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#300200 - 11/25/06 02:59 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Master Weiss:
Did you not have the opportunity to train with (G)Master Park, Jung Tae? <<<

No, I did not, but from those I know and respect who did have an opportunity to train with him, I am able to form an opinion. When he was close to me in 1987 I believe ding an IIC in St. Lois, we were also hosting a TKD camp whic conflicted with it, but I got the video.

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#300201 - 11/26/06 11:14 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, I have that video. We recently tried to transfer it to DVD, but the quality was so bad, they guy said he couldn't do it.
He was amazing & a really nice guy! IMHO he deserves a lot of credit.

Top
#300202 - 11/27/06 04:34 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Quote:

I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.





Well 1st of all, Chang Hon ITF Taekwon-Do is a SD Art form. In other words it is not only for SD. Therfore, it is accepted by most who truly understand the system, that not all that we do is practicle for SD. I find no problem with that. In fact, I have spent my entire adult lifetime, studying this Art. It has given me so much more than SD. That being said, there are of course many more activities dedciated solely or mostly to SD, like combat arts & MMAs. It really depends on what one seeks. However, they should have a correct understanding of what their system entails, so they can decide if it is a proper fit.

I don't know if I would say I hero worship Ambassador Choi. I do of course hold him in very high esteem. I am in awe of what he has created & how he was able to spread it so far & wide. I truly think that this spreading of a very standardized MA is truly without precident. I could be wrong, but no one has every given me an example that is better.

I have always found criticism to be very constructive. However, I am seeing more & more, that the criticism is put forth by those that have never met the man, studied under him or fully understand his system.

In fact, he describes the following as cult like. However, he adds that the Art is for development of the whole person, without regard to ones religion, creed, nationality, race or idealogy. The good living suggested by maintaining physical shape & tempered by the moral culture & TKD philosophy, is something that is neutral for all of the categories mentioned above.

Applications is also misunderstood. He put forth 3,200+ fundamental movements & taught that they should be applied to the situation at hand.

As far as the geo=political situation with the north & south, this is also mis-stated. We see that he went there in 1979. He was one of the 1st SKs to ever set foot on the Communsit soil of the north, post Korean War. In 1980, he introduced his style of TKD there. He slowly opened the doors & windows, letting sun in, long before the sunshine policy of the year 2000, that netted the Nobel Peace prize for the SK president Kim, Dae Jung.

It is not that TKD will solve their problems, because it won't. Rather, it is just one area of a vital few, that they share in common, which serves as a vehicle to engage in a dialogue. DIALOGUE is what contributes to peace.

In fact, many have heard of the nuke tests the north did. Well since then, there have been no (zero) (none) (0) (nada) (nyet) official talks between the 2 Koreas. However, last week, the 2 Koreas got together for the 1st time since the nuke test & talked. They did not talk about the nukes or anything like that.

Do you know what they talked about?

Early next week they will talk again!

Do you know about what?




The first lines of your post clearly shows that you have no understanding of what the term "Art" in "Martial Art" means. This really is a fundemental error for someone discussing martial art training. Until you have worked this out there really isn't much point in debating anything. I would would suggest you read Draeger's "Classical Budo: Martial Arts and Ways of Japan". This should give you a better understanding. As it is, what you wrote is completely non-sensical.

Top
#300203 - 11/27/06 04:51 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Saizonic]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.




It's limited because the people at the top taught it that way. Sure there are throws in the syllabus. But no one ever taught them. The ball never got rolling and once people get to a certain rank then ego sets in. Imagine a 4th, 5th or 6th dan trying to teach throws when in reality they are a white belt in judo. It's ridiculous. So all that happens is the status quo is maintained. No one rocks the boat.

But on a practical level other things happen which show true intentions. When I started TKD in the mid 70s you bought your own uniform; a karate gi. As long as it was plain white you could more or less buy whatever brand or quality you wanted. Then TKD Inc realised they could make a lot of money if they monopolised the uniform business. So they bought out their own uniform: A cheap poly/cotton affair with a zip down the front. Cheap and nasty. Made in a Far East sweat shop so certain people could makes loads of money. Even the worst quality karate uniform back then was better than this official dobok.

