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#299281 - 07/09/08 10:42 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
dothacker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
Quote:

I'll make this as clear and simple as i can. The Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan and their derivative systems are the ONLY systems of legitimate ninjutsu currently in practice today. Their core IS ninjutsu, they all referred to their arts as ninjutsu until recent years but even though they no longer tie them selves to the stig...



Alright, fine, those 3 are the only legitimate "Ninjutsu" teachers. I grow tired of this, literally. I have spent too much time on forums in the last while, the last few days I have trained to make up for it and yesterday I pushed too hard and felt ill. But I digress. I will not argue that topic any more.

Quote:

As for DTG, garbage. I've watched several of his clips and the techniques are laughable at best. He seems to have good intentions but he is doing more harm than good. You can NOT learn the martial arts by watching videos or reading books. They are good for informational purposes and references only. Tr...



I agree in full.

Quote:

I do have a question for you. If you aren't sure of the roots of your system of ninjutsu how are you so sure it's legit and are so adamant that the Bujinkan "isn't ninjutsu"? How long have you bee...



Well, I'm not sure there is anything I can say to make you understand my situation. I'm sure it sounds crazier to you than it does to myself in words, but then I have always been a poor explainer, I am best as a kinetic form of informer/learner. However, I can answer your question about bujinkan. I am so adamant because it cannot teach as done in
the non watered down version. By watered down I did not mean mixing in other arts, I mean that for legal reasons, as well as the fact that many of the lower class wouldn't even dream of doing some of the intense training, and the fact that their bodies are too old and already developed. Though this is not to say that bodies cannot change, just that certain things done in developing stages go into the core of the body and changes revolve around it. I don't know if this is a good example, but take a contortionist: given that their bodies weren't born with special genetics (which is very rarely the case), at some point in their childhoods they were flexing a lot, or, as they developed in the teen years they triggered the skill by moving in certain ways or doing certain things and that is how the body responded. I use this example because I am a contortionist to a decent degree, as a child I was a front bender meaning I could put my feet behind my head but at some point when I entered the teens I lost it. Within a few years during high school I developed back bending and I currently retain that skill. By
the way, for the most part, contortionists can bend only one way very well, there are exceptions however. Sorry, but I must end this, I wore out my arm with the shotput this morning and I need to rest for a bit.
_________________________
Death comes for us all. We can only chose how to face it when it comes. -Aviendha

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#299282 - 07/09/08 01:27 PM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
What about the other two questions? What is the name of your style and how long have you studied ninjutsu? They are very simple questions but mean the world in this discussion. They require no "explanation", just a name and a number of months or years. Due to you not answering i'm assuming the system you study isn't derived from one of the 3 only legitimate forms of ninjutsu.

Quote:

Alright, fine, those 3 are the only legitimate "Ninjutsu" teachers.




I didn't say that. I said there are only 3 legitimate systems of ninjutsu that all other legitimate instructors stem from.

Quote:

I will not argue that topic any more.




I don't want to "argue" any topic. I want to have a discussion about why you feel the Bujinkan and other legitimate schools of ninjutsu aren't really ninjutsu. You claim to study ninjutsu. If this is the case then i would like to know what the pure non-watered down form of the art is. My issue here is you are speaking very authoritatively about what ninjutsu is and isn't and who isn't teaching ninjutsu but your not offering any information on who is even though you claim to study it.

Quote:

I agree in full.




Then why are his videos plastered all over your youtube page and why do you have him listed as a "friend" on your youtube page?

Quote:

Well, I'm not sure there is anything I can say to make you understand my situation.




Sure there is. You can tell me the name of the system of ninjutsu you study is and how long you have been studying it. If you’re not actively taking lessons in person that's fine, just say so. I'm not trying to badger you. I'm only trying to gather information so i can understand why you have made the conclusions that you have.

Quote:

I am so adamant because it cannot teach as done in the non watered down version. By watered down I did not mean mixing in other arts,




How do you know? Have you studied in the Bujinkan? I think the problem with your perception of the Bujinkan is that you think they have combined all 9 ryu into one. This is far from the truth. Each ryu is taught as a separate art and all are distinguished from one another. This is one reason they have annual "themes". Each year there is a focus on a different ryu or in some cases 2 ryu. Often they will touch on something in another ryu but it's generally to emphasize something that is currently being practiced or to compare the differences. The only difference in studying Bujinkan and studying Togakure is that you aren't going to receive rank in Togakure specifically; it will be in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Only the name has changed, its still ninjutsu.

