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#300140 - 11/09/06 01:38 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Umbra_777]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

My understanding/strategy is this:
When you are using your kicks to keep your opponent at range you keep your hands lower and your body loser in order to increase your spead and make it easyer to block kicks. If he moves in close to you then you bring your arms up and tuck your chin.




That just doesn't cut the mustard for me. I prefer to keep my hands up the whole time. When at longer range, your guard can be more mobile and looser, but you should still keep your hands up ready to guard any head shots.

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#300141 - 11/10/06 11:21 AM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

That just doesn't cut the mustard for me. I prefer to keep my hands up the whole time. When at longer range, your guard can be more mobile and looser, but you should still keep your hands up ready to guard any head shots.




Regarding the hands up thing, this isn't only in TKD but in other martial arts as well ... not to mention the sport of boxing. If you watch enough boxing, and I have, you will notice many a fighter who have unorthodox fighting styles and have their hands down. So this is not just something TKD is bad for.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#300142 - 11/10/06 02:51 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Dereck]
dinodude73 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 7
Loc: MN
Wow over 2000 hand strikes I had no idea there were that many, I guess I have alot of training ahead of me!
Great article thanks
_________________________
a focused mind is the most powerful force in the universe

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#300143 - 11/10/06 09:30 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: dinodude73]
TaekwondoWned Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.

-Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great. So what? The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills. The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky... You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.

-Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms? Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.

-Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.

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#300144 - 11/10/06 11:59 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Most strikes cannot be done in contact sparring because they hit vital areas of te body. pen and strikes can best be practiced as step sparring. Before you immediatly assume step sparring to be as formal as forms/patterns. There are many ways to alter step sparring. For one let go of the traditional stances and stand in a casual stance, second have your atacker attack in an upright stance which is more realistic.

Also keep in mind that in self defense it is very unlikely that the person acttacking you will be a trained fighter, there fore makesure you know how to read your opponenets body language. A non trained attacker will telegraph. Many ways to spot these things.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#300145 - 11/11/06 12:09 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.

-Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great. So what? The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills. The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky... You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.

-Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms? Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.

-Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.





I agree, but the mistake you make is putting the fault on the Art Form of Taekwon-Do. It is not the Art, IMHO that is wrong, but the student, instructor, training methods employed & the disregard of the training/advancement syllabus designed by the Founder, Ambassador Choi, Hong Hi.

One of the reasons that TKD gets a much deserved bad rap, as an effective SD system is that there are so many schools. It is the world's most popular MA. However, what most people see & train is NOT a MA, but rather a martial sport & babysitting service.

I think the way I believe Mr. Anslow trains his charges, is similiar to my understanding of the syllabus. I do think that if more people fully understood the Chang Hon or ITF syllabus, they would not have these critiques. The much deserved criticism should be placed on the instructors & groups that teach such a watered down version of a great MA.

A prime example of this is 1 step sparring. According to the syllabus, this is introduced at 6th gup green belt level. The OPPONENTS, not partners, do in fact take a relaxed stance facing each other. The attacker is required to strike to hit, without letting the opponent know it is coming. There is no 1st stepping back into another stance before attacker, you just attack & try to hit.
In addition, these 2000 hand techniques are to be trained against focus pads, heavy bags & live OPPONENTS under realistic conditions. I believe these are many of the same tactics employed in the combat Arts systems.

It has been my experience in over 30 years of study, spanning 4 decades, that it is the instructor, the false instructor, the ill or uneducated instructor who cheats their students by not following the syllabus of the Art, as designed by the Founder. This is compounded by the vast amount of schools that exists. This is true with most things that are mass produced. For example, find a great restrurant. Try to duplicate it & it is hard. Different Chef, harder to find the food products in certain areas, etc.
TKD's problem is further compounded by so much emphasis on sport fighting, which most of us know, does little for street SD.

This should not be construed to mean that TKD can be AS effective as a combat system of SD, where the entire emphasis is on SD. It is just common sense if one's focus is on 1 area, than that area will be more fully developed. I think that goes without saying.

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#300146 - 11/13/06 08:22 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.



Not that I agree with your first line as what do you based this conclusion on? As for not 'debunking' anything - it doesnt if you already know, but many dont hence myths become truths!

Quote:

Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great.



Actually it was TKD is mostly kicks - which many believe due to the sport kicking aspect. So debunked!

