:

1. How do you know Gen. Choi was opposed to tournaments?



Ive heard it from a number of 'in the know' sources and even read it in an old interview with the General. I mention the interviews in the book but havnt got the mags anymore sadly. Others (like Supremor) can verify as they have heard the same too. In fact I think it may be in one of his books (either his autobigraphy or the manuals of certain years)


Quote:

2. I don't have the encyclopedia yet but doesn't it cover the use of each technique? If so, what is the difference between the encyclopedia and the book that you wrote (I have never read that either so I'm just asking, not criticizing).



Supremor has done a good job of pointing out some of the differences, but even though the manuals show some applications, they are not always very good ones and not all patterns techniques are represented. The biggest thing of all is that the applications in the manuals are based on the thinking of block/strike, whereas my book delves much deeper into their origins where you find a block isnt really a block but a lock or release, or a throw etc etc. I guess the only way to really see the difference to to compare the two - perhaps someone who has both would like a bash at explaining this!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (11/08/06 08:34 PM)
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#300137 - 11/08/06 08:26 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Dereck]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Interesting read but it is one person's prospective and probably is written other ways by other people.



True, but the one person is the acknowledged arts founder (or main proponent of the art, syllabus designer, main comittee member - how ever you wish to view him).. I just pointed out things that many seem to have forgotton!

Quote:

We do have weapons but is only taught at black belt level and higher; Nunchucks.



Going back to the issues about weapons in TKD, 'chucks' are a Okinawa or chinese weapon I believe.. they are not even traditional korean weapons, hence they are an addition, not part of TKD (or even korean arts that I know of, even the ones that do teach weapons)

Quote:

On that thought, our training from our Instructor is from his Master from South Korea. This training is Taekwondo and Hapkido so does include the sweeps, throws and joint locks. I always assumed, and I still could be right, that this was more from the Hapkido portion as it also originally included basic grappling.



More than likely, as i believe the WTF has been expanding its fields via other influences for a while now and many WTF instructors are Hapkido trained as well. Like I said, I refer only to the Ch'ang Hon system which has all those elements included as standard (even if they have ceased to become standard anymore).

Quote:

Interesting enough but sad in other aspects. This just goes to prove just how watered down many schools are now.



Yes, yes, yes.. hence why I pointed out in the article ... "However, this is competition and many students and especially those who do not train in Taekwon-do can't dissimilate ‘this is competition' from ‘this is Taekwon-do'."

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (11/08/06 08:40 PM)

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#300138 - 11/09/06 12:28 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: vegantkd]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

This is a good article. And I also think that TKD, if taught to its fullness, is much more of a complete MA than most people think. It also takes a good teacher. I've had two Sabumnims in my TKD career and both of them were/are great teachers in that they do teach the complete art of TKD AND they are quite adaptative. Much like Bruce Lee's philosophy of discarding the useless and absorbing what's useful.
I do have a couple questions though.
1. How do you know Gen. Choi was opposed to tournaments?
2. I don't have the encyclopedia yet but doesn't it cover the use of each technique? If so, what is the difference between the encyclopedia and the book that you wrote (I have never read that either so I'm just asking, not criticizing).





Ambassador Choi was not so much OPPOSSED to tournaments. Rather he was aware of the limitations of tournaments with respect to self defence.He stated repeatedly, that tournaments rightfully concentrated on scoring points. Therefore, many techniques, due to safety, were eliminated. Also, since the object was to score points, players would concentrate on a few favorite techniques. He described this as cock fighting. It was one of the main reasons why he insisted that sparring did not take place in one's training till they were 4th gup blue belt. A fact often misunderstood & rarely followed.

He knew tournament sparring had a place in his Taekwon-Do, but asked that it was not confused with free sparring or HooSinSul.

As far as the books go, there is no comparision of the 15 Volume Encylopdia & Mr. Anslow's book. They are 2 entirely different books with much a different focus. The 15 volumes set is a documentation of his Art of Taekwon-Do, often called ITF TKD or more approriately (IMHO) called Chang Hon style of TKD. He did not cling to the older interpation or more original applications of the pattern techniques. He may not have even known them. He did of course offer very straight forward applications for HIS Tuls.

Mr. Anslow's really great book, a must IMHO, deals with some great topics, such as histroy, but mainly focuses on finding original or alternative applications for the moves of the 1st 7 Tuls. A really well done book, with great additions in the appendix etc.

The problem with TKD's much deserved poor reputation for self defense, has to do with its popularity. It is the worlds most popular MA. As such, it suffers from a very bad watering down. This has been made much worse from the political interference of governments, with regards to the black listing of ITF instructors & the corresponding flight from its syllabus. The creation of the WTF (1973) 7 years after the ITF (1966) was an early example. The push for its inclusion in the Olympics & its inclusion since 1988, has also led to an emphasis on one narrow aspect of a true modern Art of SD. Therefore we have many McDoJangs all over the place, that unfortanetly teach a very watered down sport, with the focus on a very narrow part of the Art.

ITF Tournaments have 5 areas of competition:
1-sparring
2-patterns
3-power
4-special techniques
5-pre-arranged fighting scenarios

Ambassador Choi, felt that competition should not focus only on sparring. He was fully supportive of full contact, but not so much with fighting. That is what the power test was for. He embraced the safety equipment, but wanted control, as that would allow more techniques to be used & would help prevent the match from turning into a slug-fest. He did not think that was an Art, nor was it visually pleasing for an audience.

As Mr. Anslow states & does in his school, this is what Taekwon-Do fighting should be. His more closely reflects what a true ITF school should do, following the key ingredient of the Founder, REALISM. If one follows this syllabus, they can't help but be a more rounded fighter.

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#300139 - 11/09/06 12:59 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Stormdragon]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Quote:

Wh ydo they tell you to have oyur chin up and out and your hands down? And why do they never teach good punchign skills. One TKD instructor I've had taught great close range punching and boxing skills and he used to be a boxer but all the rest teach garbage. bah!




My understanding/strategy is this:
When you are using your kicks to keep your opponent at range you keep your hands lower and your body loser in order to increase your spead and make it easyer to block kicks. If he moves in close to you then you bring your arms up and tuck your chin.

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#300140 - 11/09/06 01:38 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Umbra_777]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

My understanding/strategy is this:
When you are using your kicks to keep your opponent at range you keep your hands lower and your body loser in order to increase your spead and make it easyer to block kicks. If he moves in close to you then you bring your arms up and tuck your chin.




That just doesn't cut the mustard for me. I prefer to keep my hands up the whole time. When at longer range, your guard can be more mobile and looser, but you should still keep your hands up ready to guard any head shots.

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#300141 - 11/10/06 11:21 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
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Quote:

That just doesn't cut the mustard for me. I prefer to keep my hands up the whole time. When at longer range, your guard can be more mobile and looser, but you should still keep your hands up ready to guard any head shots.




Regarding the hands up thing, this isn't only in TKD but in other martial arts as well ... not to mention the sport of boxing. If you watch enough boxing, and I have, you will notice many a fighter who have unorthodox fighting styles and have their hands down. So this is not just something TKD is bad for.
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#300142 - 11/10/06 02:51 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Dereck]
dinodude73 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 7
Loc: MN
Wow over 2000 hand strikes I had no idea there were that many, I guess I have alot of training ahead of me!
Great article thanks
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#300143 - 11/10/06 09:30 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: dinodude73]
TaekwondoWned Offline
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Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.

-Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great. So what? The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills. The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky... You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.

-Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms? Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.

-Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.

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#300144 - 11/10/06 11:59 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Most strikes cannot be done in contact sparring because they hit vital areas of te body. pen and strikes can best be practiced as step sparring. Before you immediatly assume step sparring to be as formal as forms/patterns. There are many ways to alter step sparring. For one let go of the traditional stances and stand in a casual stance, second have your atacker attack in an upright stance which is more realistic.

Also keep in mind that in self defense it is very unlikely that the person acttacking you will be a trained fighter, there fore makesure you know how to read your opponenets body language. A non trained attacker will telegraph. Many ways to spot these things.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300145 - 11/11/06 12:09 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.

-Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great. So what? The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills. The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky... You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.

-Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms? Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.

-Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.





I agree, but the mistake you make is putting the fault on the Art Form of Taekwon-Do. It is not the Art, IMHO that is wrong, but the student, instructor, training methods employed & the disregard of the training/advancement syllabus designed by the Founder, Ambassador Choi, Hong Hi.

One of the reasons that TKD gets a much deserved bad rap, as an effective SD system is that there are so many schools. It is the world's most popular MA. However, what most people see & train is NOT a MA, but rather a martial sport & babysitting service.

I think the way I believe Mr. Anslow trains his charges, is similiar to my understanding of the syllabus. I do think that if more people fully understood the Chang Hon or ITF syllabus, they would not have these critiques. The much deserved criticism should be placed on the instructors & groups that teach such a watered down version of a great MA.

A prime example of this is 1 step sparring. According to the syllabus, this is introduced at 6th gup green belt level. The OPPONENTS, not partners, do in fact take a relaxed stance facing each other. The attacker is required to strike to hit, without letting the opponent know it is coming. There is no 1st stepping back into another stance before attacker, you just attack & try to hit.
In addition, these 2000 hand techniques are to be trained against focus pads, heavy bags & live OPPONENTS under realistic conditions. I believe these are many of the same tactics employed in the combat Arts systems.

It has been my experience in over 30 years of study, spanning 4 decades, that it is the instructor, the false instructor, the ill or uneducated instructor who cheats their students by not following the syllabus of the Art, as designed by the Founder. This is compounded by the vast amount of schools that exists. This is true with most things that are mass produced. For example, find a great restrurant. Try to duplicate it & it is hard. Different Chef, harder to find the food products in certain areas, etc.
TKD's problem is further compounded by so much emphasis on sport fighting, which most of us know, does little for street SD.

This should not be construed to mean that TKD can be AS effective as a combat system of SD, where the entire emphasis is on SD. It is just common sense if one's focus is on 1 area, than that area will be more fully developed. I think that goes without saying.

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#300146 - 11/13/06 08:22 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.



Not that I agree with your first line as what do you based this conclusion on? As for not 'debunking' anything - it doesnt if you already know, but many dont hence myths become truths!

Quote:

Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great.



Actually it was TKD is mostly kicks - which many believe due to the sport kicking aspect. So debunked!

Quote:

The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills.



As I say in the book, I differeniate fighting from self defence. Fighting is what you end up doing if SD goes wrong!

Quote:

The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky...



This is competition and based on a rule set. I could just as easily say the kickings rubbish in boxing as that has a rule set too! You are talking sport, the article is talking martial arts!

Quote:

You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.