Quote:

I mean that for legal reasons




Legal reasons? Please explain.

Quote:

as well as the fact that many of the lower class wouldn't even dream of doing some of the intense training, and the fact that their bodies are too old and already developed.




Lower class? Do you mean junior ranks? Who are you referring to when you talk about "their bodies" are too old? What "intense" training are you referring to and how do you know it's not a part of the Bujinkan syllabus?

I'm sorry but i fail to see what being a contortionist has to do with why the Bujinkan isn't ninjutsu. I do have a bit of advice for you. If you are new to something, don't speak so authoritative about it unless you know what you are saying is a fact. If you have never studied in the Bujinkan for a good length of time it's going to be difficult for you to "know" what they teach. Honestly from what i have gathered from your posts it sounds like you have a very limited knowledge of ninjutsu and what knowledge you do have doesn't come from a legitimate ryu. It's not your fault, just what you were handed. You can get mad, call me names, leave the site..what ever. I just hope i have at least planted the seeds of doubt to drive you to look for answers yourself and ask the questions that need to be asked. If you want to continue to discuss this i'm here. All i ask is simple. What is your experience? Simply the name of your ryu will be a good start.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but it's not like i fell off the turnip truck last night. I'm been around the block a couple of times and have seen too many so called ninjutsu or ninjitsu schools/masters that couldn't provide a shred of proof they were even remotely legit.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#299283 - 07/09/08 07:04 PM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
dothacker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
Quote:

I don't want to "argue" any topic. I want to have a discussion about why you feel the Bujinkan and other legitimate schools of ninjutsu aren't really ninjutsu. You claim to study ninjutsu. If this is the case then i would like to know what the pure non-watered down form of the art is. My issue here is you are speaking very authoritatively about what ninjutsu is and isn't and who isn't teaching ninjutsu but your not offering any information on who is even though you claim to study it.



I don't recall ever stating I was able to study the pure art myself. I am sorry if I sound authoritative on the subject, but in reality I am not and I will admit that. I just don't like to see bujinkan considered as the "almighty end all ninjutsu answer" if that explains things a bit. I don't believe it is possible for a public school to attain true Ninjutsu. If it could, it would need to be VERY small classes of perhaps no more than 5-8 people. Teachers get sloppier the larger the class is, that is life. The smaller the class is, the more personal time they can devote to individual teaching and correcting minute details that make a world of difference. There are the mental aspects that often do not get taught in bujinkan much from what I've seen. Even less taught are the spiritual aspects.

Quote:

Then why are his videos plastered all over your youtube page and why do you have him listed as a "friend" on your youtube page?



You saw my opinion before I asked yours, you know that I am in agreement. If by "plastered" you mean a couple ratings of something I could adapt for useful fighting or something to show my friend Simon what he looks like fighting (he is my local sparring friend from school, he takes shotokan karate) then yes, it is. He is in my friend list because he is a friend of Houzan Suzuki, he teaches less fortunate (not just martial arts, he is very generous overall), and the least I can do is add him as a friend. I subscribed to his videos for the reason explained above.

Quote:

Sure there is. You can tell me the name of the system of ninjutsu you study is and how long you have been studying it. If you’re not actively taking lessons in person that's fine, just say so. I'm not trying to badger you. I'm only trying to gather information so i can understand why you have made the conclusions that you have.



The reason I do not state a name is because my teacher does private lessons only and as far as I know has no system name. The time I have spent with Ninjutsu is around 4 years.

Quote:

How do you know? Have you studied in the Bujinkan? I think the problem with your perception of the Bujinkan is that you think they have combined all 9 ryu into one. This is far from the truth. Each ryu is taught as a separate art and all are distinguished from one another...



No, I have not studied in the bujinkan. I was unaware of the themes and such, which does put them at a higher place in my regards, but I am sticking with my reasoning. This will explain the legal portion as well. For legal reasons, they cannot just go around and hand a heavy rock to their students and tell them to walk around underwater, just an example. I have yet to hear of such type of training in the bujinkan, but I have not studied with them so I cannot honestly say.