Quote:

The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills.



As I say in the book, I differeniate fighting from self defence. Fighting is what you end up doing if SD goes wrong!

Quote:

The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky...



This is competition and based on a rule set. I could just as easily say the kickings rubbish in boxing as that has a rule set too! You are talking sport, the article is talking martial arts!

Quote:

You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.



Yup, hence traditional sparring, hosinsul, pattern based sparring etc etc - there are many training methods to incorporate hand strikes!


Quote:

Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms?



Again, it says "TKD has no low kicks" - it doesnt say just in forms!

Quote:

Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.



Yup - mentions that in that section of the article!

Quote:

Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.



Again you refer to fighting - sparring is not fighting, sparring is sparring. And fighting is not self defence, fighting is what you end up doing when your self defence goes wrong!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300147 - 11/13/06 11:14 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
TaekwondoWned Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Quote:

Quote:

Moot.

As much as I love Taekwondo, its definitely less effective than the kickboxing/ring arts like boxing and muay thai. Im sure you guys like TKD also but you have to admit that this article didn't do much to debunk anything.



Not that I agree with your first line as what do you based this conclusion on? As for not 'debunking' anything - it doesnt if you already know, but many dont hence myths become truths!

Quote:

Taekwondo has hand strikes. Okay. Great.



Actually it was TKD is mostly kicks - which many believe due to the sport kicking aspect. So debunked!

Quote:

The problem w/ both ITF and WTF is that people train these hand strikes in forms. Training forms does nothing for your real fighting skills.



As I say in the book, I differeniate fighting from self defence. Fighting is what you end up doing if SD goes wrong!

Quote:

The ITF allows head punching. So what? The hand flailing, point-hungry punching style of the ITF isn't much better than teaching yourself boxing by watching Rocky...



This is competition and based on a rule set. I could just as easily say the kickings rubbish in boxing as that has a rule set too! You are talking sport, the article is talking martial arts!

Quote:

You need to train hand strikes in sparring to make it work.



Yup, hence traditional sparring, hosinsul, pattern based sparring etc etc - there are many training methods to incorporate hand strikes!


Quote:

Taekwondo does have low kicks in the forms?



Again, it says "TKD has no low kicks" - it doesnt say just in forms!

Quote:

Again. So what? Forms don't mean anything. You need to train forms in a realistic, live environment. Realistic, live environment = sparring.



Yup - mentions that in that section of the article!

Quote:

Forms aren't dead training? Please... You can memorize all the katas/poomsaes/hyungs in the world and do them a thousand times over each and you still wouldn't be a better fighter than somebody who spars correctly and realistically on a regular basis.



Again you refer to fighting - sparring is not fighting, sparring is sparring. And fighting is not self defence, fighting is what you end up doing when your self defence goes wrong!

Stuart




What are you talking about? I was debunking YOUR debunking. Stop being so naive.

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#300148 - 11/13/06 11:57 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: TaekwondoWned]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

What are you talking about? I was debunking YOUR debunking. Stop being so naive.



Naive - lol! That, I cannot assure I am not.
Good come back btw - not!

There area lot of misconceptions surrounding TKD, hence the article (which was an excert from a book on Ch'ang Hon TKD btw). Unfortunatly, though I am very open to all honest views, you actually didnt debunk the debunk, just twisted a few of the things around and made some comments!

Out of interest, what style do you practice?

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (11/14/06 12:11 AM)

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#300149 - 11/14/06 06:30 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: StuartA]
TaekwondoWned Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 8
Quote:

Quote:

What are you talking about? I was debunking YOUR debunking. Stop being so naive.



Naive - lol! That, I cannot assure I am not.
Good come back btw - not!

There area lot of misconceptions surrounding TKD, hence the article (which was an excert from a book on Ch'ang Hon TKD btw). Unfortunatly, though I am very open to all honest views, you actually didnt debunk the debunk, just twisted a few of the things around and made some comments!

Out of interest, what style do you practice?

Stuart




proud Taekwondo and Judo guy (hopefully BJJ will be added as well)

Look, all I'm saying is taekwondo as practiced by 95% of the tkd population and how its practiced generally in modern times is inferior to some other striking arts. If someone asked me to recommend a striking art I would not say TKD.

I would say kikcboxing, san shou, muay thai, or kyokushin karate or boxing

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