Yup, hence traditional sparring, hosinsul, pattern based sparring etc etc - there are many training methods to incorporate hand strikes!


Quote:

Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms?



Again, it says "TKD has no low kicks" - it doesnt say just in forms!

Quote:

Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.



Yup - mentions that in that section of the article!

Quote:

Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.



Again you refer to fighting - sparring is not fighting, sparring is sparring. And fighting is not self defence, fighting is what you end up doing when your self defence goes wrong!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300147 - 11/13/06 11:14 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
TaekwondoWned Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Quote:

Quote:

Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.



Not that I agree with your first line as what do you based this conclusion on? As for not 'debunking' anything - it doesnt if you already know, but many dont hence myths become truths!

Quote:

Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great.



Actually it was TKD is mostly kicks - which many believe due to the sport kicking aspect. So debunked!

Quote:

The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills.



As I say in the book, I differeniate fighting from self defence. Fighting is what you end up doing if SD goes wrong!

Quote:

The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky...



This is competition and based on a rule set. I could just as easily say the kickings rubbish in boxing as that has a rule set too! You are talking sport, the article is talking martial arts!

Quote:

You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.



Yup, hence traditional sparring, hosinsul, pattern based sparring etc etc - there are many training methods to incorporate hand strikes!


Quote:

Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms?



Again, it says "TKD has no low kicks" - it doesnt say just in forms!

Quote:

Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.



Yup - mentions that in that section of the article!

Quote:

Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.



Again you refer to fighting - sparring is not fighting, sparring is sparring. And fighting is not self defence, fighting is what you end up doing when your self defence goes wrong!

Stuart




What are you talking about? I was debunking YOUR debunking. Stop being so naive.

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#300148 - 11/13/06 11:57 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

What are you talking about? I was debunking YOUR debunking. Stop being so naive.



Naive - lol! That, I cannot assure I am not.
Good come back btw - not!

There area lot of misconceptions surrounding TKD, hence the article (which was an excert from a book on Ch'ang Hon TKD btw). Unfortunatly, though I am very open to all honest views, you actually didnt debunk the debunk, just twisted a few of the things around and made some comments!

Out of interest, what style do you practice?

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (11/14/06 12:11 AM)

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#300149 - 11/14/06 06:30 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
TaekwondoWned Offline
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Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Quote:

Quote:

What are you talking about? I was debunking YOUR debunking. Stop being so naive.



Naive - lol! That, I cannot assure I am not.
Good come back btw - not!

There area lot of misconceptions surrounding TKD, hence the article (which was an excert from a book on Ch'ang Hon TKD btw). Unfortunatly, though I am very open to all honest views, you actually didnt debunk the debunk, just twisted a few of the things around and made some comments!

Out of interest, what style do you practice?

Stuart




proud Taekwondo and Judo guy (hopefully BJJ will be added as well)

Look, all I'm saying is taekwondo as practiced by 95% of the tkd population and how its practiced generally in modern times is inferior to some other striking arts. If someone asked me to recommend a striking art I would not say TKD.

I would say kikcboxing, san shou, muay thai, or kyokushin karate or boxing

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#300150 - 11/14/06 06:53 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
MattJ Offline
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Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

What are you talking about? I was debunking YOUR debunking. Stop being so naive.




Bin -

Play nice or your stay here will be very breif.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#300151 - 11/15/06 07:19 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

proud Taekwondo and Judo guy (hopefully BJJ will be added as well)



All the arts you mention here have similar myths - none are the same as they were first formulated!

Quote:

Look, all I'm saying is taekwondo as practiced by 95% of the tkd population and how its practiced generally in modern times is inferior to some other striking arts. If someone asked me to recommend a striking art I would not say TKD.



Your opinion is fine and valid..(though doesnt debunk the debunk list ) - the question is though, if you feel that way, why are you doing it?

Quote:

I would say kikcboxing, san shou, muay thai, or kyokushin karate or boxing



Yet none of them feature in the list of arts you train in (or hope to)!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300152 - 11/15/06 08:50 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Your post is only reffering to purely sports based schools. And even those schools teach the students the hand techniques however, the students rarely practice how to use them. But the entire art can not be judged by one school alone.

One thing that should be brought up though is that taekwondo has so many hand techniques and yet the majorty are not represented in the forms/patterns. But it you go to a good school they will teach you how to use this strikes. So it brings up the question that if these strikes are taght with out the use of forms, why have forms when you can teach the individual techniques without them. This is the way jujutsu and hapkido is taught as pure self defense and noone denies these as being "arts".
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300153 - 11/15/06 09:51 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
I began training TKD in the mid-70s. My first instructors were first generation students of Rhee Ki Ha who graded us. Rhee was often quoted in the ITF as being the “best ever student” by Choi Hong Hi, ITF Founder. The training we received was old style Korean training.

After a period of time I began to do my own research. Looking a various texts, including the 1972 manual and books such as TKD by BS Huan I noticed that TKD supposedly contained basic Judo throws, trips and grappling that appeared to derive from Hapkido. These were not taught as part of the curriculum. ItfUnity has suggested this is the fault of the instructors. This is quite wrong. This is a leadership issue. The people at the top were at fault. This is clearly due to one thing and one thing only. If you have someone who is deliberately omitting part of the syllabus it is down to incompetence.

I also started my own research into TKD history and martial art history in general. Since TKD was supposedly derived from both Shorin and Shorei Okinawan karate it was clear or me that in some part it was related to styles such a Goju and Uechi Ryu. Through looking at various magazines and seeing articles on people such as Morio Higoanna it was apparent that these styles place a large emphasis on grappling, throws, locks, etc. Of course the reference for these moves were the kata. Rather than learn whole chunks of goju kata I instead looked for common ground in particular sequences or combinations. However it was clear that there was no room for any such training in the ITF instruction I was receiving.

What is taught in the ITF is what in karate would be called a basic type of bunkai. Almost a schoolboy type of training that if your tried it in reality would maybe get you seriously injured. This is usually done through one step sparring although there is no clear linkage to the patterns and it is usually up to the student to make this connection.

As for the more interesting stuff I encountered by attending for example seminars by leading authorities on Oyo it definitely it had no place in TKD. I can remember when there was a surge in interest in this type of training about 15 years ago. There was a magazine report on a Choi Hong Hi seminar in Australasia. The reporter had questioned Choi about the patterns at the seminar and received the usual explanations on the applications. When he suggested there may be more in depth explanations apparently Choi became quite flustered and stated they were his patterns and he knew what the explanation was. He simply wasn’t interested in any other viewpoint on the issue. And very few people I met in TKD ever were.

The point I am making is that this information has always been out there. But it has NEVER been part of ITF training in any way, shape or form. To suggest that this type of training is what Choi Hong Hi and the other leaders wanted or appreciated is quite wrong and indeed misleading.

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#300154 - 11/15/06 11:09 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I began training TKD in the mid-70s. My first instructors were first generation students of Rhee Ki Ha who graded us. Rhee was often quoted in the ITF as being the “best ever student” by Choi Hong Hi, ITF Founder. The training we received was old style Korean training.



I had a discussion about GM Rhee many moons ago (as I have come through similar lines as well) and it was suggested that he taught the way he wanted. He was stocky and powerful could could quite literally finish things with one blow (and stated such in an interview once). This philosphy doesnt translate to everyone IMO, hence the need to teach more of the system above the 'one strike, one kill' philosphy.

Quote:

After a period of time I began to do my own research. Looking a various texts, including the 1972 manual and books such as TKD by BS Huan I noticed that TKD supposedly contained basic Judo throws, trips and grappling that appeared to derive from Hapkido. These were not taught as part of the curriculum.



But still means they are part of the system as they are there in b/w. The fact that the UKTA didnt teach them, doesnt mean they were/are not part of the system! Bayonet defences arnt taught anymore (if at all outside of the army) but they were still part of the system!

Quote:

ItfUnity has suggested this is the fault of the instructors. This is quite wrong. This is a leadership issue. The people at the top were at fault.



I agree with both of you. It is an instructors fault if they dont chose to teach them, but a leadership fault if they are not endorsed to the instructors.

Quote:

This is clearly due to one thing and one thing only. If you have someone who is deliberately omitting part of the syllabus it is down to incompetence.



Yes & no. I also think that perhaps too much emphasis was made into promoting TKD on a wide scale, and whilst doing this certain things were ignored or ceased to help, rightly or wrongly, propogate this.

Quote:

However it was clear that there was no room for any such training in the ITF instruction I was receiving.



Not in yours, but theres plenty of room for it in the instruction I give!

Quote:

There was a magazine report on a Choi Hong Hi seminar in Australasia. The reporter had questioned Choi about the patterns at the seminar and received the usual explanations on the applications. When he suggested there may be more in depth explanations apparently Choi became quite flustered and stated they were his patterns and he knew what the explanation was. He simply wasn’t interested in any other viewpoint on the issue. And very few people I met in TKD ever were.



I agree and have covered this in the book to some extent. But i also feel that many more were involved in the formation and early years of TKD and those who like you and I didnt much care for the 'dodgy' apps went and sort out better, more appropriate ones. The same is true of the early pioneers, even if they didnt become mainstream applications.

Quote:

The point I am making is that this information has always been out there. But it has NEVER been part of ITF training in any way, shape or form.



Yes it has, as you said yourself its in the books and training in it is purely down to what school you have attended and how the instructor felt about certain aspects of training.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300155 - 11/15/06 01:15 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

ItfUnity has suggested this is the fault of the instructors. This is quite wrong. This is a leadership issue. The people at the top were at fault.



I agree with both of you. It is an instructors fault if they dont chose to teach them, but a leadership fault if they are not endorsed to the instructors.




Quote:

Quote:

There was a magazine report on a Choi Hong Hi seminar in Australasia. The reporter had questioned Choi about the patterns at the seminar and received the usual explanations on the applications. When he suggested there may be more in depth explanations apparently Choi became quite flustered and stated they were his patterns and he knew what the explanation was. He simply wasn’t interested in any other viewpoint on the issue. And very few people I met in TKD ever were.



I agree and have covered this in the book to some extent.
Stuart




Yes & I would agree with both of you. It is the fault of the instructor. Yes, the organization or those that over see the individual schools or area, should have helped correct the limitation. I agree with the constant criticism of TKD & its severe limitations. I just think, like Mr. Anslow does, that it is not so much the fault of the Art, but of the failure to follow the syllabus. The Founder laid out a fairly comprehensive system. He was most concerned with his movement & his patterns. This is what he covered. It was his signature. I also agree that since these were his patterns, he would be the one to best describe the applications. That doesn't mean that there are not more complex applications, from these moves, as they of course in most cases, pre-dated his patterns. I also would agree that he may not have even know them all (hidden or orginal applications). The thing I always fall back on, is his manuals were not so much about what to do in a given instance, but rather, learn the 3,200+ movements & apply them as each individual situation calls for. The thing that most instructors/schools leave out, is his very specific direction, to train under realistic conditions.