Quote:

Lower class? Do you mean junior ranks? Who are you referring to when you talk about "their bodies" are too old? What "intense" training are you referring to and how do you know it's not a part of the Bujinkan syllabus?

I'm sorry but i fail to see what being a...



Yes, junior is the word I was looking for, sorry. I thought I covered the whole body adaptation with age thing. It is biology, not speculation. I am referring to most of the students if not all. I think there is a minimum age you need to be to join bujinkan and I don't think they would teach say, a 9 year old standard techniques. As you may know, samurai were not the only warriors taught at young ages, it was common practice all around the world. The contortion, again, relates in the way of the body's adaptation properties as described. I am not mad, I do not call names, and I may leave the site for reasons of time constraints if anything. That assumption is at least slightly rude if meant in the way it was presented, but given the benefit of the doubt. On the topic of doubt, there are no needs for seeds to be planted, I take what I am handed as you put it and challenge it, I always strive to know what I can. Heck, I'll admit, at some point WAY early in my training I was believing ashida kim but that did not last long, I do try to research what I can and I do thank you for trying at least to get your point across. I would be happy to learn what you have to teach in pm sometime if you would teach it. I do agree that there are many illegitimate impostors around, they grind my gears plenty. Blah, to be honest I am still tired, but I did get a bit of a nap. You may choose to continue this here or in pm if you like.
_________________________
Death comes for us all. We can only chose how to face it when it comes. -Aviendha

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#299284 - 07/10/08 06:04 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Ok, time for a bit of a reality check here. Please understand though I’m not trying to pick on you or put you down. The simple fact is what YOU think or believe about ninjutsu and/or the Bujinkan has absolutely NO bearing on what either of them is. From the comments you have made both here and on your own forum it’s obvious you don’t really have any exposure to any legit form of ninjutsu outside of reading books, videos and your own assumptions. Your “instructor” only giving private lessons is a poor excuse for not wanting to give the name of the ryu but at this point it makes no difference. You have some odd assumptions on what constitutes ninjutsu instruction. Training doesn’t have to be extreme as you may have read about in the old days. There are modern training techniques that are safer and achieve the same results. What do you think the purpose of “holding a rock and walking underwater” is? What benefit do you think you get from it?

Quote:

I don't recall ever stating I was able to study the pure art myself.




You didn’t but when you make a statement like “Bujinkan isn’t pure ninjutsu so you can’t call it ninjutsu” it leads to the belief that you only refer to pure forms of the art as ninjutsu. If this is the case and you claim to study “ninjutsu” I’m only left to believe that you think your art is the pure form. Since you can’t produce a name for the art or any other information for that matter I can only assume this is a situation of you or one of your teenage buddies have made up your own training.

Quote:

I just don't like to see bujinkan considered as the "almighty end all ninjutsu answer" if that explains things a bit.




Why if you admittedly know little to nothing about the Bujinkan? I hate to burst your bubble but in a way it is. Here is the gist of it. Takamatsu is known to be the last of the “true ninja” with him being the inheritor of the only 3 forms of ninjutsu to not die out. Hatsumi trained under Takamatsu and inherited the 3 ryu from him. Tanemura, Manaka and Hayes were all students of Hatsumi. Tanemura went on to develop the Genbukan using the same 3 ryu in addition to other arts he had studied just as Manaka did. Hayes teaches his own adaptation of the Bujinkan arts. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is just the “umbrella” name for the 9 arts that are taught. Every legitimate ninjutsu school there is has trained under one of these groups or at the very least can trace their art back to Takamatsu. So basically the Bujinkan is where the river of ninjutsu forked and Takamatsu was the spring.

Quote:

I don't believe it is possible for a public school to attain true Ninjutsu. If it could, it would need to be VERY small classes of perhaps no more than 5-8 people.




This is a personal opinion and has no bearing or in no way changes what the Bujinkan actually IS. Additionally if this is partly what you base your opinion of the Bujinkan on then it’s obvious you have had no exposure to the Bujinkan or any form of structured instruction for that matter. Most Bujinkan dojos are small, there are some with more students but for the most part they are a smaller tight knit group. Most I have seen generally had no more than 5-10 students at any given time. Having more students doesn’t always detract from the quality of instruction, in some ways it enhances it.

Quote:

Teachers get sloppier the larger the class is, that is life. The smaller the class is, the more personal time they can devote to individual teaching and correcting minute details that make a world of difference.




