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#300130 - 11/08/06 04:15 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: butterfly]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Interesting read but it is one person's prospective and probably is written other ways by other people. However I can agree with most of this and after reading this I thank my lucky stars for where I train at.

We do have weapons but is only taught at black belt level and higher; Nunchucks. I however have already started this training back when I was a red belt so have been doing this for just over a year, though I have still a lot to accomplish and only have the basics. I believe due to the Hapkido influence this is why we have this in our curriculum, though it isn't too often.

On that thought, our training from our Instructor is from his Master from South Korea. This training is Taekwondo and Hapkido so does include the sweeps, throws and joint locks. I always assumed, and I still could be right, that this was more from the Hapkido portion as it also originally included basic grappling. We have expanded on this due to JJJ/BJJ but the basics were there prior. I was hoping to read that grappling was also a part of the original training. I do know of other schools that this is at 3rd Dan and higher as a part of the curriculum and testing, us included, though it is basics only for them whereas we do this from white belt level and higher.

Interesting enough but sad in other aspects. This just goes to prove just how watered down many schools are now.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#300131 - 11/08/06 04:18 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: butterfly]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Well, I guess I don't understand the qualifications to the myth busting article. TKD can be trained in just about any way you would like it to be under any banner as long as you call it TKD.




I agree with Brad, train it in any way you want with adding or deleting aspects as long as you keep the basics that makes it TKD and it remains TKD. Isn't that how most martial arts came to be? Started with something and then it was changed to be made better ... and in some cases worse, as a lot of TKD schools have proven. (Disclaimer, same can be said for any other martial art but this is a discussion about TKD only). Martial arts have evolved over time but they still remain tied to their basics which gave it their name.
_________________________
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#300132 - 11/08/06 08:09 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: butterfly]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Well, I guess I don't understand the qualifications to the myth busting article. TKD can be trained in just about any way you would like it to be under any banner as long as you call it TKD.



Firstly, the article refers only to the Ch'ang Hon style of TKD. Secondly, with that in mind, General Choi had his own ideas on how it should be trained so technically, changing these things is not an evolution but a bastardization (to a point). Just calling something TKD doesnt make it so.. I can call an apple an orange as it has many of the same charactoristics, but its still an apple!! What do you mean by "you dont understand the qualifications" - it is based on the how, whys and what TKD was originally designed for!!

Quote:

I am not saying TKD doesn't, or can't have the things suggested in the article. But the question still remains, how many folk in "your" particular school practice more with hand techniques than not?



We do!

Quote:

And that would be despite a larger quantity of described hand techniques than kicking?



Exactly one of the reasons!

Quote:

How do you spar taking these hand techniques into question?



Quite easily really.. even dangerouis techniques for senior students as they learn how to control them but still make them viable as a training technique.

Quote:

Do you allow throwing and grapping in the sparring?



Yes

Quote:

How many actually practice sparring using head contact and low leg kicks?



We do.

Quote:

How many practice full contact?



We do, but not all the time and only for adult senior grades

Quote:

How many practice with weapons?



We dont, though we do practice anti-weapons against knife, stick, short stick and occassionally gun (though I learnt it through a military combat instructor)

Quote:

If your school doesn't, then this myth busting article really isn't busting any myths.



Eh! Do you mean to say if you school does!!

Quote:

What I am pointing out is that the possibility of saying any art, regardless of what you call it, can be made to contain any quantity of techniques. However, the actual truth would be if you practiced what your preached.



Well we do, or else I would commit to print that we do!

Quote:

If you don't, then the myth busting article is not applicable....because the reasons for the myths still exist---at least for the ones not doing what the articles suggests might be possible.



Lost me there!!

Stuart
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"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300133 - 11/08/06 08:11 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: fileboy2002]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This is indeed and interesting article, and I am glad to see someone in the world has your apporach to TKD. If I ever travel to the UK, I would love to take part in some of your classes.



Welcome any time your in the UK

Quote:

My point is while all the features of TKD you outlined do exist, they only rarely practiced. The idea that TKD lacks these features is therefor often true at street level.



Yes it is, but its not TKD that is lacking, but the schools themselves that dont teach these parts!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300134 - 11/08/06 08:12 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: MattJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Very good article, Stuart. I was not aware that weapons training was not part of TKD - almost every school I have seen had some.



AFAIA, most schools that teach weapons are an add on - meaning the instructor has learnt them via a different art or more often has done a short course on them. They are and never were part of the Ch'ang Hon TKD system.

Quote:

Still not convinced on your kata/dead training argument, though.



Each to his own my friend.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300135 - 11/08/06 08:14 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: tkd_high_green]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Like you Matt, most of the tkd schools around here offer weapons training as well. Most of the tournaments have weapons competitions as well. Granted, I understand that weapons weren't originally part of TKD, but if most schools are teaching it now, then I would say that it has now become part of TKD.

Laura




Good observation Laura, but technically they havnt become part of TKD, just part of what schools offer to teach. We do groundwork, but its not part of TKD (and I dont bill it as such) - I teach it to make my students more complete. Other added things are there for varying reasons but they arnt part of TKD.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#300136 - 11/08/06 08:20 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: vegantkd]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This is a good article. And I also think that TKD, if taught to its fullness, is much more of a complete MA than most people think.



Yes indeed.

Quote:

1. How do you know Gen. Choi was opposed to tournaments?



Ive heard it from a number of 'in the know' sources and even read it in an old interview with the General. I mention the interviews in the book but havnt got the mags anymore sadly. Others (like Supremor) can verify as they have heard the same too. In fact I think it may be in one of his books (either his autobigraphy or the manuals of certain years)


Quote:

2. I don't have the encyclopedia yet but doesn't it cover the use of each technique? If so, what is the difference between the encyclopedia and the book that you wrote (I have never read that either so I'm just asking, not criticizing).