So is it the Art or the leadership that is at fault?

Under his leadership - he was able to spread his patterns & movement, worldwide, with an unprecedanted standardization. That is a very BIG accomplishment. Could he have done more? Of course, but his priorities were different. He acknowledges short comings, especially with the DO. After all, how much can one man do? I think the rest is up to us.

When I started, I was encouraged to buy the Ambassador's books. I brought the 1972 text, often referred to as "the Bible of TKD". It contained over 500 pages, maybe 517-9(?). In my school, we did only about 100 pages of what was covered in the book. That is maybe 20%! When I asked my teacher why we didn't do the rest, he said it was not important. So, it never dawned on me to try them. When I took my 1st training with the Founder, my students & peers asked me what did I learn & I told them I learned I didn't know anything about TKD. That was after 10 years of diligent training. I have spent the next 20+ years trying to learn & realize I still have so much more to learn.


Edited by Dereck (11/15/06 01:39 PM)

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#300156 - 11/15/06 02:48 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
May I ask why you give Master Choi so much credit. Obviously Mr. Anslow and MasL both agree that the applications from the ITF TKD were just were begginers techniques and most were highly questionable. And to me it is quite obvious that Master Choi was not very knowledgable about the applications found in forms particularly his forms. Which is why authors le Mr. Anslow exist.

Much of the old school korean karate contained judo, hapkido, jujutsu and karate. Because all the old korean masters trained in these arts and when it was time to go home back to korea they came up with their particular styles which all were. It was until Choi decided to unite them under one name. That doesnt mean he created an art, perhaps he developed his own style and methods of teaching but what about all the other masters who brought their skils and techniques to the table, why do people forget about them?

Who cares about the ITF organization, they can't regulate anything they can't even get along with themselves I mean theres like 3 versions of it correct?

It's the individual instructor that counts is it not? I learn Moo Duk Kwan style of tang soo do/taekwondo, my instructor emphasized self defense. We learned kicks and strikes and locks and throws. From him I learned that Moo Duk Kwan whether TSD or TKD it was the same style under wo different names. The ones that stuck with Master Kee and the ones who went with Master Choi who eventally ended up parting ways with him anyways.

This style empahsized self defense and hih flying kicks. The self defense was clearly judo/jujutsu. Or probably some Chi Na rip off.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300157 - 11/15/06 09:22 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
TaekwondoWned Offline
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Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Bottom Line: Taekwondo while an effective art, needs to wake up and start training and sparring more effectively.

MMA and ninties style-vs-style tourneys have proven the following arts are the strongest because they train and spar the best and most realistically:

Sambo, Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Wrestling

It's a sad reality for TKD people but its the way it is. If you want TKD to return to the old ways of hard knocks TKD then more people need to start speaking up against the way most TKDers spar.

I think TKD is good for self defense but it's definitely not in the upper echelon of martial arts. 9 times out of 10, given equal training time and no body defects, the practitioners of above mentioned arts would win against somebody who knows only TKD.

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#300158 - 11/15/06 09:49 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Bottom Line: Taekwondo while an effective art, needs to wake up and start training and sparring more effectively.



I think most would agree with that as an overall - though its not the same for all TKD schools, dont tar them all with the same brush!

Quote:

MMA and ninties style-vs-style tourneys have proven the following arts are the strongest because they train and spar the best and most realistically:



Your MMA guys have won MMA comps - erm, hardly surprsing that! Are there any pure martial arts 'style Vs style' comps any more, most if not all that enter those cross-train anyway!

Quote:

Sambo, Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Wrestling



Okay, I get your point but when was the last time a pure Judo man, a pure boxer, a san shou man or even a pure wrestler, pure kick boxer or pure thai boxer win a high profile (UFC type) MMA tournament? (BTW, I'm not a major UFC fan but have seem a reasonable ammount to notice the cross-train fighters win mostly)

Quote:

It's a sad reality for TKD people but its the way it is. If you want TKD to return to the old ways of hard knocks TKD then more people need to start speaking up against the way most TKDers spar.



Again, I dont disagree with you on this point - the sport for sports sake has taken over too much!

Quote:

9 times out of 10, given equal training time and no body defects, the practitioners of above mentioned arts would win against somebody who knows only TKD.



As an interesting note, when the ITF display team were doing their tours (Vietnam, Malaysia etc) after the demos there was always an open invitation to fight any member of the demo team. GM Kong was often selected due to his height (small stature) and fought 127 times and never lost a fight! So my 127-0 pips your 9 out of 10

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300159 - 11/15/06 11:30 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well, I will cut to the chase, getting away from the difference in semantics! The bottom line as to why I hold Ambassador Choi in such high regard, was because I have met many people & have traveled the world. He sticks out in my mind as a giant of a man. I learned so much from him. My life has been made better, through his gift. I have put a lot of effort over most of my lifetime to comprehend what he put forth. Call it a MA, a way of life, Korean Karate, Karate, TKD, OhDoKwan, Chang Hon, whatever. I have spent 30+ years, spanning 4 decades, in some 25 Countries, digging deeply into his writings & teachings. I have not spent anytime in another MA. I feel not competent to comment on other Arts, nor can I be qualified to compare & contrast them, with his teachings. I do feel rather strongly that I have some understanding of his syllabus. It has been my experience, that those who critize, do not have an understanding as deep as mine.

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#300160 - 11/15/06 11:35 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Bottom Line: Taekwondo while an effective art, needs to wake up and start training and sparring more effectively.
It's a sad reality for TKD people but its the way it is. If you want TKD to return to the old ways of hard knocks TKD then more people need to start speaking up against the way most TKDers spar.




I couldn't agree more. This has been a constant criticism by both myself & Mr. Anslow. What people call TKD covers a broad range. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to clean up its poor image, which is well deserved. I can not speak about other types of TKD, but Ambassador Choi Art of Chang Hon or ITF style, needs 1st to look more closely & completely at his syllabus. Much of their mistakes can be corrected by simply following it more closely, in total.


Edited by Dereck (11/16/06 09:24 AM)

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#300161 - 11/16/06 05:44 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
ITFUNITY
My question was not directed at you only. It was also to Mr. Anslow and MasL.

Mr. anslow in the article made mention that Master Choi himself perhaps did not know all the applications for even his own patterns. This to me brings up the argument that Master Choi like many other shotokan master really weren't masters of what true karate is in terms of self defense but more of what the modern day label of "sport karate". I bring this up because so many of the ITF affiliates love to bring up the emphasis on sparring and competition that WTF affilaited schools focus on. Yet in reality the TKD that ITF teaches is not up to snuff. The lack of applications being taught from the tuls brings the up my point that in TKD the practice of tuls is a waist if actual application is not taught along side them. Fromthe article it states that in many of the ITF schools and the applications Master Choi documented were merely a begginers view and in most cases impractical applications for self defense.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300162 - 11/16/06 05:57 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Bin,

Your comparing art vs art right now. First you cant really do that, you cannot see which are is most effective without making it a death match.

MMA styles in an MMA competition will surely beat any other style which does not adhere to those rules. MMA tounaments do not even allow the most basic of self defense techniques such as the wrist lock to be applied. Many arts place emphasis on vital areas, how can you judge these arts when compared to MMA. Jeet kune do and FMA go for the eyes a lot in order to break down the opponents defenses. How would a bjj fighter respond to that? many matches are put on pause because the UFC fighter got a thumb in the eye, recently happend to Matt Hughes.

Bottom line Taekwondo is an effective self defense system. SELF DEFENSE being the key. Every aspect of sparring no matter how you approach it has benefits, some more than others. In judo if the practitioners were aloud to throw kicks and punches durring randori (sparring) then the judokas would never be as proficient with sweeps and throws are WTF practitioners are with kicks, because they spar in an atmosphere that allows them to develpe their kicking ability.

Same as boxing, could a boxer be as good as a kick boxer if he wee to worry about kicks? From what I seen many kick boxers have sorry hands compared with pure boxers, because they seem tohave to combine both upper and lower body limbs durring attacks.

A thai fighter who is very good in the clinch with his elbow and knees will find he wil have a very hard time with a bjj practitioners when pulled in the clinch and knocked to the ground. And even though Tahi fighters are very good at sweeping people down to the matt, what will they do once the bjj get down their with them? Thay become prey is what happends.

It should never be about whether TKD can beat a Thai fighter, these arguments are for recreational, because the chances of them happening are ludicris. Thai fighters train for fighting, TKD trains mostly for self defense. I would choose a TMA that trains for pure self defense over an MMA which trains for competition. Even if the sparring in MMA is better, they still do not train for self defense, they train for sparring.

Now if you get an MMA school which trains for self defense, then I would asume that the sparring that we see would be a whoe lot borring, it would not be so continuous.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300163 - 11/16/06 09:17 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFUNITY
My question was not directed at you only. It was also to Mr. Anslow and MasL.

Mr. anslow in the article made mention that Master Choi himself perhaps did not know all the applications for even his own patterns. many of the ITF affiliates love to bring up the emphasis on sparring and competition that WTF affilaited schools focus on. Yet in reality the TKD that ITF teaches is not up to snuff. The lack of applications being taught from the tuls brings the up my point that in TKD the practice of tuls is a waist if actual application is not taught along side them. Fromthe article it states that in many of the ITF schools and the applications Master Choi documented were merely a begginers view and in most cases impractical applications for self defense.




I see, but would disagree. I have no idea if Ambassador Choi knew what many call the original, hidden or alternative applications for the patterns. I repeat that he did teach what he put forth as their application for the patterns he designed. I would not label them as basic, but straight forward. I also saw him de-bunk some applications, which some may interpet as alternative applications, even some I was first taught. I feel I can not debate this point any more fully, as I myself am not informed enough on those other applications. I would however reject the claim that the applications Mr. Choi put forth were impractial from a SD standpoint. They have worked for me, they are pretty straight forward. I also would not find fault with WTF schools, as in the WTF, there are no set standards in terms of the syllabus. Their standardization is based on the sport rules. I know some WTF schools that place a good deal of emphasis on SD. I am not sure we can paint that view with such a broad brush.

I do acknowledge the well deserved poor reputation that many TKD schools suffer, due to the McDoJang influence, helped by the large amount of TKD schools world wide. In many cases, there are simply more TKD schools, therefore it is easy to see clearly the watering down effect.

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#300164 - 11/16/06 11:36 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

ITFUNITY
My question was not directed at you only. It was also to Mr. Anslow and MasL.