You know this for a fact then? This is what I mean by you coming across as “authoritative”. You make statements like this but yet from what I can tell you have only had what you say is 4 years of exposure to a style that has no name which is taught most likely by a teenager with little more experience than you have.

Quote:

There are the mental aspects that often do not get taught in bujinkan much from what I've seen. Even less taught are the spiritual aspects.




Again, you know this how? You have already said you actually know very little about the Bujinkan. How do you know what they teach? Before you continue to preach about what the Bujinkan isn’t why don’t you take the time to do some research on what it IS.? You can start by looking up the Sakki test which is required for ALL 5th dans.

Quote:

they cannot just go around and hand a heavy rock to their students and tell them to walk around underwater, just an example. I have yet to hear of such type of training in the Bujinkan




Let me get this straight. You don’t feel the Bujinkan, which teaches the only 3 true surviving ninjutsu ryu, is ninjutsu because they don’t use training methods that YOU THINK are training methods used in ninjutsu?

As for age restriction and body conditioning, the Bujinkan primarily has age restrictions because in many cases teaching young kids means lowering standards in order to keep students and they prefer a certain level of maturity you rarely get from a 10yr old. Yes in the “old days” people often started training at a young age and most likely received very similar training to that of their older counterparts. The days of this being a necessity are long gone. The martial arts no longer serve the same purpose they did in feudal Japan. For the most part, with some exceptions, they are a hobby, stress relief, exercise or a supplemental stand by for some jobs.

Quote:

I am not mad, I do not call names, and I may leave the site for reasons of time constraints if anything. That assumption is at least slightly rude if meant in the way it was presented, but given the benefit of the doubt.




Wasn’t trying to be rude, it’s a matter of experience. Most people your age tend to blow up when their beliefs are confronted from a different view point. Understand I’m not trying to put you down for being a teenager, I understand the mentality at that age. You (in general not you specifically) want the original form; believe it’s best to train the way they did in the old days. The training was somehow better then. You want to make all your training equipment and weapons yourself as if it will somehow make them better than store bought. You’re filled with fantasies of being a real ninja and because current systems don’t fit what you BELIEVE they should be you reject them. As you get older, gain more experience and greater exposure to other arts you begin to realize things are different than what you once believed. Hell when I was about your age I was the same way. I have been taken in by shisters in the past and it caused me to take a much harder look at things. After more than 20 years of training and traveling I don’t think there is a scam I haven’t seen.

All I ask is that you don’t take everything handed to you as gospel. Research things on your own, I don’t even expect you to take my word for anything. All I want to do is possibly get you to start asking questions. Early on it’s much easier to ask for opinions on boards like this one or E-budo or Kutaki.org. At some point it’s a good idea to hook up with a legitimate instructor that can prove his training and experience. Not all Bujinkan instructors have schools; there are several who just run training groups of about 4 or 5 people for free.

If you have any questions I’ll answer anything I can.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#299285 - 07/11/08 12:57 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
dothacker Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 28
Loc: USA
Quote:

Ok, time for a bit of a reality check here. Please understand though I’m not trying to pick on you or put you down. The simple fact is what YOU think or believe about ninjutsu and/or the Bujinkan has absolutely NO bearing on what either of th...



I am aware that my opinions do not change what things are. As for my comments on my forum, may I ask for an example? If you are referring to this thread then you didn't understand that that was one of the salvaging threads from another forum (hence the link and the "Summarized from this thread:" part) and that I personally did not write that. I merely summarized all the posts of that thread. I did not say modern training cannot be less extreme, I only said it was not pure, pure used in the sense that it is unaltered [from it's original form] which does sound slightly contradictory when we both know Ninjutsu evolves but the grammar infers unchanged from the time of active usage if you will. There are several purposes for holding a rock under water, it teaches you to hold your breath better, it teaches you to have more endurance without oxygen, it imitates a certain tool which is displayed in the Ninpiden, it can be used to escape trailing enemies as well as to enter places via a waterway as well as many other purposes in suiton jutsu.

Quote:

You didn’t but when you make a statement like “Bujinkan isn’t pure ninjutsu so you can’t call it ninjutsu” it leads to the belief that you only refer to pure ...



You know the saying about assuming. And again, that teenager comment is not only rude, but it goes against your comment above stating you were not picking on me and such.