How long do you think and ITF uniform would last if you started throwing people around? One lesson? Well it may last till the end if you're lucky. When the fashion designers at ITF INC. dreamt up this little autumn number do you think they took into consideration that it may be grabbed, tugged, yanked? No, because its never going to happen. So there you have one example of the mindset right at the very top.

As for the other stuff: what in karate is called Oyo, or close quarter combat for want of a better expression, well like I have already said, when asked about this type of training Choi Hong Hi wasn't interested. He said they were his patterns and HE knew what the applications were.

Now you can try and spin it as much as you like but that IS the bottom line.

FACT!!!!

(for later)

Top
#300204 - 11/27/06 05:16 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: trevek]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Masl,
I appreciate (and agree) with much of what you're saying. The trouble is that 'facts' often get amplified in the telling until they are a distortion of the reality.

Quote:

It's ridiculous to suggest a past-time such as TKD could solve one of the world's major political problems




Granted, it seems ridiculous, but if we consider that one of the ways enemy nations can get together and meet each other is often through sports it isn't such a ridiculous idea. Perhaps TKD might have been seen as a way of opening a small hole where people could have contact. That's not too bad an idea. The only problem I can see (politics aside) is that SK predominatly practises WTF.

The ITF association with NK has actually made some people believe it is a NK style (as seen on this site).

Quote:

I always find it amusing how so many westerners try to turn some of these people into supermen.




Sorry, my friend, it aint just westerners... where do you think all these stories come from originally?




I never said it was just westerners. I find it funny so many in the west seem to WANT to believe some of the fairy stories that are propagated. True it starts in the Far East. But without western validation it wouldn't get very far.

For example, the myth that Ueshiba could produce an invisible force field of chi energy around himself to ward off attack. Complete garabe you might think? Well not to the British aikidoist who while stating it was probably a little far fetched sort of hinted you couldn't entirely rule the story out. In a sort of "there are many things we don't understand" way. And so it goes on.

Look at some of the stuff that's been written about Mas Oyama. Much of it completely untrue. I read somewhere, long ago how it worked. His senior students would state these things: that he lived in the mountains for 18 months, two years, three years, whatever, that he was a dan grade in judo ,etc, etc. He never actually said them. BUT he never denied any of it when it became part of Kyokushin history.

If you want to fight bulls go to Pamploma in Spain on the bull run and fight the monsters they let loose there. See how long you last. Don't pit your strength against clapped out old cattle (with horns) that are so worn out they've just been give a one-way ticket to the slaughterhouse. And don't look the other way while your senior students creep in the cattle shed and weaken the poor animal's horns so that the next day you can smash it with your devestating karate chop and tear it from the poor beast for the cheering crowd to see how strong you are. So that no one can be in doubt of your GOD HAND

The mythology of a man who those around him claimed HAD to fight buls because he couldn't find any human adversaries willing to fight him. Complete rubbish. There is always SOMEONE ready to fight you no matter who you are or what your reputation is.

And so it goes on.


Edited by MasL (11/27/06 05:22 AM)

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#300205 - 11/27/06 05:20 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

>>>Master Weiss:
Did you not have the opportunity to train with (G)Master Park, Jung Tae? <<<

No, I did not, but from those I know and respect who did have an opportunity to train with him, I am able to form an opinion. When he was close to me in 1987 I believe ding an IIC in St. Lois, we were also hosting a TKD camp whic conflicted with it, but I got the video.




So you're talking about someone you've never actually seen, but its ok? Yet when I talk about someone I HAVE seen up close (at different times over three decades) you question what I write?

Strange world we live in.

Top
#300206 - 11/27/06 10:07 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well I truly do not understand your posts. My understanding of what an Art is, is exactly that, mine. I adhere to the notion that Ambassador Choi put forth. That is, that his Chang Hon style of Taekwon-Do was more than SD. In fact, he stated & wrote that the physical was secondary to the goal of overall self improvement.

I do respectfully feel that your replies are often unwarranted attacks on the information I put forth. I often agree with you & have often highlighted some of the many faults that Ambassador Choi had, as he, like all of us, are only human. I do not recall you giving him any credit at all. That just implies to me, an agenda, that does not entirely seek the truth. I don't know why this appears this way & I apologize in advance, if I am off target.