Mr. anslow in the article made mention that Master Choi himself perhaps did not know all the applications for even his own patterns. This to me brings up the argument that Master Choi like many other shotokan master really weren't masters of what true karate is in terms of self defense but more of what the modern day label of "sport karate".



I wouldnt say 'sport karate' as thats a totally different ball game, I would say they were Masters of what they knew, no more, no less. If we compare post-1940's masters from those that went before in knowledge terms (ie. indepth applications) they from what Ive read/heard theb pre-1940's masters had a better angle on what they did for sure - but the post-1940s were masters of their own thang (if you see my point).

Like ITFunity I hold Gen Choi in high regards, not because he was the font of all knowledge, or even because he helped proliferate TKD on such a large scale, but simply because when you look at the big picture (time period, tools at hand etc) and what he needed to accomplish you can understand it was no mean feat back then. Sure we can pick holes in this and that now, thats easy as we have much more to hand to compare with.

Quote:

I bring this up because so many of the ITF affiliates love to bring up the emphasis on sparring and competition that WTF affilaited schools focus on. Yet in reality the TKD that ITF teaches is not up to snuff. The lack of applications being taught from the tuls brings the up my point that in TKD the practice of tuls is a waist if actual application is not taught along side them.



Well yes and no. There are fringe benefits from tul practice, just they are not the benefits they were originally intended for and they can be utilized much much better!

Quote:

From the article it states that in many of the ITF schools and the applications Master Choi documented were merely a begginers view and in most cases impractical applications for self defense.



Well, for the record I never said a 'beginners' view. I simply feel they are (in todays light) impractical, they have their uses, especially for visulization purposes, I just feel their are better options now we can research them moe fully, however, Gen Choi was not aware of these at the time!

Finally, if you understand the asian mindset and his position (Head man in TKD, Military trainer, General etc) we can see that all that coupled togethor meant it very hard to admit perhaps something wasnt up to scartch - right or wrong - thats just the way it was/is!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300165 - 11/16/06 01:27 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
My view in some of this is that alot of it comes down to other things other than DOES A TECHNIQUE YOU ARE DOING FULFILL WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO,which is the most important thing.i.e ..if you are defending yourself does it save you.Do you get power...do you get speed..can you use it against resisting people.Can you fight.
The reasons you do something..like a hip twist or whatever it is , should be scientifc and logical and usefull.
It has nothing to do with the style or the founder or or the country or the history.Yet its coming into it lots.
I think some of it is because we have been training for so long in something at times wont admit it was a waist of time.Too much for our egos to take so we are hunting and searching for something that could work though we are not sure.
I think some things will work..others wont.
Or we get blinded by biased and favouretism towards TKD.

I think TKD has gone down hill and needs a boot up the arse.Its more about other things now than fighting or self defence.It is good for self defence against an average person using the simple things found in it.
Its good to fight people under certain rules.To make it something else it has to be trained differently than most train it.
You need to change things.Take whats succesfull on board and get rid of whats a bit silly.

As for MMA ,i think the fact they train the techniques they use all the time and against resisting people and full contact and most are simple and have worked means they would beat a TKD guy who only trains for self defence.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#300166 - 11/16/06 01:39 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I used the word "sport karate" because it is what many of the karate practitioners of okinawan styles say about their japanese and korean counter parts. Because it is popularly believed that Mater Funakoshi taught his version of Okinawan style as the art of Shotokan similarly the way judo was introduced as an exercise course in the public school systems. Meaning Master Funakoshi deliberlatly changed the kata (forms/patterns) so they would not be as applicable to combat. He also did not teach bunkai (application) passed the begginers stage and he dd not teach tuite (pressure points and grappling). Like Master CHoi many of the other korea masters were trained in some form of japanese martial art and many actually were shotokan practitioners. It is the popular belief that karate practice today all having lineages from japanese shotokan are sports or watered down karate. Master Choi being himself a shotokan practitioner created his own style of shotokan. Infact many of the orignial kwans practiced shotokan patterns.To ths day some still do.

I missed quoted the article, you did nt say "begginers" however, thats the word that came to mind when I was posting. You are corret muchof the applications taught from the forms are impractical. This is not to say that taekwondo itself is impreactical. Surely several masters have seen this and that is why hapkido,judo and jujutsu applications are used to fll in the blanks left out from kata.

In korea much of the "spors" based schoools, also teach hapkido self defense but stil call their schools taekwondo. And ofcourse judo is just as popular world wide.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300167 - 11/16/06 02:10 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Or we get blinded by biased and favouretism towards TKD.

I think TKD has gone down hill and needs a boot up the arse.
You need to change things.

As for MMA ,i think the fact they train the techniques they use all the time and against resisting people and full contact and most are simple and have worked means they would beat a TKD guy who only trains for self defence.




I couldn't agree more with your entire post. I however, liked these 3 points best. I would add that many people do in fact have a bias towards TKD. I was one of them. I TRY hard now to be more open minded. I would also say that many have bias' against TKD as well. While many criticisms are warranted, many are done from an un-informed view point.

TKD does need a wakeup call. If they refuse to hear it, they should just IMHO call it a martial sport.

The success that MMAs have is exactly becasue the train with realism. This is the part of the ITF or Chang Hon style syllabus that is often over looked by students & instructors alike. Ambassador Choi, clearly commands in his instructions to train under realistic conditions.

If Taekwon-Doins did at least that, they would go a long way towards getting it right. There is just too much disregard for the syllabus - as it was laid out by the Founder.

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#300168 - 11/16/06 02:20 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
TeK9:

I will repeat my acknowledgement that TKD needs a wake up call. However, many simply do not realize that the syllabus & instructions are in place for the Art to be better suited for SD. Keep in mind 2 points:
The Founder stated clearly the aim or focus of TKD was to build better students, not just physically. In fact, the physical side is secondary.
Second, many fail to acknowledge the success of the north Koreans in developing their students to be brutal defenders, in addition to outstanding players on the world sports stage. This has happened post 1980, some 35 years after the post-occupation of Korea. I lot of attention is focused on the sport aspect pushed by south Korea. They acknowledge & credit 1 person for that. That is the person they see as the true founder, Ambassador Choi, Hong Hi. There has been little other influence or Kwans that we know of in the north of Korea. What they do is simply ITF or Chang Hon style of Taekwon-Do, as the founder intended, in its greatest form, absent many of the influences that many others complain about.

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#300169 - 11/16/06 07:39 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I used the word "sport karate" because it is what many of the karate practitioners of okinawan styles say about their japanese and korean counter parts.



Okay, now I understand why you use the term 'sport karate'. to me (in the UK as well) sport karate has a different meaning. I have never heard it termed in that way before.

Quote:

Because it is popularly believed that Mater Funakoshi taught his version of Okinawan style as the art of Shotokan similarly the way judo was introduced as an exercise course in the public school systems. Meaning Master Funakoshi deliberlatly changed the kata (forms/patterns) so they would not be as applicable to combat.



Actually, that is incorrect - a true master of the Bunkai, Mastumara - changed them for the Okinawan school system before Funakoshi even taught in japan - Funakoshi wasnt taught them - an okinawan master changed and took them out! I can look up the exact dates if needed! And kano diliberatly changed what he knew to make it less dangerous, Funakoshi AFAIA did the same but not to remove the dangerous bunkai, but simply to make it more applicable to schools (like splitting 1 kata into 5).

Quote:

He also did not teach bunkai (application) passed the begginers stage and he dd not teach tuite (pressure points and grappling).



Like Gen Choi - he couldnt teach what he didnt know!

Quote:

Like Master CHoi many of the other korea masters were trained in some form of japanese martial art and many actually were shotokan practitioners. It is the popular belief that karate practice today all having lineages from japanese shotokan are sports or watered down karate.



Watered down yes, but not by their own doing - as I said abov, you cannot teach what you didnt know (back then at least). Back then it was all strike and block - no one knew any different!

Quote:

I missed quoted the article, you did nt say "begginers" however, thats the word that came to mind when I was posting.



thats cool, I just didnt want to be tagged with something I didnt say.

Quote:

You are corret muchof the applications taught from the forms are impractical.



Not any more

Quote:

This is not to say that taekwondo itself is impreactical. Surely several masters have seen this and that is why hapkido,judo and jujutsu applications are used to fll in the blanks left out from kata.



As well as pure TKD instructors who determined their own (vicious) applications! Besides, many of the apps many would term as 'from the above' are actually int he patterns, including locks and throws!

Quote:

In korea much of the "spors" based schoools, also teach hapkido self defense but stil call their schools taekwondo. And ofcourse judo is just as popular world wide.



Yup, but TKD as formulated has much of it already ingrained into itself - this is undenyable whether the founder actually realised it or not. By basing TKD largely on shotokan, which was based larged on okinawa-te where the apps were rife - they has been kept, sort of on ice, until we melt it down again. Now we do that and TKD becomes even better than first realised! For me at least, Im glad its worked out this way, sure it would have been better for them to always have been seen, but that just wasnt the case, but this is better than then not ever being there at all!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300170 - 11/17/06 05:23 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:


I had a discussion about GM Rhee many moons ago (as I have come through similar lines as well) and it was suggested that he taught the way he wanted. He was stocky and powerful could could quite literally finish things with one blow (and stated such in an interview once). This philosphy doesnt translate to everyone IMO, hence the need to teach more of the system above the 'one strike, one kill' philosphy.




Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk. Some of it gets a bit silly at times. Like suggesting he had better hands than Mohammed Ali. Or the person who once suggested Rhee could depacitate someone with his bare hands. He was powerful but not that powerful LOL. It's funny how these fairy stories grow.

I've seen some of these top people: The orientals who can kill you with one blow. (I'm nor suggesting it isn't possible since there are numerous recordings of people being killed in street fights). What I object to is the presumption that these people can do it at will.

It's funny how these types of people seem to thrive on this mythology. Compare them to a British martial artist such as Steve Morris who would wipe the floor with any of them. People like Steve Morris talk about the reality of combat based on their own very real experiences. In the seminars I attended some years ago he spoke about the fact that although he had never been beaten in a fight sometimes he had not looked too good afterward. And like I said, that's from someone who is more than capable of doing the business. A person who used to break engineering bricks rather than ordinary house bricks.

Sometimes truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

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#300171 - 11/17/06 07:09 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:


Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk.



No its true - I did have that conversation LOL
Whether the 'one strike one kill' is a capability of GM Rhee is true or not isnt the issue, it was his mind set (this was clear from his interview answer), possibly geared that way and due to this, other, more reasonable areas of training that others not so powerful could utilize and benefit from get/got relegated.


Quote:

People like Steve Morris talk about the reality of combat based on their own very real experiences.