Quote:

Why if you admittedly know little to nothing about the Buji...



I may not know much about formal bujinkan and their classes, but I do know a bit of their history. I do believe I mentioned how I have used some of their resources back in
my early days and that I am not against them as a whole, I do like them, I just reserve my right to think of them as I will for now until some point in time which I am presented something which will change my opinion, which could be something near or far and simple or complicated, I dunno. haha

Quote:

This is a personal opinion and has no bearing or in no way changes what the Bujinkan actually IS. Additionally if this is partly what you base your opinion of t...



Yes, it is an opinion and again, I have my right to it I am not forcing you to follow me here. Also, you are being just a little too smug to say how "obvious" something is when you have never known me and are basing too much on a few words. My opinion of bujinkan dojos comes from my brief visits into a few and a few emails I have sent to the closest dojos around. They are slightly crowded in the way that they are more than 10-15 students. You have to understand that my area is rather crowded and that's just life in and near cities. I have no other view upon bujinkan other than what I can base from what I see of them. Some ways, I can see how it enhances, but people learn differently so it really depends on what the majority of students learn best with.

Quote:

You know this for a fact then? This is what I mean by you coming across as “authoritative”. You make statements like this but yet from w...



I cannot call it a fact since I do not know every teacher of every subject in the world, but my claim was based on comments made by teachers word for word to me, and by observing teachers in classes. This was not a statement just intended for martial artist teachers, but toward all subjects of teachers, so I have much more than 4 years dealing with teachers. My instructor is much older than I am and I would thank you not to say such things to insult people you have not met. If anything, it is my fault for not
explaining him in any better way than I can, so you have no reason to say such things.

Quote:

Again, you know this how? You have already said you actually know very little about the Bujinkan. How do you know what they teach? Before you continue to preach about what the Bujinkan isn’t why don’t you take the time to do some res...



It is stated with the words "what I've seen" which implies that I am not stating a fact, just an observation from local sources. I do know about the sakki test but that is not a common taught thing to all students until they are up in level and still, one drop in a bucket as the saying goes. Again, this is local, I cannot say how things are in other areas.

Quote:

Let me get this straight. You don’t feel the Bujinkan, which teaches the only 3 true surviving ninjutsu ryu, is ninjutsu because they don’t use training methods that YOU THINK are training methods used in ninjutsu?...



I would suppose that does sound a little biased on your end, but it is not just my opinion, I have read as much of old reference manuals such as the bansenshukai, ninpiden, etc. as well as seen some stuff from museums (some are dubious, but not all), and from what I can sort out, historian data over the years. But still, that doesn't make me right, it is just what I have learned. If you can prove me things, I am all for correcting flaws in what I know, but sitting here making claims and having this debate is getting me nowhere, now is it? You may send me links to references or post excerpts from books (citing resources of course) and anything else that you consider proof in pm and we will straighten things up there, this thread has become nothing more than a debate and furthering such will only cause more confusion on both parties. I agree, the youth of today in general is lacking maturity, I deal with all kinds of drama in public haha. :rolleyes: But I still stand with the biology portion of age. However, if as you say, people are not concerned with extremes as they were back then, then I will stand on your side and say that the biology portion does not matter.

Quote:

Wasn’t trying to be rude, it’s a matter of experience. Most people your age tend to blow up when their beliefs are confronted from a different view point. Understand I’m not trying to put you down for being a teenager, I understand the mentality at tha...



Trying or not, it does come across. :P I agree, as stated above, with the level of maturity. Kids and adults alike can lack maturity at the same levels. I do agree with the fanciful ideals that you speak of, but I am asking you take my word this is not the case of myself. However, since this debate does in fact exist and you stated above that you think I am just some crazy teen learning from a fool other teen, I am sure my word about that is worth less than a rotten bail of hay. I do not take everything as gospel, I do challenge my instructor (and I must admit he does not like it when I catch him up in a flaw, even when it is not on purpose) and the things I read, hear and observe. However, lack of funds, large travel distance (appx 2 1/2 hours to the closest bujinkan) and other aspects prevent me from visiting too many places in person, except the occasional travel through town. I am a member of both ebudo and kutaki though in my opinion ebudo isn't as great as kutaki, but that may just be a crowding factor...kutakians are more polite and more informed I think haha.