So when you say I don't understand what the Art in MA is, well I don't think my definition would fit yours or the one that you referred me to. However, you apparently keep missing what I repeat over & over - that is, that I am speaking from the standpoint of the ITF Chang Hon, as that is all I feel somewhat qualified to comment on. As I previoulsy posted, I have little understanding of the many other Arts out there. Therefore, I am unqualified to comment on them. I have worked hard in an attempt to try & master 1 Art, & I am still trying to do that, feeling that I am not there yet, despite my 30+ years of study. However, I have no interest in being a jack of all trades, as I seek to master just ONE. I stick to what I have studied & try to remain open to learn more. However, I can honestly say, that you offer me little if any new worthwhile information. But again, I do remain open, or try to be, as seeking information is my priority.

Top
#300207 - 11/27/06 10:32 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.



It's limited because the people at the top taught it that way. Sure there are throws in the syllabus. But no one ever taught them. The ball never got rolling and once people get to a certain rank then ego sets in. Imagine a 4th, 5th or 6th dan trying to teach throws when in reality they are a white belt in judo. It's ridiculous. So all that happens is the status quo is maintained. No one rocks the boat.
But on a practical level other things happen which show true intentions. When I started TKD in the mid 70s you bought your own uniform; a karate gi. As long as it was plain white you could more or less buy whatever brand or quality you wanted. Then TKD Inc realised they could make a lot of money if they monopolised the uniform business. So they bought out their own uniform: A cheap poly/cotton affair with a zip down the front. Cheap and nasty. Made in a Far East sweat shop so certain people could makes loads of money. Even the worst quality karate uniform back then was better than this official dobok.
How long do you think and ITF uniform would last if you started throwing people around? One lesson? Well it may last till the end if you're lucky. When the fashion designers at ITF INC. dreamt up this little autumn number do you think they took into consideration that it may be grabbed, tugged, yanked? No, because its never going to happen. So there you have one example of the mindset right at the very top.
As for the other stuff: what in karate is called Oyo, or close quarter combat for want of a better expression, well like I have already said, when asked about this type of training Choi Hong Hi wasn't interested. He said they were his patterns and HE knew what the applications were.
Now you can try and spin it as much as you like but that IS the bottom line.
FACT!!!!
(for later)




Well, we have been doing throws from day 1, so I guess there goes your blanket statement of ALL. We have also done them with the older Karate Gis, as well as the newer ITF TKD Doboks. We also have done it in street clothes. We try to follow the instructions of the Founder, as outlined in his syllabus, that is practice with realism. It is sad that many do not follow the syllabus. Again, fault of the instructor, not the system.

It is also the result of a new global economy, that manufacturers seek lower costs all the time. It is not limited to MA practice suits. I don't wish to go into a economical debate on the benefits of capatalism, but it is hoped that the introduction of manufacturing will raise the standard of living. There is ample evidence that it has in some cases. Be that as it may, we can only buy. The ITF has NEVER sold DoBoks or any equipment. They didn't even trademark their logos & patches. They are trying to do that now. They have missed out on 40 years of a money making opportunity. Also, I think that ITF-V & ITF-NK now have official DoBoks. However, I think thas is more of a result of the numerous lawsuits over trademark rights.

Again, with reference to the applications of the patterns. He did after all create & oversee the creation of 25 Tuls. He placed in applications as he saw fit. That may be too basic for some. There may have been additional, alternative, original applications that he may or may not have know. There appears to be evidence, he didn't know them. However, there is also indication that many of his early top instructors may have had more of a grasp on them. However, remember, he incorporated them into his Chang Hon way, as he saw fit. Many may find fault with that & that is okay. Applications of patterns (or Kata/forms) have never been applied exactly the same way in real life.
Applications of patterns & of real life SD are rarely the same. In Chang Hon, that is clear to me, from his teachings. Again, a student must learn, develop & train in as many of the 3,200+ fundamental movements as possible. Then they must apply that as each individual situation warrants. Another IMHO, of a mis-understanding of a lack of knowledge of his syllabus. This by the way is also not limited to non-ITF students.