Yeh, Steve Morris was a tough dude for sure and as you say, something a few other martial artists could learn a few things from!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300172 - 11/17/06 11:09 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well, GM Rhee, Ki Ha is in some shape. He is in much better shape than me. He is also a Grandfather & at least 70 years of age. He can still do those awesome push ups.

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#300173 - 11/20/06 10:53 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk. Some of it gets a bit silly at times. Like suggesting he had better hands than Mohammed Ali. Or the person who once suggested Rhee could depacitate someone with his bare hands. He was powerful but not that powerful LOL. It's funny how these fairy stories grow.<<<<

All I can say is that MasL must be one big dude if he says GM Rhee Ki Ha is not stocky. He may not be large overall like some NFL lineman but he is thick with hands like catcher's mits. Master Walt Lang told me of seeing him do a demo where GM Rhee held 4 boards in one hand, tossed them in the air and with the same hand did a backfist breaking them in mid air. Would that decapitate some one? Probably not. Would the results be sufficient? I think so!

Anyway, with regard to the 1 technique for victory / 1 strike one kill theory, there is some thought that poetic license was taken with the translation from Okinawa/ Japan. Perhaps a better translation is 1 opportunity for victory>

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#300174 - 11/20/06 01:42 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

>>>Well I don't believe that to be true at all. While I accept Rhee is powerful so are a lot of other people. He wasn't that stocky tbh. As for the one blow one kill stuff. Well I think thats just so much of the mythology you are trying to debunk. Some of it gets a bit silly at times. Like suggesting he had better hands than Mohammed Ali. Or the person who once suggested Rhee could depacitate someone with his bare hands. He was powerful but not that powerful LOL. It's funny how these fairy stories grow.<<<<

All I can say is that MasL must be one big dude if he says GM Rhee Ki Ha is not stocky. He may not be large overall like some NFL lineman but he is thick with hands like catcher's mits. Master Walt Lang told me of seeing him do a demo where GM Rhee held 4 boards in one hand, tossed them in the air and with the same hand did a backfist breaking them in mid air. Would that decapitate some one? Probably not. Would the results be sufficient? I think so!

Anyway, with regard to the 1 technique for victory / 1 strike one kill theory, there is some thought that poetic license was taken with the translation from Okinawa/ Japan. Perhaps a better translation is 1 opportunity for victory>




LOl some people would argue with an empty house. I said he wasn't THAT stocky. Do we really need to debate that?

As for the story, or fisherman's tale you put forward: I take it they were American boards?

Do you know what decapitate means? It doesn't mean "to give one a black eye". It doesn't mean "to break one's nose". It means to separate the head from the body.

So, I think you were almost there when you said "probably not"

MasL

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#300175 - 11/20/06 03:37 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>LOl some people would argue with an empty house. I said he wasn't THAT stocky. Do we really need to debate that? <<<

Not if I am arguing with an empty house.


>>>>As for the story, or fisherman's tale you put forward: I take it they were American boards?<<<<

I do not know their nationality. However it was during a time when the crappola boards we see today was not really know to exist. If I get a chance I will get more info.

>>>Do you know what decapitate means? It doesn't mean "to give one a black eye". It doesn't mean "to break one's nose". It means to separate the head from the body. <<<

Yes I know what it means . I had never heard the term used to describe what he could do until you told the story so I was simply acknowledging your right to some poetic license.

As for fisherman's tale, heck, told a guy while fishing I caught a 4 foot 48 pound Walleye. He told me he pulled up a 50 year old lantern from a wreck and it was still lit! I told him I would knock 20 pounds and a foot off the walley if he would say the lantern wasn't lit.

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#300176 - 11/20/06 04:07 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

I began training TKD in the mid-70s. My first instructors were first generation students of Rhee Ki Ha who graded us. Rhee was often quoted in the ITF as being the “best ever student” by Choi Hong Hi, ITF Founder. The training we received was old style Korean training.

After a period of time I began to do my own research. Looking a various texts, including the 1972 manual and books such as TKD by BS Huan I noticed that TKD supposedly contained basic Judo throws, trips and grappling that appeared to derive from Hapkido. These were not taught as part of the curriculum. ItfUnity has suggested this is the fault of the instructors. This is quite wrong. This is a leadership issue. The people at the top were at fault. This is clearly due to one thing and one thing only. If you have someone who is deliberately omitting part of the syllabus it is down to incompetence.

I also started my own research into TKD history and martial art history in general. Since TKD was supposedly derived from both Shorin and Shorei Okinawan karate it was clear or me that in some part it was related to styles such a Goju and Uechi Ryu. Through looking at various magazines and seeing articles on people such as Morio Higoanna it was apparent that these styles place a large emphasis on grappling, throws, locks, etc. Of course the reference for these moves were the kata. Rather than learn whole chunks of goju kata I instead looked for common ground in particular sequences or combinations. However it was clear that there was no room for any such training in the ITF instruction I was receiving.

What is taught in the ITF is what in karate would be called a basic type of bunkai. Almost a schoolboy type of training that if your tried it in reality would maybe get you seriously injured. This is usually done through one step sparring although there is no clear linkage to the patterns and it is usually up to the student to make this connection.

As for the more interesting stuff I encountered by attending for example seminars by leading authorities on Oyo it definitely it had no place in TKD. I can remember when there was a surge in interest in this type of training about 15 years ago. There was a magazine report on a Choi Hong Hi seminar in Australasia. The reporter had questioned Choi about the patterns at the seminar and received the usual explanations on the applications. When he suggested there may be more in depth explanations apparently Choi became quite flustered and stated they were his patterns and he knew what the explanation was. He simply wasn’t interested in any other viewpoint on the issue. And very few people I met in TKD ever were.

The point I am making is that this information has always been out there. But it has NEVER been part of ITF training in any way, shape or form. To suggest that this type of training is what Choi Hong Hi and the other leaders wanted or appreciated is quite wrong and indeed misleading.




I agree with this post 100%.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300177 - 11/20/06 10:01 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

MasL>>>>As for the story, or fisherman's tale you put forward: I take it they were American boards?<<<<




Well heres a picture of Master Park, June Tae doing 6 in the same fashion (though with a punch rather than a back fist)!



The text underneath it reads "Throwing 6 boards in the air and hitting the target with a front fist snap punch"
- seems it may not be such a fishy tale after all!


Edited by StuartA (11/20/06 10:05 PM)

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#300178 - 11/20/06 10:36 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Any idea where that picture was taken?

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#300179 - 11/22/06 02:54 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
wilcy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 2
A long time lurker and first time poster. And this is my short anthology of TKD, which might clear up some of the misconceptions about TKD, especially by the proponent of the MMA who claims TKD is irrelevant.

I grew up in Hawaii in the early 1970s, taking TKD from a Korean "traditional" instructor who also taught TKD in the Korean ROK army before he immigrated to the U.S. He was also a ROK, Vietnam vet. As a teen, I took TKD lesson every day, Monday to Friday, after school from 5 to 8 pm. On Saturday, the class would go from 10:00 am to 1 pm. I believe it cost my parents $10 per month for me to take TKD. It took me about 5 years to earn my first degree black belt; since then I moved to the "mainland," joined the Army, college, and career, and haven't had time to take any MAs.

Speaking from my experience during the early 70s, the TKD I was taught had a quite a few hand strikes, both open and close. We were taught to strike opponent's vulnerable parts, including strikes to the throat, groin, eyes, underarm, etc. Despite learning these hand tachics, we were always warned to never use them except for self-defence, only in dire situations. The instructor also taught some form of joint-manipulation and sweeps common in Hapkido. Moreover, low kicks below the waist were taught along side the popular, fancy high and spinning kicks. The low kicks consisted of kicks to the mid-section, waist, and to the thigh area. In a street fight, however, low kicks can be utilize to the ankle in an attempt to trip the attacker and then to finish him off. As the OP stated, there were no weapons training of any sorts, though on our own we would play around with the home-made numchucks.

As far as strengthening our fists and open hands for handstrikes, we would practice punching/chopping eye=level, propped up 2 X 4 wrapped with a rope. This was to develop callous on your knuckles etc. Followed by heavy-duty punching bag you would see a boxing gym. Any sort of mistakes or misbehavior would be punishable by bare-knuckle push ups which further strengthen our fists and wrists.

We also had two types of sparring, non-contact sparring (basically going through the motion) and full-contact sparring. The full-contact was also divided into two types; one without any safety helmut/pads/etc and one with. Typically during sparring, usually three or four black belts would line up on the one side and the red and other lower belts would line up on the other side, facing each other. The full contact sparring would last about 5 to 10 minutes. Then, the lower belt would rotate to the next black belt and spar him for the next 5 mintutes. Any time when an opponent is knocked to the ground, we were told to be "gentlemen" and restart from the stand up position. The helmut and pads were used for pre-tournament fights; so we can get used to them. After years of training, my friends and I were pretty good at fighting; all of us at high school grade level hanging around for protection.

Once in a while, the city of Honolulu would host "Karate" tournaments. At our school, we would have our own tournament to pick the best fighters for each age/belt level to represent the TKD school. Tournament would have other TKD schools from Hawaii, as well as Japanese style Karate schools and Kung Fu schools.

I don't know if any of you been to Hawaii, but the inner-city of Honolulu is a rough and tough place to grow up, especially if you are a Haole. Contrary to the popular notion of the Brazilian JJ, originally espoused by Rorian and Royce Gracie of the early UFC, in a street fight, the last place you want to end up is on the ground; you would end up being stomped to death like a squashed watermelon by someone who actually know how to stomp and kick. Personally, the TKD I learned, helped me survive my youth in Hawaii; "stick and move, stick and move, watch your sides and back, knock him down and go for the kill (not literally)."

As youth growing up in Hawaii in the early 1970s, one of our favorite past-time was going to a movie theater to watch the Bruce Lee movies. I don't know if you guys noticed, all the kicks he used in his movies look like TKD kicks. Since I was very familiar with school mates who took Kung-Fu, I can somewhat confidently say that Bruce Lee did not use Kung-Fu/Wushu kicks in his movies. One night as I browsing the internet, I came across several pics of Bruce Lee and a TKD intructor practicing sparring together. Could Bruce Lee have gotten some ideas from this TKD instructor?

Since I'm now a middle-age man who haven't practice TKD in some twenty-years, it's hard for me to recognize what a Tae Know Do is? Some of the videos uploaded unto this site are pretty laughable. The TKD matches during the last Olympic were pretty entertaining. However, one doesn't have to ever taken TKD to realize that, as one poster poignantly stated that it has become a martial "sports."