If you wish to answer questions, as I've mentioned in the last post and this one, I would take it to pm and get into more detail. Now if this thread is done, I will pm you something in a few days, it is rather hectic on my end, you understand. But feel free to pm me first and we will talk about that and when I send mine, it will have been after a bit more research of my own and questions I didn't even know I had. Thanks.

*edit* Darn unicode spacing removal.


Edited by dothacker (07/11/08 01:07 AM)
_________________________
Death comes for us all. We can only chose how to face it when it comes. -Aviendha

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#299286 - 07/11/08 09:44 AM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I want to address my comments about your age which you have taken as being rude. That’s not how they were intended so maybe a little clarification is needed. My point was i understand the mentality towards many things, in this case the martial arts specifically, that many teens have. I wasn't referring to you specifically so no i'm not picking on you. A simple "fact of life" as you say is that younger people tend to think they have things all figured out and those who are older with more experience just don't understand their point of view or insights. What you figure out as you get older and gain more experience is that you knew a lot less than you thought. There is nothing wrong with this, it's a natural course of life and is expected. A teen’s general reaction to someone challenging their beliefs is to take offense or rebel against them which is why i made the comment about you getting mad, flying off the handle and so on. Because it's typical, it's not always the case but it is a majority of the time.

Let’s keep in mind now that i didn't arbitrarily pick this topic to reply to. You sought me out, asked me to look at your posts and asked for my input. Were you looking for some kind of validation? For you to have messaged me with this request i would be led to believe that you at least read some of my previous posts on this subject so you should have had an idea of how i would react. You want truth about ninjutsu, i give it to you. Hopefully after reading this post you will have a better understanding of what i'm saying and where i see the disconnect in your logic on some issues.

I’ll start with assumptions and rudeness. You say it’s rude of me to state that you are a teen with little to no experience. What about your statements about the Bujinkan, Genbukan and other systems of ninjutsu with documented proof of their ninjutsu lineage? You don’t think it’s rude to state as a matter of fact that these schools are NOT ninjutsu simply because they don’t fit your definition? Yet you claim to study “ninjutsu” with out knowing the name, history or origins of your art? In your belief only the “pure” form of the art should be called ninjutsu leaving out the Bujinkan and others but yet the art you practice (with no known information of how it’s connected to ninjutsu) can be?

Now let’s look at your belief of what ninjutsu is. You reference a couple of documents I’m familiar with and I understand how you may think “real” or “pure” ninjutsu is or should be. But if you’re basing your belief on say the bansenshukai then you are never going to find “real” ninjutsu. How do you know the methods in this text are of the pure art? Do you honestly believe the training techniques of Togakure didn’t change between the 1100’s when it was developed and 1676 when the text was written? Which would be the “pure” art? The original from the 1100’s or the modified form from the late 1600’s? You see less time has elapsed from the time this text was written to today than between the origin of Togakure and the time it was written. Did you know the Genbukan also reference this text as does the Bujinkand? Are you seeing my point here? No art ever stays exactly the same even with koryu, there is always some deviation.

Quote:

I do know about the sakki test but that is not a common taught thing to all students until they are up in level and still, one drop in a bucket as the saying goes.




Not a common taught thing? At which point do you believe they start preparing one for the Sakki test? At 3rd dan? 4th dan? Perhaps some start feeding you pieces early on but don’t let on that they are until later? Maybe some feel you need to acquire certain “physical” basics before moving on to something more advanced? Did you know that in Kamiyama ninjutsu (a Bujinkan derivative) that the Sakki test is performed at every dan level, not just Godan? Like I said, you have made your own assumptions and based them off of very little knowledge. You have wedged this belief between you and the Bujinkan and you only know what you have seen or been told about a hand full of schools. I’ll tell you a secret, there are no structured rank guidelines in the Bujinkan prior to Godan. A shidoshi may rank and instruct their students in any manner they please provided they are prepared for Godan when they say they are. The only real constant are the annual themes, these are mostly for the participants of Taikai so everyone is working roughly on the same thing when they meet. Why do schools have to START with the “cool” stuff to be “pure”? Just like any art you need to learn the physical mechanics (basics) in order to have the proper foundation to build on.