Supremor has done a good job of pointing out some of the differences, but even though the manuals show some applications, they are not always very good ones and not all patterns techniques are represented. The biggest thing of all is that the applications in the manuals are based on the thinking of block/strike, whereas my book delves much deeper into their origins where you find a block isnt really a block but a lock or release, or a throw etc etc. I guess the only way to really see the difference to to compare the two - perhaps someone who has both would like a bash at explaining this!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (11/08/06 08:34 PM)
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#300137 - 11/08/06 08:26 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Dereck]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Interesting read but it is one person's prospective and probably is written other ways by other people.



True, but the one person is the acknowledged arts founder (or main proponent of the art, syllabus designer, main comittee member - how ever you wish to view him).. I just pointed out things that many seem to have forgotton!

Quote:

We do have weapons but is only taught at black belt level and higher; Nunchucks.



Going back to the issues about weapons in TKD, 'chucks' are a Okinawa or chinese weapon I believe.. they are not even traditional korean weapons, hence they are an addition, not part of TKD (or even korean arts that I know of, even the ones that do teach weapons)

Quote:

On that thought, our training from our Instructor is from his Master from South Korea. This training is Taekwondo and Hapkido so does include the sweeps, throws and joint locks. I always assumed, and I still could be right, that this was more from the Hapkido portion as it also originally included basic grappling.



More than likely, as i believe the WTF has been expanding its fields via other influences for a while now and many WTF instructors are Hapkido trained as well. Like I said, I refer only to the Ch'ang Hon system which has all those elements included as standard (even if they have ceased to become standard anymore).

Quote:

Interesting enough but sad in other aspects. This just goes to prove just how watered down many schools are now.



Yes, yes, yes.. hence why I pointed out in the article ... "However, this is competition and many students and especially those who do not train in Taekwon-do can't dissimilate ‘this is competition' from ‘this is Taekwon-do'."

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (11/08/06 08:40 PM)

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#300138 - 11/09/06 12:28 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: vegantkd]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

This is a good article. And I also think that TKD, if taught to its fullness, is much more of a complete MA than most people think. It also takes a good teacher. I've had two Sabumnims in my TKD career and both of them were/are great teachers in that they do teach the complete art of TKD AND they are quite adaptative. Much like Bruce Lee's philosophy of discarding the useless and absorbing what's useful.
I do have a couple questions though.
1. How do you know Gen. Choi was opposed to tournaments?
2. I don't have the encyclopedia yet but doesn't it cover the use of each technique? If so, what is the difference between the encyclopedia and the book that you wrote (I have never read that either so I'm just asking, not criticizing).





Ambassador Choi was not so much OPPOSSED to tournaments. Rather he was aware of the limitations of tournaments with respect to self defence.He stated repeatedly, that tournaments rightfully concentrated on scoring points. Therefore, many techniques, due to safety, were eliminated. Also, since the object was to score points, players would concentrate on a few favorite techniques. He described this as cock fighting. It was one of the main reasons why he insisted that sparring did not take place in one's training till they were 4th gup blue belt. A fact often misunderstood & rarely followed.

He knew tournament sparring had a place in his Taekwon-Do, but asked that it was not confused with free sparring or HooSinSul.

As far as the books go, there is no comparision of the 15 Volume Encylopdia & Mr. Anslow's book. They are 2 entirely different books with much a different focus. The 15 volumes set is a documentation of his Art of Taekwon-Do, often called ITF TKD or more approriately (IMHO) called Chang Hon style of TKD. He did not cling to the older interpation or more original applications of the pattern techniques. He may not have even known them. He did of course offer very straight forward applications for HIS Tuls.

Mr. Anslow's really great book, a must IMHO, deals with some great topics, such as histroy, but mainly focuses on finding original or alternative applications for the moves of the 1st 7 Tuls. A really well done book, with great additions in the appendix etc.

The problem with TKD's much deserved poor reputation for self defense, has to do with its popularity. It is the worlds most popular MA. As such, it suffers from a very bad watering down. This has been made much worse from the political interference of governments, with regards to the black listing of ITF instructors & the corresponding flight from its syllabus. The creation of the WTF (1973) 7 years after the ITF (1966) was an early example. The push for its inclusion in the Olympics & its inclusion since 1988, has also led to an emphasis on one narrow aspect of a true modern Art of SD. Therefore we have many McDoJangs all over the place, that unfortanetly teach a very watered down sport, with the focus on a very narrow part of the Art.

ITF Tournaments have 5 areas of competition:
1-sparring
2-patterns
3-power
4-special techniques
5-pre-arranged fighting scenarios

Ambassador Choi, felt that competition should not focus only on sparring. He was fully supportive of full contact, but not so much with fighting. That is what the power test was for. He embraced the safety equipment, but wanted control, as that would allow more techniques to be used & would help prevent the match from turning into a slug-fest. He did not think that was an Art, nor was it visually pleasing for an audience.

As Mr. Anslow states & does in his school, this is what Taekwon-Do fighting should be. His more closely reflects what a true ITF school should do, following the key ingredient of the Founder, REALISM. If one follows this syllabus, they can't help but be a more rounded fighter.

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#300139 - 11/09/06 12:59 PM Re: Debunking Taekwon-Do Myths [Re: Stormdragon]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Quote:

Wh ydo they tell you to have oyur chin up and out and your hands down? And why do they never teach good punchign skills. One TKD instructor I've had taught great close range punching and boxing skills and he used to be a boxer but all the rest teach garbage. bah!




My understanding/strategy is this:
When you are using your kicks to keep your opponent at range you keep your hands lower and your body loser in order to increase your spead and make it easyer to block kicks. If he moves in close to you then you bring your arms up and tuck your chin.

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