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#300180 - 11/22/06 03:10 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
wilcy Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 2
Lastly, before I go into my TKD slomber for the next twenty years,

we were always taught to have our hands up, not necessarily like the boxers, however, at least up near faces/upper body so as to block kicks and punches to the face. Moreover, the hands have to be in fists because one can sprain fingers when blocking a powerful kicks with open hand.

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#300181 - 11/22/06 07:11 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Quote:

MasL>>>>As for the story, or fisherman's tale you put forward: I take it they were American boards?<<<<




Well heres a picture of Master Park, June Tae doing 6 in the same fashion (though with a punch rather than a back fist)!



The text underneath it reads "Throwing 6 boards in the air and hitting the target with a front fist snap punch"
- seems it may not be such a fishy tale after all!




Ok. You posted this pic. So let's play around with it a bit. What does this pic say to YOU. What does it convey?

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#300182 - 11/22/06 09:09 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Ok. You posted this pic. So let's play around with it a bit. What does this pic say to YOU. What does it convey?



It tells me simply that the story of GM Rhee breaking 4 boards in an air break is possibly not such a "fishermans tale" as you suggested it was - nothing more, nothing less!

What does it convey to me? - IMO, One of TKD's finest masters!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300183 - 11/22/06 09:10 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Any idea where that picture was taken?




Nope, sorry.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300184 - 11/22/06 09:14 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: wilcy]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Nice posts and confirms a lot from the article as it goes to show evryones experiences have been different and not everyone back then covered everything that was involved in TKD training leading to misconceptions that certain things arn't part of TKD, when in fact they are & always were. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Stuart

wilcy:
Quote:

I grew up in Hawaii in the early 1970s, taking TKD from a Korean "traditional" instructor who also taught TKD in the Korean ROK army before he immigrated to the U.S. He was also a ROK, Vietnam vet....


_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300185 - 11/22/06 09:35 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: wilcy]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Wilcy, welcome to the forum.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#300186 - 11/23/06 12:36 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Dereck]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I love hearing about the old school ways.Seems like real original TKD how it should be.
More more haha.
Sometimes my instructor surprises us with a real old school style lesson and the ones who have trained ages always say it still doesnt compare, as us younger lot sit destroyed and aching at the end.lol.Then I sit and listen to storys of how easy we have it.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#300187 - 11/23/06 09:38 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
I find it incredible that people would level the criticism at General Choi that he did not know all the pattern move applicstions. Not because he did, but I submit that no one did. Various motions are subject to any number of applications. Now, if you modify them a little they are subject to many more. Even some of todays "Real Application" Gurus such as Dilman and Vince Morris will take the same move and show different "Real Applications."

To the credit of some, they readily admit (Rick Clark being one) that there is no way of knowing the "Real" or "Original' application. He simply explains that what he suggests works and makes sense. What general Choi also states makes sense. Just as no one person or country can claim invention of the wheel or discovery of fire, no such claim can be made for Martial Art techniques. Further, as Gneral Choi stated at several instructor courses, if someone indicates that the application for a technique is different then what you thinkm it is ask them to demonstrate the application. If it makes sense, it is a good application irrespective of what the book says.

as an added item, what I percieve to be the bottom line as related in a seminar with Vince Morris is overlooked. Applications will not make crummy technique good. They will make good technique better. Learning a basic application will teach you to move powerfuly and efficiently, as well as in a well balanced manner. Then how you apply the motion is limited only by your imagination and practical considerations. Remember, General Choi classified first Degree Black Belt as "Novice". It is therefore logical that the applications learned are novice applications with variations available.

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#300188 - 11/23/06 09:43 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>Ok. You posted this pic. So let's play around with it a bit. What does this pic say to YOU. What does it convey? <<<

The photo alone would not convey much. Coupled with the opinions of those I know and respect about the abilities of Park Jung Tae, it is an example of what a phenominal Martial artist can do. I have seen GM Sereff on several occasions do a "table Top " break where 6 boards are standing on their edge on top of another board. A prson simply keeps their fingertips on them to keep the boards from falling over. GM Sereff does an inward Knifehand strike and splits the baords with the effect that pieces of lumber seem to be flying everywhere.

And yes MasL they are "American Boards".

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#300189 - 11/23/06 10:30 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Master Weiss:
Did you not have the opportunity to train with (G)Master Park, Jung Tae?

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#300190 - 11/24/06 02:07 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300191 - 11/24/06 08:02 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

I find it incredible that people would level the criticism at General Choi that he did not know all the pattern move applicstions. Not because he did, but I submit that no one did. Various motions are subject to any number of applications. Now, if you modify them a little they are subject to many more. Even some of todays "Real Application" Gurus such as Dilman and Vince Morris will take the same move and show different "Real Applications."

To the credit of some, they readily admit (Rick Clark being one) that there is no way of knowing the "Real" or "Original' application. He simply explains that what he suggests works and makes sense. What general Choi also states makes sense. Just as no one person or country can claim invention of the wheel or discovery of fire, no such claim can be made for Martial Art techniques. Further, as Gneral Choi stated at several instructor courses, if someone indicates that the application for a technique is different then what you thinkm it is ask them to demonstrate the application. If it makes sense, it is a good application irrespective of what the book says.

as an added item, what I percieve to be the bottom line as related in a seminar with Vince Morris is overlooked. Applications will not make crummy technique good. They will make good technique better. Learning a basic application will teach you to move powerfuly and efficiently, as well as in a well balanced manner. Then how you apply the motion is limited only by your imagination and practical considerations. Remember, General Choi classified first Degree Black Belt as "Novice". It is therefore logical that the applications learned are novice applications with variations available.




"I find it incredible that people would level the criticism at General Choi"

This is a view shared by many in the ITF

So basically what you're saying is everything is alright and there's no need to worry.

Thanks I feel a lot better now.

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#300192 - 11/24/06 08:14 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

>>Ok. You posted this pic. So let's play around with it a bit. What does this pic say to YOU. What does it convey? <<<

The photo alone would not convey much. Coupled with the opinions of those I know and respect about the abilities of Park Jung Tae, it is an example of what a phenominal Martial artist can do. I have seen GM Sereff on several occasions do a "table Top " break where 6 boards are standing on their edge on top of another board. A prson simply keeps their fingertips on them to keep the boards from falling over. GM Sereff does an inward Knifehand strike and splits the baords with the effect that pieces of lumber seem to be flying everywhere.

And yes MasL they are "American Boards".




Exactly!!! Now we're getting somewhere (at last). The picture determines nothing.

But then in the next sentence you turn it all a around? So now its shows greatness personified?

Let's cut to the quick. All this talk about "boards" is simply ludicrous. It is a nonsensical statement. Five boards, six boards and so it goes on. Think of a number, any number will do.

As for the "American boards" quip; It's a serious point. I can remember at itf-information. There was all this talk from some of my Ammerican friends about how many "boards" so and so broke, or their student broke. Some five year old kid broke five boards etc, etc.

I was like... "Wow these guys must be the master race".

Then it was explained to me by an ITF member from Australia (who obviously had some knowledge of the subject) that the boards that the ITF use in America were considerably weaker than those used eg in Europe.

So then it all made sense. Finally

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#300193 - 11/24/06 09:03 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.




It goes futher than hero worship. Hero worship is eg something a football fan may have for their favourite players.

What some (at least) have in the ITF (and indeed outside it) is a subserviant, unquestioning, adoration of some individuals. These people are in a cult. They don't realise it but they are.

You hear them saying things like:

"Gen Choi wished to use TKD to reunite North and South Korea." It's ridiculous to suggest a past-time such as TKD could solve one of the world's major political problems. Yet these people will repeat it at the drop of a hat.

There are many more examples of this kind of behaviour. They will never question anything. And if they appear to be be doing so then it's just a smokescreen to put forward more praise and keep the myths burning.

I always find it amusing how so many westerners try to turn some of these people into supermen. I'm not saying they aren't good. But you have to have a sense of perspective. When I hear talk of indiduals being able to decapitate people with their bare hands then it's time to draw a line under such nonsense.

There might be impressionalble children reading such things.




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#300194 - 11/24/06 09:13 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>Then it was explained to me by an ITF member from Australia (who obviously had some knowledge of the subject) that the boards that the ITF use in America were considerably weaker than those used eg in Europe.

So then it all made sense. Finally <<<

Absolutely, what makes sense is you hear something from someone and choose to believe it. Then you take it as undeniable fact. For instance the term "American boards" is fallacious. Why, geographicaly the country is large and what you get in Florida is differnt then what you get in Chicago, which is differnt from Colorado, and then the hardness various with temp and humidity. How do I know? I have tested in Florida, Chicago, and Colorado. In Florida I chose 6 boards for a break and was told by the head examiner that southern yellow pine was really tough so I went to 5. Glad I did, because I broke on the first try. Other larger more talented people who would normaly break 6 or seven were cranking those things so har that the building shook.

So Mr. L, continue believing those little anecdotal stories you hear .

By the way, if you think it is a fair criticism of General Choi to say he did not know all the pattern applications, please cite for us any Martial Art figure who does or did know them all and their published works explaining their system.

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#300195 - 11/24/06 11:00 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.





Well 1st of all, Chang Hon ITF Taekwon-Do is a SD Art form. In other words it is not only for SD. Therfore, it is accepted by most who truly understand the system, that not all that we do is practicle for SD. I find no problem with that. In fact, I have spent my entire adult lifetime, studying this Art. It has given me so much more than SD. That being said, there are of course many more activities dedciated solely or mostly to SD, like combat arts & MMAs. It really depends on what one seeks. However, they should have a correct understanding of what their system entails, so they can decide if it is a proper fit.

I don't know if I would say I hero worship Ambassador Choi. I do of course hold him in very high esteem. I am in awe of what he has created & how he was able to spread it so far & wide. I truly think that this spreading of a very standardized MA is truly without precident. I could be wrong, but no one has every given me an example that is better.

I have always found criticism to be very constructive. However, I am seeing more & more, that the criticism is put forth by those that have never met the man, studied under him or fully understand his system.

In fact, he describes the following as cult like. However, he adds that the Art is for development of the whole person, without regard to ones religion, creed, nationality, race or idealogy. The good living suggested by maintaining physical shape & tempered by the moral culture & TKD philosophy, is something that is neutral for all of the categories mentioned above.

Applications is also misunderstood. He put forth 3,200+ fundamental movements & taught that they should be applied to the situation at hand.

As far as the geo=political situation with the north & south, this is also mis-stated. We see that he went there in 1979. He was one of the 1st SKs to ever set foot on the Communsit soil of the north, post Korean War. In 1980, he introduced his style of TKD there. He slowly opened the doors & windows, letting sun in, long before the sunshine policy of the year 2000, that netted the Nobel Peace prize for the SK president Kim, Dae Jung.

