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#300190 - 11/24/06 02:07 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.
_________________________
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#300191 - 11/24/06 08:02 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

I find it incredible that people would level the criticism at General Choi that he did not know all the pattern move applicstions. Not because he did, but I submit that no one did. Various motions are subject to any number of applications. Now, if you modify them a little they are subject to many more. Even some of todays "Real Application" Gurus such as Dilman and Vince Morris will take the same move and show different "Real Applications."

To the credit of some, they readily admit (Rick Clark being one) that there is no way of knowing the "Real" or "Original' application. He simply explains that what he suggests works and makes sense. What general Choi also states makes sense. Just as no one person or country can claim invention of the wheel or discovery of fire, no such claim can be made for Martial Art techniques. Further, as Gneral Choi stated at several instructor courses, if someone indicates that the application for a technique is different then what you thinkm it is ask them to demonstrate the application. If it makes sense, it is a good application irrespective of what the book says.

as an added item, what I percieve to be the bottom line as related in a seminar with Vince Morris is overlooked. Applications will not make crummy technique good. They will make good technique better. Learning a basic application will teach you to move powerfuly and efficiently, as well as in a well balanced manner. Then how you apply the motion is limited only by your imagination and practical considerations. Remember, General Choi classified first Degree Black Belt as "Novice". It is therefore logical that the applications learned are novice applications with variations available.




"I find it incredible that people would level the criticism at General Choi"

This is a view shared by many in the ITF

So basically what you're saying is everything is alright and there's no need to worry.

Thanks I feel a lot better now.

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#300192 - 11/24/06 08:14 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: EarlWeiss]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

>>Ok. You posted this pic. So let's play around with it a bit. What does this pic say to YOU. What does it convey? <<<

The photo alone would not convey much. Coupled with the opinions of those I know and respect about the abilities of Park Jung Tae, it is an example of what a phenominal Martial artist can do. I have seen GM Sereff on several occasions do a "table Top " break where 6 boards are standing on their edge on top of another board. A prson simply keeps their fingertips on them to keep the boards from falling over. GM Sereff does an inward Knifehand strike and splits the baords with the effect that pieces of lumber seem to be flying everywhere.

And yes MasL they are "American Boards".




Exactly!!! Now we're getting somewhere (at last). The picture determines nothing.

But then in the next sentence you turn it all a around? So now its shows greatness personified?

Let's cut to the quick. All this talk about "boards" is simply ludicrous. It is a nonsensical statement. Five boards, six boards and so it goes on. Think of a number, any number will do.

As for the "American boards" quip; It's a serious point. I can remember at itf-information. There was all this talk from some of my Ammerican friends about how many "boards" so and so broke, or their student broke. Some five year old kid broke five boards etc, etc.

I was like... "Wow these guys must be the master race".

Then it was explained to me by an ITF member from Australia (who obviously had some knowledge of the subject) that the boards that the ITF use in America were considerably weaker than those used eg in Europe.

So then it all made sense. Finally

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#300193 - 11/24/06 09:03 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
MasL Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.




It goes futher than hero worship. Hero worship is eg something a football fan may have for their favourite players.

What some (at least) have in the ITF (and indeed outside it) is a subserviant, unquestioning, adoration of some individuals. These people are in a cult. They don't realise it but they are.

You hear them saying things like:

"Gen Choi wished to use TKD to reunite North and South Korea." It's ridiculous to suggest a past-time such as TKD could solve one of the world's major political problems. Yet these people will repeat it at the drop of a hat.

There are many more examples of this kind of behaviour. They will never question anything. And if they appear to be be doing so then it's just a smokescreen to put forward more praise and keep the myths burning.

I always find it amusing how so many westerners try to turn some of these people into supermen. I'm not saying they aren't good. But you have to have a sense of perspective. When I hear talk of indiduals being able to decapitate people with their bare hands then it's time to draw a line under such nonsense.

There might be impressionalble children reading such things.




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#300194 - 11/24/06 09:13 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>Then it was explained to me by an ITF member from Australia (who obviously had some knowledge of the subject) that the boards that the ITF use in America were considerably weaker than those used eg in Europe.

So then it all made sense. Finally <<<

Absolutely, what makes sense is you hear something from someone and choose to believe it. Then you take it as undeniable fact. For instance the term "American boards" is fallacious. Why, geographicaly the country is large and what you get in Florida is differnt then what you get in Chicago, which is differnt from Colorado, and then the hardness various with temp and humidity. How do I know? I have tested in Florida, Chicago, and Colorado. In Florida I chose 6 boards for a break and was told by the head examiner that southern yellow pine was really tough so I went to 5. Glad I did, because I broke on the first try. Other larger more talented people who would normaly break 6 or seven were cranking those things so har that the building shook.

So Mr. L, continue believing those little anecdotal stories you hear .

By the way, if you think it is a fair criticism of General Choi to say he did not know all the pattern applications, please cite for us any Martial Art figure who does or did know them all and their published works explaining their system.

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#300195 - 11/24/06 11:00 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I think to many ITF members hero worship Master Choi, and give him to much credit for creating a "unique" system of self defense and for comming up with a name.