Top
#300208 - 11/27/06 10:43 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Edward

Please do not misconstrue anything I write as a attack. As a regular contributor at Itf-Online you should know that I rarely write anything in aggressive tone. I may be a little abrupt at times but I'm really just trying to help.

This is only an internet forum. You know my name, I don't know yours. Therefore I am at a disadvantage.

Look what happened at Online.. despite it all I kept a sense of perspective. Many times I would have been within my rights to take legal action against the threats I recieved. Or at least make a formal complaint to the associations that those people belong to. Maybe get their next dan grading cancelled?

As you are aware Edward I am perfectly in my rights to make such a case. But I didn't. I tried to view all that disgusting behaviour with the best light hearted humour I could manage."It's only the internet" I kept telling myself when one after another threat appeared.

So let's keep a sense of perspective.

Actually I've just realised..instead of writing all that I could have just used this:

Top
#300209 - 11/27/06 10:48 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: ITFunity]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.



It's limited because the people at the top taught it that way. Sure there are throws in the syllabus. But no one ever taught them. The ball never got rolling and once people get to a certain rank then ego sets in. Imagine a 4th, 5th or 6th dan trying to teach throws when in reality they are a white belt in judo. It's ridiculous. So all that happens is the status quo is maintained. No one rocks the boat.
But on a practical level other things happen which show true intentions. When I started TKD in the mid 70s you bought your own uniform; a karate gi. As long as it was plain white you could more or less buy whatever brand or quality you wanted. Then TKD Inc realised they could make a lot of money if they monopolised the uniform business. So they bought out their own uniform: A cheap poly/cotton affair with a zip down the front. Cheap and nasty. Made in a Far East sweat shop so certain people could makes loads of money. Even the worst quality karate uniform back then was better than this official dobok.
How long do you think and ITF uniform would last if you started throwing people around? One lesson? Well it may last till the end if you're lucky. When the fashion designers at ITF INC. dreamt up this little autumn number do you think they took into consideration that it may be grabbed, tugged, yanked? No, because its never going to happen. So there you have one example of the mindset right at the very top.
As for the other stuff: what in karate is called Oyo, or close quarter combat for want of a better expression, well like I have already said, when asked about this type of training Choi Hong Hi wasn't interested. He said they were his patterns and HE knew what the applications were.
Now you can try and spin it as much as you like but that IS the bottom line.
FACT!!!!
(for later)




Well, we have been doing throws from day 1, so I guess there goes your blanket statement of ALL. We have also done them with the older Karate Gis, as well as the newer ITF TKD Doboks. We also have done it in street clothes. We try to follow the instructions of the Founder, as outlined in his syllabus, that is practice with realism. It is sad that many do not follow the syllabus. Again, fault of the instructor, not the system.

It is also the result of a new global economy, that manufacturers seek lower costs all the time. It is not limited to MA practice suits. I don't wish to go into a economical debate on the benefits of capatalism, but it is hoped that the introduction of manufacturing will raise the standard of living. There is ample evidence that it has in some cases. Be that as it may, we can only buy. The ITF has NEVER sold DoBoks or any equipment. They didn't even trademark their logos & patches. They are trying to do that now. They have missed out on 40 years of a money making opportunity. Also, I think that ITF-V & ITF-NK now have official DoBoks. However, I think thas is more of a result of the numerous lawsuits over trademark rights.

Again, with reference to the applications of the patterns. He did after all create & oversee the creation of 25 Tuls. He placed in applications as he saw fit. That may be too basic for some. There may have been additional, alternative, original applications that he may or may not have know. There appears to be evidence, he didn't know them. However, there is also indication that many of his early top instructors may have had more of a grasp on them. However, remember, he incorporated them into his Chang Hon way, as he saw fit. Many may find fault with that & that is okay. Applications of patterns (or Kata/forms) have never been applied exactly the same way in real life.
Applications of patterns & of real life SD are rarely the same. In Chang Hon, that is clear to me, from his teachings. Again, a student must learn, develop & train in as many of the 3,200+ fundamental movements as possible. Then they must apply that as each individual situation warrants. Another IMHO, of a mis-understanding of a lack of knowledge of his syllabus. This by the way is also not limited to non-ITF students.





Top
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