It is not that TKD will solve their problems, because it won't. Rather, it is just one area of a vital few, that they share in common, which serves as a vehicle to engage in a dialogue. DIALOGUE is what contributes to peace.

In fact, many have heard of the nuke tests the north did. Well since then, there have been no (zero) (none) (0) (nada) (nyet) official talks between the 2 Koreas. However, last week, the 2 Koreas got together for the 1st time since the nuke test & talked. They did not talk about the nukes or anything like that.

Do you know what they talked about?

Early next week they will talk again!

Do you know about what?

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#300196 - 11/24/06 11:13 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I for one, am a contast critic of his Art & things that he has done. I feel that is healthy & required to grow & fully understand his system. He like all of us had flaws. I don't dwell on the flaws. I take the good that he offered & try to minimize my flaws & repeating his flaws. I think that is important no matter what activity we undertake. I do not get so hung up on the un-informed criticisms, unless they offer some valuable possibilty for betterment. For me, that is what it is all about, being better. So criticism warranted or not, informed or not, allows me an opportunity to gauge & reflect. If it adds to my progress, I would embrace it. Criticism can be a helpful tool, if one seeks the truth.

BTW:

Last week the 2 Koreas met for the 1st time since the nuke test & talked sports. They discussed fielding joint teams at the 2008 Olympics & other future events.

Next week, the ITF-NK & WTF will meet in Beijing to discuss technical intergration & administrative merger.

Certainly these talks will not solve the mutitude of problems that exists between them. To think so, demonstrates IMHO a lack of understanding. It defies logic, IMHO to think that TKD will re-unite the Country. TKD will just help move forward dialogue. The US Dept of State, IMHO agrees. Apparently, so does the ROKorea & the DPRKorea. I think they have more of an inside scoop then we do.

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#300197 - 11/24/06 03:43 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
Saizonic Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.


Edited by Saizonic (11/24/06 03:45 PM)
_________________________
ITF Taekwon-do: 1st Dan Black Belt

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#300198 - 11/24/06 10:57 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Saizonic]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think that some of the reasons are that there are so many TKD schools, that it can't help but get watered down. After a couple of students removed, the myths start to develop. It is compounded by real MA students who join TKD & are not happy with a watered down version, so they leave & seek a more SD based system. They repeat the myths & so on. JMHO

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#300199 - 11/25/06 04:18 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Masl,
I appreciate (and agree) with much of what you're saying. The trouble is that 'facts' often get amplified in the telling until they are a distortion of the reality.

Quote:

It's ridiculous to suggest a past-time such as TKD could solve one of the world's major political problems




Granted, it seems ridiculous, but if we consider that one of the ways enemy nations can get together and meet each other is often through sports it isn't such a ridiculous idea. Perhaps TKD might have been seen as a way of opening a small hole where people could have contact. That's not too bad an idea. The only problem I can see (politics aside) is that SK predominatly practises WTF.

The ITF association with NK has actually made some people believe it is a NK style (as seen on this site).

Quote:

I always find it amusing how so many westerners try to turn some of these people into supermen.




Sorry, my friend, it aint just westerners... where do you think all these stories come from originally?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#300200 - 11/25/06 02:59 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Master Weiss:
Did you not have the opportunity to train with (G)Master Park, Jung Tae? <<<

No, I did not, but from those I know and respect who did have an opportunity to train with him, I am able to form an opinion. When he was close to me in 1987 I believe ding an IIC in St. Lois, we were also hosting a TKD camp whic conflicted with it, but I got the video.

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#300201 - 11/26/06 11:14 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, I have that video. We recently tried to transfer it to DVD, but the quality was so bad, they guy said he couldn't do it.
He was amazing & a really nice guy! IMHO he deserves a lot of credit.

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#300202 - 11/27/06 04:34 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Quote:

I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.





Well 1st of all, Chang Hon ITF Taekwon-Do is a SD Art form. In other words it is not only for SD. Therfore, it is accepted by most who truly understand the system, that not all that we do is practicle for SD. I find no problem with that. In fact, I have spent my entire adult lifetime, studying this Art. It has given me so much more than SD. That being said, there are of course many more activities dedciated solely or mostly to SD, like combat arts & MMAs. It really depends on what one seeks. However, they should have a correct understanding of what their system entails, so they can decide if it is a proper fit.

I don't know if I would say I hero worship Ambassador Choi. I do of course hold him in very high esteem. I am in awe of what he has created & how he was able to spread it so far & wide. I truly think that this spreading of a very standardized MA is truly without precident. I could be wrong, but no one has every given me an example that is better.

I have always found criticism to be very constructive. However, I am seeing more & more, that the criticism is put forth by those that have never met the man, studied under him or fully understand his system.

In fact, he describes the following as cult like. However, he adds that the Art is for development of the whole person, without regard to ones religion, creed, nationality, race or idealogy. The good living suggested by maintaining physical shape & tempered by the moral culture & TKD philosophy, is something that is neutral for all of the categories mentioned above.

Applications is also misunderstood. He put forth 3,200+ fundamental movements & taught that they should be applied to the situation at hand.

As far as the geo=political situation with the north & south, this is also mis-stated. We see that he went there in 1979. He was one of the 1st SKs to ever set foot on the Communsit soil of the north, post Korean War. In 1980, he introduced his style of TKD there. He slowly opened the doors & windows, letting sun in, long before the sunshine policy of the year 2000, that netted the Nobel Peace prize for the SK president Kim, Dae Jung.

It is not that TKD will solve their problems, because it won't. Rather, it is just one area of a vital few, that they share in common, which serves as a vehicle to engage in a dialogue. DIALOGUE is what contributes to peace.

In fact, many have heard of the nuke tests the north did. Well since then, there have been no (zero) (none) (0) (nada) (nyet) official talks between the 2 Koreas. However, last week, the 2 Koreas got together for the 1st time since the nuke test & talked. They did not talk about the nukes or anything like that.

Do you know what they talked about?

Early next week they will talk again!

Do you know about what?




The first lines of your post clearly shows that you have no understanding of what the term "Art" in "Martial Art" means. This really is a fundemental error for someone discussing martial art training. Until you have worked this out there really isn't much point in debating anything. I would would suggest you read Draeger's "Classical Budo: Martial Arts and Ways of Japan". This should give you a better understanding. As it is, what you wrote is completely non-sensical.

Top
#300203 - 11/27/06 04:51 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Saizonic]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.




It's limited because the people at the top taught it that way. Sure there are throws in the syllabus. But no one ever taught them. The ball never got rolling and once people get to a certain rank then ego sets in. Imagine a 4th, 5th or 6th dan trying to teach throws when in reality they are a white belt in judo. It's ridiculous. So all that happens is the status quo is maintained. No one rocks the boat.

But on a practical level other things happen which show true intentions. When I started TKD in the mid 70s you bought your own uniform; a karate gi. As long as it was plain white you could more or less buy whatever brand or quality you wanted. Then TKD Inc realised they could make a lot of money if they monopolised the uniform business. So they bought out their own uniform: A cheap poly/cotton affair with a zip down the front. Cheap and nasty. Made in a Far East sweat shop so certain people could makes loads of money. Even the worst quality karate uniform back then was better than this official dobok.

How long do you think and ITF uniform would last if you started throwing people around? One lesson? Well it may last till the end if you're lucky. When the fashion designers at ITF INC. dreamt up this little autumn number do you think they took into consideration that it may be grabbed, tugged, yanked? No, because its never going to happen. So there you have one example of the mindset right at the very top.

As for the other stuff: what in karate is called Oyo, or close quarter combat for want of a better expression, well like I have already said, when asked about this type of training Choi Hong Hi wasn't interested. He said they were his patterns and HE knew what the applications were.

Now you can try and spin it as much as you like but that IS the bottom line.

FACT!!!!

(for later)

Top
#300204 - 11/27/06 05:16 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: trevek]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Masl,
I appreciate (and agree) with much of what you're saying. The trouble is that 'facts' often get amplified in the telling until they are a distortion of the reality.

Quote:

It's ridiculous to suggest a past-time such as TKD could solve one of the world's major political problems




Granted, it seems ridiculous, but if we consider that one of the ways enemy nations can get together and meet each other is often through sports it isn't such a ridiculous idea. Perhaps TKD might have been seen as a way of opening a small hole where people could have contact. That's not too bad an idea. The only problem I can see (politics aside) is that SK predominatly practises WTF.

The ITF association with NK has actually made some people believe it is a NK style (as seen on this site).

Quote:

I always find it amusing how so many westerners try to turn some of these people into supermen.




Sorry, my friend, it aint just westerners... where do you think all these stories come from originally?




I never said it was just westerners. I find it funny so many in the west seem to WANT to believe some of the fairy stories that are propagated. True it starts in the Far East. But without western validation it wouldn't get very far.

For example, the myth that Ueshiba could produce an invisible force field of chi energy around himself to ward off attack. Complete garabe you might think? Well not to the British aikidoist who while stating it was probably a little far fetched sort of hinted you couldn't entirely rule the story out. In a sort of "there are many things we don't understand" way. And so it goes on.

Look at some of the stuff that's been written about Mas Oyama. Much of it completely untrue. I read somewhere, long ago how it worked. His senior students would state these things: that he lived in the mountains for 18 months, two years, three years, whatever, that he was a dan grade in judo ,etc, etc. He never actually said them. BUT he never denied any of it when it became part of Kyokushin history.

If you want to fight bulls go to Pamploma in Spain on the bull run and fight the monsters they let loose there. See how long you last. Don't pit your strength against clapped out old cattle (with horns) that are so worn out they've just been give a one-way ticket to the slaughterhouse. And don't look the other way while your senior students creep in the cattle shed and weaken the poor animal's horns so that the next day you can smash it with your devestating karate chop and tear it from the poor beast for the cheering crowd to see how strong you are. So that no one can be in doubt of your GOD HAND

The mythology of a man who those around him claimed HAD to fight buls because he couldn't find any human adversaries willing to fight him. Complete rubbish. There is always SOMEONE ready to fight you no matter who you are or what your reputation is.

And so it goes on.


Edited by MasL (11/27/06 05:22 AM)

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#300205 - 11/27/06 05:20 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

>>>Master Weiss:
Did you not have the opportunity to train with (G)Master Park, Jung Tae? <<<

No, I did not, but from those I know and respect who did have an opportunity to train with him, I am able to form an opinion. When he was close to me in 1987 I believe ding an IIC in St. Lois, we were also hosting a TKD camp whic conflicted with it, but I got the video.




So you're talking about someone you've never actually seen, but its ok? Yet when I talk about someone I HAVE seen up close (at different times over three decades) you question what I write?