As for the training methods? How often to you expect to need to enter a building via an underwater entrance? What in your daily life will put you in a situation to evade attackers by walking under water? Yes these things were a part of ninjutsu in the 1600s, because at the time there was a need for them. Today there is no need for much of that sort of training. Contrary to your beliefs a lot of these things are still discussed in the Kans, they just don’t receive the attention they did when such skill were actually needed. Today there are other ways, safer ways, of increasing your endurance and lung capacity without the danger of drowning. If you are in a job that requires you to have such skills then you will be taught them. There is a lot of training in BUDs for “drown proofing” because they need it. Like any other art ninjutsu has evolved into the current arts seen today in the form of Togakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken, Gyokushi-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken and Kumogakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken. Historian data, museum artifacts and old texts? You have the same information I have, the issue is more with your interpretation or your “assumption” of what ninjutsu should be. I’m familiar with the Basenshukai and ninpiden, I’ve been to Iga Ueno and visited the ninja museum and I’ve spoken with several historians and have done quite a bit of research of my own. My first exposure to the art was when I was about your age in the late 80s early 90s. It means nothing if you don’t understand the difference between what was and what is. That is what ninjutsu was, not anymore. If you want to waste time on out dated training methods to obtain skills that are neither needed or practical that’s fine. My preference is to focus on training that will serve more practical needs while maintaining an understanding of the old ways for their historical value.

Quote:

Yes, it is an opinion and again, I have my right to it I am not forcing you to follow me here.




An opinion is one thing but you haven’t been voicing an opinion, you have been making statements of “fact”.

Quote:

I figured I would post the guidelines because some are for etiquette that does apply to Ninjutsu, even though Bujinkan is NOT Ninjutsu, but rather Budo Taijutsu. Below are the guidelines as described by Masaaki Hatsumi.




How does this come across as opinion? Again don’t you see how disrespectful it is to Hatsumi, Manaka, Tanemura and all the other practitioners of these arts to lay such a claim on them with out really knowing anything about the systems? Yes this does involve the Genbukan and Jinenkan since both were students of Hatsumi and both incorporate the same 3, the only legit 3, forms of ninjutsu in their system. Yes I fully understand about your “ninja misconceptions” post and knew you didn’t write the entire thing but it would appear you share the same belief since the statement about the various Kans mirrored your statements of the Bujinkan.

Quote:

My instructor is much older than I am and I would thank you not to say such things to insult people you have not met.




How was that “insulting”? I didn’t say your instructor was a teen with no experience. I said it’s most likely that he is a teen with little more experience than you. This is derived from your lack of either ability or refusal to answer basic questions about your ninjutsu training. On the topic of teaching and student base, your assumptions are only partially true and depend on the material being covered and the desired out come. I’ve done my time as an instructor for both the martial arts and the Navy and have been through the Navy’s instructor training course. There are benefits and downfalls on both sides of the coin. A good instructor can handle a larger student base of 20-25 students and still be able to provide one on one support for those students. In a competitive based learning environment like the martial arts it’s better in some cases to have more students in order to learn to apply your skills to a larger variety of people.

Honestly if you want to believe only elephants in pink tutus can practice ninjutsu its fine. But eventually you will see my point and understand that it’s not all about “what they did in the old days”. No matter how hard you try you will never be a “ninja”, they don’t exist anymore. The closest you will ever come is to join the CIA or military spec warfare, but training in the “pure” way isn’t going to make you a ninja. Just as there are no more Samurai and never will be. Again if you’re not under the instruction of a legitimate ninjutsu instructor then you are just playing ninja. But please if you could ask your instructor specifically where his art came from. I would love to know.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#299287 - 07/17/08 04:17 PM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: laf7773]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Play nice please people.

If there's name calling and other insulting behaviour I will lock this thread.

Remember it is a discussion forum so please keep it to that.
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#299288 - 07/18/08 04:34 PM Re: Shoge Durability [Re: dothacker]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Quote:

First off, Bujinkan is not Ninjutsu, it is Budo Taijutsu, but that is an argument I would not like started here.




It's a good thing you don't want to start that. Oh, wait, you did start this didn't you? If you really don't want to start an argument about something... don't comment on it at all. It's like saying, "Well, the Christian God is not the REAL God... but I don't want to start that argument." How can the opposition let that fly? They can't. So, the argument begins; and it was started by you in making that comment.

If you truly don't want a discussion on a given controversial subject then don't mention it.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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