I also question the value of forms training in TKD and other systems of martial arts. The reason I post here is because the poomse, hyungs and tuls were the partterns I practiced. I found forms to be fixed and mechanical. And the applications to be highly overrated and unrealistic when tested in sparring.





Well 1st of all, Chang Hon ITF Taekwon-Do is a SD Art form. In other words it is not only for SD. Therfore, it is accepted by most who truly understand the system, that not all that we do is practicle for SD. I find no problem with that. In fact, I have spent my entire adult lifetime, studying this Art. It has given me so much more than SD. That being said, there are of course many more activities dedciated solely or mostly to SD, like combat arts & MMAs. It really depends on what one seeks. However, they should have a correct understanding of what their system entails, so they can decide if it is a proper fit.

I don't know if I would say I hero worship Ambassador Choi. I do of course hold him in very high esteem. I am in awe of what he has created & how he was able to spread it so far & wide. I truly think that this spreading of a very standardized MA is truly without precident. I could be wrong, but no one has every given me an example that is better.

I have always found criticism to be very constructive. However, I am seeing more & more, that the criticism is put forth by those that have never met the man, studied under him or fully understand his system.

In fact, he describes the following as cult like. However, he adds that the Art is for development of the whole person, without regard to ones religion, creed, nationality, race or idealogy. The good living suggested by maintaining physical shape & tempered by the moral culture & TKD philosophy, is something that is neutral for all of the categories mentioned above.

Applications is also misunderstood. He put forth 3,200+ fundamental movements & taught that they should be applied to the situation at hand.

As far as the geo=political situation with the north & south, this is also mis-stated. We see that he went there in 1979. He was one of the 1st SKs to ever set foot on the Communsit soil of the north, post Korean War. In 1980, he introduced his style of TKD there. He slowly opened the doors & windows, letting sun in, long before the sunshine policy of the year 2000, that netted the Nobel Peace prize for the SK president Kim, Dae Jung.

It is not that TKD will solve their problems, because it won't. Rather, it is just one area of a vital few, that they share in common, which serves as a vehicle to engage in a dialogue. DIALOGUE is what contributes to peace.

In fact, many have heard of the nuke tests the north did. Well since then, there have been no (zero) (none) (0) (nada) (nyet) official talks between the 2 Koreas. However, last week, the 2 Koreas got together for the 1st time since the nuke test & talked. They did not talk about the nukes or anything like that.

Do you know what they talked about?

Early next week they will talk again!

Do you know about what?

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#300196 - 11/24/06 11:13 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I for one, am a contast critic of his Art & things that he has done. I feel that is healthy & required to grow & fully understand his system. He like all of us had flaws. I don't dwell on the flaws. I take the good that he offered & try to minimize my flaws & repeating his flaws. I think that is important no matter what activity we undertake. I do not get so hung up on the un-informed criticisms, unless they offer some valuable possibilty for betterment. For me, that is what it is all about, being better. So criticism warranted or not, informed or not, allows me an opportunity to gauge & reflect. If it adds to my progress, I would embrace it. Criticism can be a helpful tool, if one seeks the truth.

BTW:

Last week the 2 Koreas met for the 1st time since the nuke test & talked sports. They discussed fielding joint teams at the 2008 Olympics & other future events.

Next week, the ITF-NK & WTF will meet in Beijing to discuss technical intergration & administrative merger.

Certainly these talks will not solve the mutitude of problems that exists between them. To think so, demonstrates IMHO a lack of understanding. It defies logic, IMHO to think that TKD will re-unite the Country. TKD will just help move forward dialogue. The US Dept of State, IMHO agrees. Apparently, so does the ROKorea & the DPRKorea. I think they have more of an inside scoop then we do.

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#300197 - 11/24/06 03:43 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
Saizonic Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Wow, I completely agree with what you say StuartA. I've been training in ITF style Taekwon-Do for a while now, and an article like this is very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's people out there trying to clarify what Taekwon-Do is all about. I wonder why it seems the average person sees TKD as being so limited. But again thanks for putting your article out there. Hopefully it helps.


Edited by Saizonic (11/24/06 03:45 PM)
_________________________
ITF Taekwon-do: 1st Dan Black Belt

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#300198 - 11/24/06 10:57 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Saizonic]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think that some of the reasons are that there are so many TKD schools, that it can't help but get watered down. After a couple of students removed, the myths start to develop. It is compounded by real MA students who join TKD & are not happy with a watered down version, so they leave & seek a more SD based system. They repeat the myths & so on. JMHO

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#300199 - 11/25/06 04:18 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MasL]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Masl,
I appreciate (and agree) with much of what you're saying. The trouble is that 'facts' often get amplified in the telling until they are a distortion of the reality.

Quote:

It's ridiculous to suggest a past-time such as TKD could solve one of the world's major political problems




Granted, it seems ridiculous, but if we consider that one of the ways enemy nations can get together and meet each other is often through sports it isn't such a ridiculous idea. Perhaps TKD might have been seen as a way of opening a small hole where people could have contact. That's not too bad an idea. The only problem I can see (politics aside) is that SK predominatly practises WTF.

The ITF association with NK has actually made some people believe it is a NK style (as seen on this site).

Quote:

I always find it amusing how so many westerners try to turn some of these people into supermen.




Sorry, my friend, it aint just westerners... where do you think all these stories come from originally?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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