Strange world we live in.

Top
#300206 - 11/27/06 10:07 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well I truly do not understand your posts. My understanding of what an Art is, is exactly that, mine. I adhere to the notion that Ambassador Choi put forth. That is, that his Chang Hon style of Taekwon-Do was more than SD. In fact, he stated & wrote that the physical was secondary to the goal of overall self improvement.

I do respectfully feel that your replies are often unwarranted attacks on the information I put forth. I often agree with you & have often highlighted some of the many faults that Ambassador Choi had, as he, like all of us, are only human. I do not recall you giving him any credit at all. That just implies to me, an agenda, that does not entirely seek the truth. I don't know why this appears this way & I apologize in advance, if I am off target.

So when you say I don't understand what the Art in MA is, well I don't think my definition would fit yours or the one that you referred me to. However, you apparently keep missing what I repeat over & over - that is, that I am speaking from the standpoint of the ITF Chang Hon, as that is all I feel somewhat qualified to comment on. As I previoulsy posted, I have little understanding of the many other Arts out there. Therefore, I am unqualified to comment on them. I have worked hard in an attempt to try & master 1 Art, & I am still trying to do that, feeling that I am not there yet, despite my 30+ years of study. However, I have no interest in being a jack of all trades, as I seek to master just ONE. I stick to what I have studied & try to remain open to learn more. However, I can honestly say, that you offer me little if any new worthwhile information. But again, I do remain open, or try to be, as seeking information is my priority.

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#300207 - 11/27/06 10:32 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.



It's limited because the people at the top taught it that way. Sure there are throws in the syllabus. But no one ever taught them. The ball never got rolling and once people get to a certain rank then ego sets in. Imagine a 4th, 5th or 6th dan trying to teach throws when in reality they are a white belt in judo. It's ridiculous. So all that happens is the status quo is maintained. No one rocks the boat.
But on a practical level other things happen which show true intentions. When I started TKD in the mid 70s you bought your own uniform; a karate gi. As long as it was plain white you could more or less buy whatever brand or quality you wanted. Then TKD Inc realised they could make a lot of money if they monopolised the uniform business. So they bought out their own uniform: A cheap poly/cotton affair with a zip down the front. Cheap and nasty. Made in a Far East sweat shop so certain people could makes loads of money. Even the worst quality karate uniform back then was better than this official dobok.
How long do you think and ITF uniform would last if you started throwing people around? One lesson? Well it may last till the end if you're lucky. When the fashion designers at ITF INC. dreamt up this little autumn number do you think they took into consideration that it may be grabbed, tugged, yanked? No, because its never going to happen. So there you have one example of the mindset right at the very top.
As for the other stuff: what in karate is called Oyo, or close quarter combat for want of a better expression, well like I have already said, when asked about this type of training Choi Hong Hi wasn't interested. He said they were his patterns and HE knew what the applications were.
Now you can try and spin it as much as you like but that IS the bottom line.
FACT!!!!
(for later)




Well, we have been doing throws from day 1, so I guess there goes your blanket statement of ALL. We have also done them with the older Karate Gis, as well as the newer ITF TKD Doboks. We also have done it in street clothes. We try to follow the instructions of the Founder, as outlined in his syllabus, that is practice with realism. It is sad that many do not follow the syllabus. Again, fault of the instructor, not the system.

It is also the result of a new global economy, that manufacturers seek lower costs all the time. It is not limited to MA practice suits. I don't wish to go into a economical debate on the benefits of capatalism, but it is hoped that the introduction of manufacturing will raise the standard of living. There is ample evidence that it has in some cases. Be that as it may, we can only buy. The ITF has NEVER sold DoBoks or any equipment. They didn't even trademark their logos & patches. They are trying to do that now. They have missed out on 40 years of a money making opportunity. Also, I think that ITF-V & ITF-NK now have official DoBoks. However, I think thas is more of a result of the numerous lawsuits over trademark rights.

Again, with reference to the applications of the patterns. He did after all create & oversee the creation of 25 Tuls. He placed in applications as he saw fit. That may be too basic for some. There may have been additional, alternative, original applications that he may or may not have know. There appears to be evidence, he didn't know them. However, there is also indication that many of his early top instructors may have had more of a grasp on them. However, remember, he incorporated them into his Chang Hon way, as he saw fit. Many may find fault with that & that is okay. Applications of patterns (or Kata/forms) have never been applied exactly the same way in real life.
Applications of patterns & of real life SD are rarely the same. In Chang Hon, that is clear to me, from his teachings. Again, a student must learn, develop & train in as many of the 3,200+ fundamental movements as possible. Then they must apply that as each individual situation warrants. Another IMHO, of a mis-understanding of a lack of knowledge of his syllabus. This by the way is also not limited to non-ITF students.

Top
#300208 - 11/27/06 10:43 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Edward

Please do not misconstrue anything I write as a attack. As a regular contributor at Itf-Online you should know that I rarely write anything in aggressive tone. I may be a little abrupt at times but I'm really just trying to help.

This is only an internet forum. You know my name, I don't know yours. Therefore I am at a disadvantage.

Look what happened at Online.. despite it all I kept a sense of perspective. Many times I would have been within my rights to take legal action against the threats I recieved. Or at least make a formal complaint to the associations that those people belong to. Maybe get their next dan grading cancelled?

As you are aware Edward I am perfectly in my rights to make such a case. But I didn't. I tried to view all that disgusting behaviour with the best light hearted humour I could manage."It's only the internet" I kept telling myself when one after another threat appeared.

So let's keep a sense of perspective.

Actually I've just realised..instead of writing all that I could have just used this:

Top
#300209 - 11/27/06 10:48 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.



It's limited because the people at the top taught it that way. Sure there are throws in the syllabus. But no one ever taught them. The ball never got rolling and once people get to a certain rank then ego sets in. Imagine a 4th, 5th or 6th dan trying to teach throws when in reality they are a white belt in judo. It's ridiculous. So all that happens is the status quo is maintained. No one rocks the boat.
But on a practical level other things happen which show true intentions. When I started TKD in the mid 70s you bought your own uniform; a karate gi. As long as it was plain white you could more or less buy whatever brand or quality you wanted. Then TKD Inc realised they could make a lot of money if they monopolised the uniform business. So they bought out their own uniform: A cheap poly/cotton affair with a zip down the front. Cheap and nasty. Made in a Far East sweat shop so certain people could makes loads of money. Even the worst quality karate uniform back then was better than this official dobok.
How long do you think and ITF uniform would last if you started throwing people around? One lesson? Well it may last till the end if you're lucky. When the fashion designers at ITF INC. dreamt up this little autumn number do you think they took into consideration that it may be grabbed, tugged, yanked? No, because its never going to happen. So there you have one example of the mindset right at the very top.
As for the other stuff: what in karate is called Oyo, or close quarter combat for want of a better expression, well like I have already said, when asked about this type of training Choi Hong Hi wasn't interested. He said they were his patterns and HE knew what the applications were.
Now you can try and spin it as much as you like but that IS the bottom line.
FACT!!!!
(for later)




Well, we have been doing throws from day 1, so I guess there goes your blanket statement of ALL. We have also done them with the older Karate Gis, as well as the newer ITF TKD Doboks. We also have done it in street clothes. We try to follow the instructions of the Founder, as outlined in his syllabus, that is practice with realism. It is sad that many do not follow the syllabus. Again, fault of the instructor, not the system.

It is also the result of a new global economy, that manufacturers seek lower costs all the time. It is not limited to MA practice suits. I don't wish to go into a economical debate on the benefits of capatalism, but it is hoped that the introduction of manufacturing will raise the standard of living. There is ample evidence that it has in some cases. Be that as it may, we can only buy. The ITF has NEVER sold DoBoks or any equipment. They didn't even trademark their logos & patches. They are trying to do that now. They have missed out on 40 years of a money making opportunity. Also, I think that ITF-V & ITF-NK now have official DoBoks. However, I think thas is more of a result of the numerous lawsuits over trademark rights.

Again, with reference to the applications of the patterns. He did after all create & oversee the creation of 25 Tuls. He placed in applications as he saw fit. That may be too basic for some. There may have been additional, alternative, original applications that he may or may not have know. There appears to be evidence, he didn't know them. However, there is also indication that many of his early top instructors may have had more of a grasp on them. However, remember, he incorporated them into his Chang Hon way, as he saw fit. Many may find fault with that & that is okay. Applications of patterns (or Kata/forms) have never been applied exactly the same way in real life.
Applications of patterns & of real life SD are rarely the same. In Chang Hon, that is clear to me, from his teachings. Again, a student must learn, develop & train in as many of the 3,200+ fundamental movements as possible. Then they must apply that as each individual situation warrants. Another IMHO, of a mis-understanding of a lack of knowledge of his syllabus. This by the way is also not limited to non-ITF students.





Top
#300210 - 11/27/06 01:39 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well again I really don't follow what you are saying. However, if I have misconstrued what you have written, again, I am sorry.
It is just that I have never seen you give credit once to anything that Ambassador Choi did, over his lifetime. In this thread I certainly point out some faults, but have never seen you say anything positive. I am sure you can find something good to say. It just led me to believe that since you had nothing good to say, you either didn't know him or have an agenda. So again, I am sorry. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but not your own set of facts. Is there not something good he did?

Top
#300211 - 11/27/06 03:22 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Guys, please.... could we stop quoting whole comments and whole comments with their replies and whole comments withtheirrepliesandtherepliesto those comments?

Please guys, huh... pretty please with not fattening sugar on them?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#300212 - 11/27/06 03:28 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: trevek]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Guys, please.... could we stop quoting whole comments and whole comments with their replies and whole comments withtheirrepliesandtherepliesto those comments?

Please guys, huh... pretty please with not fattening sugar on them?




Sure

Top
#300213 - 11/27/06 03:29 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Quote:

Guys, please.... could we stop quoting whole comments and whole comments with their replies and whole comments withtheirrepliesandtherepliesto those comments?

Please guys, huh... pretty please with not fattening sugar on them?




Sure




Did you mean saccharine?

Top
#300214 - 11/27/06 03:32 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Guys, please.... could we stop quoting whole comments and whole comments with their replies and whole comments withtheirrepliesandtherepliesto those comments?

Please guys, huh... pretty please with not fattening sugar on them?




Sure




Did you mean saccharine?





Top
#300215 - 11/27/06 03:57 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Supremor]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
...or nutrasweet
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#300216 - 11/27/06 11:27 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Mas L >>>>So you're talking about someone you've never actually seen, but its ok? Yet when I talk about someone I HAVE seen up close (at different times over three decades) you question what I write?

Strange world we live in. <<<<

What or whom are you referring to?

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